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  • FIRST POST
    • sidvinnon
    • By sidvinnon 6th Apr 17, 2:10 PM
    • 24Posts
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    sidvinnon
    ParkingEye @ ASDA, Brighton Marina - POPLA help please!
    • #1
    • 6th Apr 17, 2:10 PM
    ParkingEye @ ASDA, Brighton Marina - POPLA help please! 6th Apr 17 at 2:10 PM
    Hi,

    I got a PCN recently after the driver of the car overstayed a 3 hour max stay by 45 minutes at ASDA car park in Brighton Marina, a 24-hour store. It does mention POFA and 29 days etc. The visit was on a Friday evening in the dark.

    The driver had absolutely no idea there were restrictions in place in the car park! The driver has been using it for years, primarily in the dark when also visiting a restaurant and/or going to the cinema and not once has the driver noticed any signs, neither has the driver's girlfriend. On this particular evening the driver parked, walked through a tunnel away from the store and to a restaurant. From here they went back to the store - the route back to the store has zero signs on the way. Upon leaving the store after purchasing some snacks for the cinema amongst other things, the driver walked back to the car to drop off some of the shopping, this route goes past the one and only sign that mentions the parking charge and shows the terms, and it is not in a clear position and is not lit up at night.

    I appealed to PE which of course was rejected.

    I emailed the CEO of ASDA with no reply.

    I spoke to the store manager in ASDA who said they would not cancel and could not even if they wanted to, they said something about never being able to cancel a PCN unless it was for a blue badge holder...

    I have not named the driver of the vehicle at any point.

    The below images show how bad/non-existent the warnings are (sorry, as I'm new I can't post the image links directly, you'll need to copy and paste):

    This is the sign at the entrance to the car park. I took this on foot, visibility would be even worse inside the car in the dark as it is not lit up.
    i.imgur.com/cb1XSvM.jpg

    This is taken from the same parking space the driver used. They walked from here directly through the tunnel to the restaurant and later on the cinema.
    i.imgur. com/CETAWcK.jpg

    This is the first sign seen walking from the store to the car, it is not a parking notice sign.
    i.imgur. com/S4YhipC.jpg

    This is the only sign with the terms on that was walked past, at a crossing where attention would be on crossing the road safely and not the sign. Even then, it is not at eye level and there is no illumination meaning it would be unreadable in the dark.
    i.imgur. com/A40dwQ2.jpg

    Lastly, here is the actual sign they use - This was on a wall about 20 metres from where the driver parked, again it isn't lit up and was not walked past.
    i.imgur.com/jdI0esV.jpg

    I could do with some help from the kind souls that frequent this forum in writing the POPLA appeal, primarily I would like some guidance on what I should and shouldn't include. I have read the NEWBIE thread and looked at some templates and successful appeals. I'm hesitant to copy the templates/successful appeals word for word but also don't want to amend them too much in fear of making them less effective.

    The obvious main point to me is signage, as it is legitimately the reason I have this PCN, it is clearly not adequate.

    Thanks
    Last edited by sidvinnon; 06-04-2017 at 3:16 PM.
Page 1
    • pappa golf
    • By pappa golf 6th Apr 17, 2:16 PM
    • 6,956 Posts
    • 6,969 Thanks
    pappa golf
    • #2
    • 6th Apr 17, 2:16 PM
    • #2
    • 6th Apr 17, 2:16 PM
    was this a 24 hr asda , was it open when the car was parked?
    Have YOU had to walk 500 miles?
    Were you advised to walk 500 more?
    You could be entitled to compensation.
    Call the Pro Claimers NOW.
    • sidvinnon
    • By sidvinnon 6th Apr 17, 2:17 PM
    • 24 Posts
    • 13 Thanks
    sidvinnon
    • #3
    • 6th Apr 17, 2:17 PM
    • #3
    • 6th Apr 17, 2:17 PM
    Yeah it's a 24 hour ASDA.
    • sidvinnon
    • By sidvinnon 6th Apr 17, 2:27 PM
    • 24 Posts
    • 13 Thanks
    sidvinnon
    • #4
    • 6th Apr 17, 2:27 PM
    • #4
    • 6th Apr 17, 2:27 PM
    [This was in response to pappa golf who has since deleted their reply]

    I wasn't intentionally abusing the system, and in any case I did spend money in the store and have a bank statement to prove it. As far as I knew it was free parking there, like I said, I've visited that store many, many times in my life and was not aware of any restrictions. Had I known, I would have parked in the multi-storey car park adjacent that allows 4 hours of free parking with no purchase necessary to boot. The only reason I parked in the ASDA car park is because it's the quickest and most convenient place to get to the supermarket, restaurants and the cinema.

    The point is the signage is inadequate - I genuinely did not know I could only park for 3 hours. I wouldn't knowingly overstay and get myself in this mess, that would just be stupid...
    Last edited by sidvinnon; 06-04-2017 at 2:32 PM.
    • pappa golf
    • By pappa golf 6th Apr 17, 2:38 PM
    • 6,956 Posts
    • 6,969 Thanks
    pappa golf
    • #5
    • 6th Apr 17, 2:38 PM
    • #5
    • 6th Apr 17, 2:38 PM
    yes I think the CEO of asda will assist you , show him your bank statement for "snacks" (to be consumed at the cinema?) and tell him you were looking around the store for the remainder of the 3 hrs and 45 mins spent on/off site ,

    the car park belongs to asda , for use by shoppers who are in site , the chances are that PE were brought in because people (like you) were abusing it and catching a bus/train etc whilst parked up
    Have YOU had to walk 500 miles?
    Were you advised to walk 500 more?
    You could be entitled to compensation.
    Call the Pro Claimers NOW.
    • sidvinnon
    • By sidvinnon 6th Apr 17, 2:43 PM
    • 24 Posts
    • 13 Thanks
    sidvinnon
    • #6
    • 6th Apr 17, 2:43 PM
    • #6
    • 6th Apr 17, 2:43 PM
    yes I think the CEO of asda will assist you , show him your bank statement for "snacks" (to be consumed at the cinema?) and tell him you were looking around the store for the remainder of the 3 hrs and 45 mins spent on/off site ,

    the car park belongs to asda , for use by shoppers who are in site , the chances are that PE were brought in because people (like you) were abusing it and catching a bus/train etc whilst parked up
    Originally posted by pappa golf
    Are you having a bad day or just a really bad troll?
    • pappa golf
    • By pappa golf 6th Apr 17, 2:57 PM
    • 6,956 Posts
    • 6,969 Thanks
    pappa golf
    • #7
    • 6th Apr 17, 2:57 PM
    • #7
    • 6th Apr 17, 2:57 PM
    NO , just a person that does not abuse other companies ,

    best of luck , show the judge your timed bank statement and explain why you were on asda land for 3 hrs 45 min to buy "snacks"
    Have YOU had to walk 500 miles?
    Were you advised to walk 500 more?
    You could be entitled to compensation.
    Call the Pro Claimers NOW.
    • sidvinnon
    • By sidvinnon 6th Apr 17, 3:04 PM
    • 24 Posts
    • 13 Thanks
    sidvinnon
    • #8
    • 6th Apr 17, 3:04 PM
    • #8
    • 6th Apr 17, 3:04 PM
    NO , just a person that does not abuse other companies ,

    best of luck , show the judge your timed bank statement and explain why you were on asda land for 3 hrs 45 min to buy "snacks"
    Originally posted by pappa golf
    Why does it matter what I bought and what I bought it for? Even if I'd have bought a chocolate bar for 20p I would still be a legitimate customer. The terms mention nothing of a minimum spend.

    I'm assuming ASDA - in allowing a 3 hour stay in their car park - don't expect everyone who shops there to only use the supermarket and nothing else on site, if they did then surely the time limit would be much less.

    Please go and spout your speculative nonsense elsewhere unless you have something constructive to say.
    • sidvinnon
    • By sidvinnon 6th Apr 17, 4:35 PM
    • 24 Posts
    • 13 Thanks
    sidvinnon
    • #9
    • 6th Apr 17, 4:35 PM
    • #9
    • 6th Apr 17, 4:35 PM
    From reading over the signage template, it goes into detail about the charge amount font not being big or prominent enough on the sign. In my case, the amount seems like it is the second largest font used after the duration warning, and is also on a contrast-coloured background. I don't think it would be wise therefore to include this in my appeal - Should I remove this section completely or reword it somehow?

    The terms and conditions are tiny and the only sign I went past is up on a pole, so even if I had noticed it I would not have been able to read the terms. The signage template backs this up, so I will leave that in. I guess I need to amend it so it concentrates on the terms being inaccessible and not about the charge amount?

    Regardless of all the font size/clarity issues, the fact is that I genuinely did not see any of the signs, so I would like to contest more about their location and illumination.

    Can anyone offer any pointers please?
    Last edited by sidvinnon; 06-04-2017 at 4:39 PM.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 7th Apr 17, 12:44 AM
    • 46,926 Posts
    • 60,258 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Do (definitely) complain to Asda Head Office about this rip off in their car park and tell them that whoever agreed to this new contract has made a huge mistake by changing from Smart to Parking Eye, who will sue their customers and staff.

    Re POPLA appeals, certainly write your own relevant parts.

    You can reword the signage template to suit, and embed your own images into the body of your word document - make the appeal illustrated like a story and easy for the POPLA assessor to follow why the driver could not learn about the terms in the dark. Don't upload photos separately (you could, but in my view it makes it harder for the bored Assessor to have to switch between PDFs and photos and follow a long appeal without photos to break it up).

    You should have parked in the multi storey that smells of errrm...''p'' because that is free.

    The Asda car park is a cash cow and used to have Smart Parking there. It is not a car park for the cinema, nor the restaurants, ONLY Asda. The multi storey is the general free car park.
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 10-04-2017 at 8:51 PM.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • sidvinnon
    • By sidvinnon 10th Apr 17, 10:33 AM
    • 24 Posts
    • 13 Thanks
    sidvinnon
    Thanks a lot for your reply. I am going to go back to the car park when it's dark later in the week and take some more photos to show exactly how poor the signage is - I'll arrange them to show my journey. Part of me wants ASDA to know how unclear it is so they can do something about it, either by changing the company they use or increasing the visibility of the signs so people don't get penalised without having any idea they have broken the rules.

    I certainly will park in the multi-storey next time, don't worry about that!

    Thanks again
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 10th Apr 17, 11:09 AM
    • 6,578 Posts
    • 5,521 Thanks
    The Deep
    As far as I knew it was free parking there,


    Free parking, in Brighton, in Rip Off Britain? What on earth made you think that?
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 10th Apr 17, 11:15 AM
    • 13,142 Posts
    • 20,525 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    I am going to go back to the car park when it's dark later in the week and take some more photos to show exactly how poor the signage is
    Sorry if this is obvious, but some people do mess this up - make sure the flash on your camera is switched to 'off' and you take your shots at approximately the same time as the parking event.

    You will need to factor in that clocks have gone forward and the fact that after 21 December there is a daily gain in available light (15 mins a week I think).
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • sidvinnon
    • By sidvinnon 10th Apr 17, 11:24 AM
    • 24 Posts
    • 13 Thanks
    sidvinnon
    As far as I knew it was free parking there,
    Free parking, in Brighton, in Rip Off Britain? What on earth made you think that?
    Originally posted by The Deep
    Believe it or not there are still some places that you can park for free, even on the street. ASDA car park used to be one of those.
    • sidvinnon
    • By sidvinnon 10th Apr 17, 11:31 AM
    • 24 Posts
    • 13 Thanks
    sidvinnon
    Sorry if this is obvious, but some people do mess this up - make sure the flash on your camera is switched to 'off' and you take your shots at approximately the same time as the parking event.

    You will need to factor in that clocks have gone forward and the fact that after 21 December there is a daily gain in available light (15 mins a week I think).
    Originally posted by Umkomaas
    Yeah I won't be using the flash, I had already thought of that but thanks for the tip. It will be about 2 hours later, which should be very similar lighting conditions.
    • sidvinnon
    • By sidvinnon 10th Apr 17, 11:37 AM
    • 24 Posts
    • 13 Thanks
    sidvinnon
    One thing i am a bit unsure about is whether I can legally take a photo from my car.

    The government website states:

    'When you can use a hand-held phone
    You can use a hand-held phone if either of these apply:

    you’re safely parked...'

    So it looks like I'll have to stop and turn my engine off at the entrance to the car park before I can take a picture of the sign there, don't know if that counts as safely parked though!
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 10th Apr 17, 11:50 AM
    • 13,142 Posts
    • 20,525 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    Can you get someone to travel with you to do the camera work?
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • sidvinnon
    • By sidvinnon 18th Apr 17, 12:31 PM
    • 24 Posts
    • 13 Thanks
    sidvinnon
    I've written my appeal, would anyone mind having a quick look over it before I send it please?

    I've uploaded it as a PDF here:

    https://ufile.io/qp4xl

    Thanks
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 19th Apr 17, 7:47 PM
    • 46,926 Posts
    • 60,258 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    You don't need a covering letter and won't be posting it to London. Not even sure the address is right but anyway we always say people must upload their POPLA appeals under 'other' on the POPLA appeals site as a PDF. Never by post.

    I would remove your second picture of the signs because you can read clearly '2 hours max stay' and your first pic is far better.

    I didn't see anything added about the fact this is a new site for PE, because Smart were kicked out only a while ago and so PE have failed to add extra signs to tell locals that the regime and rules and parking firm, the entire 'contract' is not as it was a few months ago.

    I didn't see this (sorry if it was buried there!):

    'The driver had absolutely no idea there were restrictions in place in the car park! The driver has been using it for years, primarily in the dark when also visiting a restaurant and/or going to the cinema and not once has the driver noticed any signs, neither has the driver's girlfriend.'

    Here are 2 points I used in a POPLA appeal about this car park, that I submitted for a fellow Albion fan last year and PE threw in the towel. So read, edit if necessary and add these:

    4) This is a very new car park for ParkingEye. No extra signs warning of new restrictions (BPA breach) and no advertising consent for these new signs.

    Until a few months ago, I find from researching this site, that Asda used Smart Parking then cancelled that contract. There were no extra signs warning locals that the previous rules and restrictions had changed. This is a requirement of the BPA CoP and this operator ignored it.

    Further, as this was such a new site I contend that ParkingEye were ticketing without Local Authority Advertising Consent. I can find no Planning Application for their signs on the Brighton & Hove Planning Register and this suggests they are operating contrary to the law:

    http://ww3.brighton-hove.gov.uk/index.cfm?request=c1199915&action=SearchByFilter


    5) Breach of the BPA Code of Practice on ANPR – DPA and CPUTRs breach.

    It is submitted that this charge was not properly given because it breaches the BPA Code of Practice regarding ANPR. The signs fail to inform a driver what the ANPR data will be used for, which is a ‘misleading omission’ in consumer law and a Data Protection breach.

    The driver had no idea that secret camera data would later be used against him to bind him to a charge he knew nothing about and did not agree to. The driver believed any cameras were there for security at the Marina, due to the lack of any other information (a black icon showing a camera communicates nothing and there was no such information anywhere in sight in the dark, in any case).

    Failure to tell a driver how the data will be used is a ‘misleading omission’ of a material fact – prohibited by The Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008:

    http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukdsi/2008/9780110811574/regulation/3
    ’’Prohibition of unfair commercial practices’’: 3.—
    (1) Unfair commercial practices are prohibited.
    (2) Paragraphs (3) and (4) set out the circumstances when a commercial practice is unfair.
    (4) A commercial practice is unfair if—
    (a) it is a misleading action under the provisions of regulation 5;
    (b) it is a misleading omission under the provisions of regulation 6; ‘’

    I have shown that ParkingEye have failed the above tests by:

    - installing cameras without information and warnings about the commercial purpose of the data collection;
    - beginning a new enforcement/ticketing regime without extra signs to tell local drivers who may reasonably expect the old regime to be continuing;
    - beginning a new enforcement/ticketing regime without Advertising/Planning Consent;

    All of the above are ‘misleading actions’ and ‘misleading omissions’ of material facts, a series of commercial practices which are unconscionable and unfair. Even a BPA breach (and certainly DPA and Planning Consent breaches) render a charge under these circumstances ‘prohibited’, unrecoverable and therefore, not properly given:

    http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukdsi/2008/9780110811574/regulation/5

    (3) A commercial practice satisfies the conditions of this paragraph if— (b) it concerns any failure by a trader to comply with a commitment contained in a code of conduct which the trader has undertaken to comply with, if
    (i) the trader indicates in a commercial practice that he is bound by that code of conduct, and
    (ii) the commitment is firm and capable of being verified and is not aspirational, and it causes or is likely to cause the average consumer to take a transactional decision he would not have taken otherwise, taking account of its factual context and of all its features and circumstances.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • sidvinnon
    • By sidvinnon 20th Apr 17, 10:16 AM
    • 24 Posts
    • 13 Thanks
    sidvinnon
    Thanks very much for the reply, I'll go back and edit it based on your recommendations.

    Did you go to the game? What a day! Here's a nice video montage of the days events if you haven't seen it already - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lA672U-87gk&app=desktop - goosebumps!
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