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  • FIRST POST
    • sidvinnon
    • By sidvinnon 6th Apr 17, 2:10 PM
    • 26Posts
    • 19Thanks
    sidvinnon
    ParkingEye @ ASDA, Brighton Marina - POPLA help please!
    • #1
    • 6th Apr 17, 2:10 PM
    ParkingEye @ ASDA, Brighton Marina - POPLA help please! 6th Apr 17 at 2:10 PM
    Hi,

    I got a PCN recently after the driver of the car overstayed a 3 hour max stay by 45 minutes at ASDA car park in Brighton Marina, a 24-hour store. It does mention POFA and 29 days etc. The visit was on a Friday evening in the dark.

    The driver had absolutely no idea there were restrictions in place in the car park! The driver has been using it for years, primarily in the dark when also visiting a restaurant and/or going to the cinema and not once has the driver noticed any signs, neither has the driver's girlfriend. On this particular evening the driver parked, walked through a tunnel away from the store and to a restaurant. From here they went back to the store - the route back to the store has zero signs on the way. Upon leaving the store after purchasing some snacks for the cinema amongst other things, the driver walked back to the car to drop off some of the shopping, this route goes past the one and only sign that mentions the parking charge and shows the terms, and it is not in a clear position and is not lit up at night.

    I appealed to PE which of course was rejected.

    I emailed the CEO of ASDA with no reply.

    I spoke to the store manager in ASDA who said they would not cancel and could not even if they wanted to, they said something about never being able to cancel a PCN unless it was for a blue badge holder...

    I have not named the driver of the vehicle at any point.

    The below images show how bad/non-existent the warnings are (sorry, as I'm new I can't post the image links directly, you'll need to copy and paste):

    This is the sign at the entrance to the car park. I took this on foot, visibility would be even worse inside the car in the dark as it is not lit up.
    i.imgur.com/cb1XSvM.jpg

    This is taken from the same parking space the driver used. They walked from here directly through the tunnel to the restaurant and later on the cinema.
    i.imgur. com/CETAWcK.jpg

    This is the first sign seen walking from the store to the car, it is not a parking notice sign.
    i.imgur. com/S4YhipC.jpg

    This is the only sign with the terms on that was walked past, at a crossing where attention would be on crossing the road safely and not the sign. Even then, it is not at eye level and there is no illumination meaning it would be unreadable in the dark.
    i.imgur. com/A40dwQ2.jpg

    Lastly, here is the actual sign they use - This was on a wall about 20 metres from where the driver parked, again it isn't lit up and was not walked past.
    i.imgur.com/jdI0esV.jpg

    I could do with some help from the kind souls that frequent this forum in writing the POPLA appeal, primarily I would like some guidance on what I should and shouldn't include. I have read the NEWBIE thread and looked at some templates and successful appeals. I'm hesitant to copy the templates/successful appeals word for word but also don't want to amend them too much in fear of making them less effective.

    The obvious main point to me is signage, as it is legitimately the reason I have this PCN, it is clearly not adequate.

    Thanks
    Last edited by sidvinnon; 06-04-2017 at 3:16 PM.
Page 3
    • keepitlegal
    • By keepitlegal 2nd Jun 17, 1:11 PM
    • 201 Posts
    • 179 Thanks
    keepitlegal
    I've written the following as my response to the PE evidence, it's due in to POPLA today. Unfortunately I couldn't make time to go there at night time, but I did take some photos and videos in the glorious sunshine yesterday. I think this adds a bit of weight in that even in daytime with high visibility there is still insufficient/no signage in many parts of the car park.

    1. Parking Eye Ltd, herein referred to as PE, have provided photos Brm17aS/s and Brm17S/s that fail to show the entrance sign that was present on the evening of 18/03/2017, instead they show a sign that did not exist then and does not exist now. The following video recorded on 01/06/2017 demonstrates this: https://vimeo.com/219986112. PE have provided no proof of the signage that was present on the evening of the event.

    2. Contrary to the PE claims that 'There is sufficient ambient lighting on site' and 'As the images show, the vehicle had its headlights on. This would have rendered the signs in the car park, of which there are many, visible.' the entrance sign is not illuminated by car headlights, as can be seen in the following video recorded on 13/04/2017: https://vimeo.com/219986221

    3. The driver of the vehicle parked in an area situated under the flyover road that serves as the entrance to Brighton Marina. This area has ample parking spaces. The only parking related sign that the driver passed on the route to their parking space was the insufficient entrance sign. The PE aerial 'Signage Layout Plan' confirms this, as well as the previously mentioned two videos and the following still images taken in broad daylight: http://imgur.com/a/lHAHm

    4. The following images demonstrate the absence of signs in the area where the vehicle was parked: http://imgur.com/a/ObvEu. It is entirely possible for a driver to enter this area and park their car before using the 'cinema this way' tunnel to exit the car park without seeing any parking related signs and therefore being completely unaware of any restrictions in place.

    5. All of the supplied PE photographs are taken in broad daylight, which do not give a fair representation of the conditions experienced by the driver on the evening of the event.

    6. PE images of the signs demonstrate how small and hard to read their terms and conditions are. Many of their signs that contain the terms and conditions are placed over 10 feet high on poles with insufficient lighting afforded to them. This makes it impossible to read them without the use of a ladder and light source.

    7. PE terms state that an extension to the 3 hour limit may be agreed with a customer service colleague in the store. PE have not provided evidence that the driver of the car was not given such an extension.

    8. PE provide a Witness Statement that does not specify the exact event or specific vehicle that this appeal refers to. Only the date of the event is supplied which is not sufficient as there may have been multiple events involving multiple vehicles on this particular date.

    9. Additionally the Witness Statement has no signature from the supposed witness, only a typed name.

    10. PE have failed to respond to section 4 in the original appeal regarding signs notifying of new restrictions and obtaining advertising consent, therefore it can only be assumed that PE did not adhere to BPA rules and furthermore broke the law.

    Does anyone have any last minute comments?l

    Thanks
    Originally posted by sidvinnon
    Last minute comment.
    Email sean.clarke@asda.co.uk tell him your have some questions regarding parking at one of their stores, ask to be passed onto Jonjo in executive customer relations, then TELL (don't ask) Jonjo to sort this out immediately, tell him that he has been made aware that the parking signs in their car parks require advertising permission from the local planning department, tell him that Asda are jointly responsible for this permission and they are breaking the law with it, i have personally pointed this out to him.
    Then report the matter to your council planning department, tell them they don't have advertising permission, they may try to fob you off saying permission is not required, if that happens come back on here, I will help you get the planners on your side.
    I intend to carry on being a pita for Asda, I haven't finished my 'discussions' with them but when I do it's going to the press, both local and national.
    I'm out of the country from tomorrow for a week or so, not sure if I'll have Internet so if I've gone quiet that's why.
    Good luck.
    Keepitlegal
    Edit. I think it's best not to mention this site or any posts you have made on here.
    Last edited by keepitlegal; 02-06-2017 at 1:14 PM.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 2nd Jun 17, 1:46 PM
    • 50,082 Posts
    • 63,470 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    The PE aerial 'Signage Layout Plan' confirms this,
    I would change that to:

    The PE aerial 'Signage Layout Plan' fails to even show the under-road car park area on the left as a car drives in. The 'aerial view' provided by the operator suggests no such parking spaces exist!

    The fact is, they do; it is part of Asda's car park (as my videos prove) and yet PE pretend the entire area does not exist (and it is not signed, as shown by my video evidence).
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • sidvinnon
    • By sidvinnon 2nd Jun 17, 1:56 PM
    • 26 Posts
    • 19 Thanks
    sidvinnon
    I would change that to:
    Originally posted by Coupon-mad
    Would you remove the link to the photos or keep it in?

    Thanks
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 2nd Jun 17, 2:14 PM
    • 50,082 Posts
    • 63,470 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Leave in the best ones, this one is great as it shows the unsigned under-road area:

    http://imgur.com/a/ObvEu
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • sidvinnon
    • By sidvinnon 2nd Jun 17, 2:15 PM
    • 26 Posts
    • 19 Thanks
    sidvinnon
    Thanks again, will send it over to POPLA now. Fingers crossed they see sense!
    • sidvinnon
    • By sidvinnon 12th Sep 17, 3:56 PM
    • 26 Posts
    • 19 Thanks
    sidvinnon
    So I won! Sorry it's taken so long to update the thread, I've had many things going on in my life lately and have hardly had any time for admin duties.

    Thanks every so much to those that offered help, especially Coupon-mad and fruitcake.

    Decision Successful
    Assessor Name XXX
    Assessor summary of operator case
    The operator issued a Parking Charge Notice (PCN) to the appellant due to remaining at the car park for longer than the stay authorised or without authorisation.

    Assessor summary of your case
    The appellant states the signs in the car park are not prominent, clear or legible; there is insufficient notice of the amount of the PCN. The operator has not demonstrated the person they are pursing is the driver of the vehicle. The operator has questioned the operator’s authority to operate on the land. The site is new car park to Parking Eye, no signs warning of the new restrictions and no advertising consent for new signs. Signs fail to warn drivers what the Automatic Number Plate Recognition (ANPR) cameras data will be used for, which the appellant states is a breach of the British Parking Association (BPA) Code of Practice.

    Assessor supporting rational for decision
    The signage at the site states, “3 hours max stay. Failure to comply with the terms and conditions will result in a Parking Charge of £70”. The site operates ANPR, the motorist’s vehicle registration, XXXX XXX, was captured entering the site at 19:00, exiting at 22:43; the period of stay was three hours 43 minutes, an over stay of the maximum permitted time of 43 minutes. The operator issued a PCN to the appellant due to remaining at the car park for longer than the stay authorised or without authorisation. POPLA is an evidence-based appeals service. All appeals are decided using the evidence and statements from the appellant and operator and the BPA Code of Practice. When assessing an appeal the burden of proof lies with the operator and it is the operator’s responsibility to provide sufficient evidence in rebuttal of the appellant’s statement. Section 18.11 of the BPA Code of Practice states, “Where there is any change in the terms and conditions that materially affects the motorist then you should make these clear on your signage. Where such changes impose liability where none previously existed then you should consider a grace period to allow regular visitors to the site to adjust and familiarise themselves with the changes”. Consequently, it is reasonable to expect the operator to provide evidence that demonstrates that the signage was in place before the alleged contravention and evidence that the appellant has been allowed a reasonable grace period to become familiar with the changes. The operator has provided a series of photographs from the site, they have been date and time stamped, however this appears to have been added after the photographs have been taken, accordingly I am uncertain the signage was in place on the day of the contravention. As such, I cannot conclude that the PCN was issued correctly. I note the appellant has raised other issues as grounds of appeal. However, as I have allowed the appeal for this reason, I did not consider them. Accordingly, I must allow the appeal.
    • beamerguy
    • By beamerguy 12th Sep 17, 4:07 PM
    • 5,962 Posts
    • 7,682 Thanks
    beamerguy
    Well done

    Please also pop into the thread for POPLA decisions

    Coupon-mad will be thrilled skinny

    "The operator has provided a series of photographs from the site, they have been date and time stamped, however this appears to have been added after the photographs have been taken"

    Are PE doing another UKPC one must ask

    A serious point to ask the BPA and the DVLA about
    Last edited by beamerguy; 12-09-2017 at 4:13 PM.
    RBS - MNBA - CAPITAL ONE - LLOYDS

    DISGUSTING BEHAVIOUR
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 12th Sep 17, 5:14 PM
    • 50,082 Posts
    • 63,470 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Fantastic! Can you give us the POPLA code to quote in future, and the Assessor's surname?

    Please also leave the photos you took at Brighton Marina Asda car park up, so others can use them!

    I've never seen POPLA say that about PE photos before but we must allege it in future, in any POPLA appeal, and put the operator to strict proof otherwise.

    I feel a template POPLA point coming on; we could use it in all cases, just saying something like:

    If the operator provides to POPLA, supposed evidence of full terms on signage in evidence photos, it is contended that these signs were not in place at all, or if they were, the terms were not close or adjacent to the vehicle at the material time and could not have been read. Moreover, it is reasonable to expect the operator to provide evidence that demonstrates that the signage was legible, prominent in real-time and in place before/on the day of the alleged contravention, not after.

    And any stock photographs ''here's what we say the sign would have said'' and/or aerial picture 'diagrams' with unproven flags or dots added electronically at the whim of an unnamed person on a PC on a random date and with no evidential signature/proof that the person is even familiar with the location, site or signs, will be worthless.

    I put the operator to strict proof of signage positions and true dates of photographs allegedly taken on site. Failing to show the photographs were taken where and when the operators tries to say they were (e.g. no landmarks or embedded dates or metadata that cannot be altered) will also mean that POPLA will not be able to conclude that the PCN was issued correctly.

    Operators often provide a series of photographs from the site but date and time stamps do in some cases, appear to have been added after the photographs have been taken. Clearly I am disadvantaged by having to write this appeal before such evidence has been put forward, but I suggest such photographs should be scrutinised and (if not shown to have been in place and prominently proclaiming the 'parking charge' sum in large letters on the day) rejected accordingly. If the Assessor is at all uncertain that the full terms on signage were clear and in place near the car, and at the entrance, on the day of the event, POPLA will not be able to conclude that the PCN was issued correctly.
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 12-09-2017 at 5:28 PM.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 12th Sep 17, 6:18 PM
    • 14,567 Posts
    • 22,913 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    I've commented on your post in the POPLA Decisions sticky about the doctoring of photos suspected by the POPLA Assessor. Must raise some questions especially when it is viewed against what District Judge Rogers said in a recent court case.
    DJ "No it isn't, you see the witness goes on to state that the signs as indicated on the plan were present on the day of the parking event. That is tantamount to perjury, she has ample access to all of ParkingEye's records and in the course of her employment she has tendered a document to the court which contains evidence that cannot be true. I therefore cannot rely on her evidence and I am dismissing her statement and therefore every document that she produces in that statement. That leaves you with the outline of facts on your court claim which is so brief and without supporting evidence that you cannot sustain a case, so it is dismissed."
    http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
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