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    • tranmereforever
    • By tranmereforever 4th Apr 17, 8:07 AM
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    tranmereforever
    Questions over rental
    • #1
    • 4th Apr 17, 8:07 AM
    Questions over rental 4th Apr 17 at 8:07 AM
    Hi,

    Was up at my brothers last night and he is having an issue with his rental property

    He has been served a section 8 with the view of leaving on July 2nd when his contract expired. However on it it states that he has outstanding rent of £1658! He has shown me his bank statements and he is one month behind ( but can pay this week ) it seems last year he was 2 months behind at one point but has now been paid but the Landlord seems to have put the rest in as charges, are charges of £1008 justifiable! Seems massively high to me

    He has a new property lined up for August 7th ( its his previous place ) when it is free and initially LL had said he could stay until then

    In the notice it also says he will be subject to deposit deductions but he never had a inspection and his deposit was not protected until 8 months into the tenancy - he received written confirmation 4 months into it from the LL saying he was not protecting it until later in the tenancy

    I am going over tonight to help him put a letter together, I will ask for a breakdown in fees and am I right in saying no deductions can be made with regards to the deposit as no inspection was done on moving in, is he eligible for taking the LL to court over the lack of protecting his deposit?

    He was suffering from severe depression last year so want to help him as dont want the stress to effect him again

    Thanks in advance for any advice
    July 2015 Wins- Shaun The Sheep Goody Bag, 4x Books

    Year to date: £786

    Total to date ( Since 2008 ) = £37,345
Page 1
    • Pixie5740
    • By Pixie5740 4th Apr 17, 8:20 AM
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    Pixie5740
    • #2
    • 4th Apr 17, 8:20 AM
    • #2
    • 4th Apr 17, 8:20 AM
    Ask the landlord for a rent statement. Depending on what ground the Section 8 was issued on your brother might be able to avoid being evicted through this route by getting his rent up to date.

    No check-in inventory does not mean deductions cannot be made from the deposit. However, a lack of check-in inventory could make it more difficult for the landlord to justify deductions from the deposit.

    If the deposit was indeed protected late then your brother does have the option of suing the landlord for 1-3 times the value of the deposit. Even if he doesn't want to take things that far it could be a useful ace up his sleeve should he need it.

    See G_M's guides to Deposits and Ending/renewing an AST for more information.
    Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen pounds nineteen and six, result happiness. Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds nought and six, result misery.
    • saajan_12
    • By saajan_12 4th Apr 17, 8:51 AM
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    saajan_12
    • #3
    • 4th Apr 17, 8:51 AM
    • #3
    • 4th Apr 17, 8:51 AM
    Hi,

    Was up at my brothers last night and he is having an issue with his rental property

    He has been served a section 8 with the view of leaving on July 2nd when his contract expired. However on it it states that he has outstanding rent of £1658! He has shown me his bank statements and he is one month behind ( but can pay this week ) it seems last year he was 2 months behind at one point but has now been paid but the Landlord seems to have put the rest in as charges, are charges of £1008 justifiable! Seems massively high to me - Check the tenancy agreement and post the exact wording of any clauses about late fees/penalties. It is fair if your brother agreed to the fees in the tenancy contract. However it matters how / when any fees are payable and regarding which Section 8 clause can refer to them.

    He has a new property lined up for August 7th ( its his previous place ) when it is free and initially LL had said he could stay until then - has he signed another agreement? Having two rents would only make matters worse. I don't know the situation unless he can stay with you / family until August, I wouldn't rely on the old place. Start looking now and once you find a place, before signing, agree an early surrender wtih the current landlord so brother can move on his timescales with easy overlaps so he's not homeless nor paying double rent for long.

    In the notice it also says he will be subject to deposit deductions but he never had a inspection - An inventory signed by the tenant is helpful for a LL in establishing damages, but it isn't strictly necessary. The LL just needs to prove the condition at the start of the tenancy (e.g. through dated pictures taken without the tenant, an inventory performed by a professional clerk, receipts to show furniture etc was new..)

    and his deposit was not protected until 8 months into the tenancy - he received written confirmation 4 months into it from the LL saying he was not protecting it until later in the tenancy- when did the tenancy start? If it was early enough, it may not have been a requirement. If not, brother could be due an extra 1-3x the deposit (likely to be the lower end as the deposit was eventually protected) but this could provide leverage to encourage the LL to agree a surrender or reduce deductions.

    I am going over tonight to help him put a letter together, I will ask for a breakdown in fees Good, and ask for an account of rent payments,or make one yourself and am I right in saying no deductions can be made with regards to the deposit as no inspection was done on moving in- No, it'll be harder for LL to prove but it is doable , is he eligible for taking the LL to court over the lack of protecting his deposit- probably, depends on when the tenancy started.?

    He was suffering from severe depression last year so want to help him as dont want the stress to effect him again

    Thanks in advance for any advice
    Originally posted by tranmereforever
    Focus on getting a a mutual surrender for the current place for when you can get a new place lined up, ideally slightly more affordable to avoid such issues again). This will minimise court fees and the uncertainty of eviction. Then look at rent statements/fees breakdown/contract and deposit deductions point by point to determine liability for fees / damages and post things here - this is where we can help!
    • Guest101
    • By Guest101 4th Apr 17, 12:24 PM
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    Guest101
    • #4
    • 4th Apr 17, 12:24 PM
    • #4
    • 4th Apr 17, 12:24 PM
    Penalties are not enforceable


    But costs are


    Typically £1008 in charges would be substantially higher than expected for 1 months missed payments.
    • G_M
    • By G_M 4th Apr 17, 12:26 PM
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    G_M
    • #5
    • 4th Apr 17, 12:26 PM
    • #5
    • 4th Apr 17, 12:26 PM
    * As above, ask for a full rent statement. And draw up your own (showing each date rent was due, how much was paid on each date, and how much arrears there were on each date).

    Compare the two.

    * which 'ground' was the S8 Notice? I suspect it was S8 ground 8 (rent arrears)? See here. If so, then so long as the arrears are less than 2 months rent at the time it goes to court, it will fail.

    Pay the arrears!

    * Deductions from deposit can be for rent or other costs, not just for things on the inventory or damage.

    * Charges can be added provided the tenancy agreement says so, and provided they are reasonable'.

    * If the deposit was registered lat, the tenant can claim a penalty. See here.

    * Negotiation is the key. Talk to the LL. It seems
    a) the LL wants the tenant to leave
    b) the tenant wants to leave
    c) the tenant has the option of claiming the deposit penalty
    d) the landlord wants the rent paid

    Surely a compromise can be reached whereby
    e) the tenant pays the rent that's owed and
    f) a 'Mutual Surrender' is agreed on the date required by the tenant, and
    g) the deposit is returned at that point and no action taken on the late registration.

    Win/win all round.
    • Cakeguts
    • By Cakeguts 4th Apr 17, 1:23 PM
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    Cakeguts
    • #6
    • 4th Apr 17, 1:23 PM
    • #6
    • 4th Apr 17, 1:23 PM
    What kind of landlord does he have? Is it a social landlord? Was the tenancy a trial tenancy? Is he going to be moving back into some kind of shelter/ supported housing?

    It makes a difference if this is not a private landlord. You need to find out what sort of tenancy it was.
    • tranmereforever
    • By tranmereforever 4th Apr 17, 3:36 PM
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    tranmereforever
    • #7
    • 4th Apr 17, 3:36 PM
    • #7
    • 4th Apr 17, 3:36 PM
    Hiya,

    Just been to see him,

    So some of the answers above

    It is a private landlord, the property he is moving back to is our aunts and is cheaper, he is in a better place now so on his feet

    In the contract for charges it states:

    To pay interest upon any late payments at 2% above Bank Of England Base rate per day for any amounts that are more than 7 days late whether requested or not

    I am not sure if it makes a difference but the contract also states in the LL obligations that the deposit will be protected within 30 days.

    As an update today he has received two Moneyclaim forms from LL but they do not match in any way the rent arrears stated in the section 8 ( not sure if that is relevant )

    One is for £440.80 ( period Jan 2016 to June 2016 ) and the other is for £181.26 ( Dec 2016 )

    Obviously he has 14 days to respond to them which I will make sure he does.

    In terms of the deposit scheme he started the tenancy is June 2015 and it was protected in Feb 2016, he has a letter from the LL in July 2015 stating it was protected and another ( after brother had chased for confirmation ) in Jan 2017 saying " I did not protect the deposit as I felt it was unnecessary at the time" it was only after one more time of writing to him it was protected

    I think if a compromise can be met it would suit all parties I am just not entirely sure how the letter should be written. If he puts forward a mutual agreement saying he will not pursue the LL for the protection if an agreement can be found on date/ arrears paid would that work against him if its rejected and he takes the LL to court for the protection

    Really appreciating the help
    July 2015 Wins- Shaun The Sheep Goody Bag, 4x Books

    Year to date: £786

    Total to date ( Since 2008 ) = £37,345
    • Cakeguts
    • By Cakeguts 4th Apr 17, 4:17 PM
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    Cakeguts
    • #8
    • 4th Apr 17, 4:17 PM
    • #8
    • 4th Apr 17, 4:17 PM
    Can I suggest that he gets a standing order for the rent. It would be a shame to fall out with the aunt because of non payment of rent.
    • G_M
    • By G_M 4th Apr 17, 4:32 PM
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    G_M
    • #9
    • 4th Apr 17, 4:32 PM
    • #9
    • 4th Apr 17, 4:32 PM

    It is a private landlord, OK

    In the contract for charges it states:

    To pay interest upon any late payments at 2% above Bank Of England Base rate per day for any amounts that are more than 7 days late whether requested or not
    Base Rate is 0.5%, so the rate is 2.05%.

    From the amount charged, I'm guessing the LL is charging 2.05% of the arrears each day (eg £1000 arrears = £20.50 per day).

    I am not sure if it makes a difference but the contract also states in the LL obligations that the deposit will be protected within 30 days.
    No. See the link previously provided above

    As an update today he has received two Moneyclaim forms from LL but they do not match in any way the rent arrears stated in the section 8 ( not sure if that is relevant )
    No. Doubtless the arrears have changed since the S8 Notice was served.

    One is for £440.80 ( period Jan 2016 to June 2016 ) and the other is for £181.26 ( Dec 2016 )

    So he is just claiming the money owed? He is not following up the S8 Notice and seeking eviction?

    Obviously he has 14 days to respond to them which I will make sure he does.

    Pay the arrears he owes. Sorted.

    In terms of the deposit scheme he started the tenancy is June 2015 and it was protected in Feb 2016, he has a letter from the LL in July 2015 stating it was protected and another ( after brother had chased for confirmation ) in Jan 2017 saying " I did not protect the deposit as I felt it was unnecessary at the time" it was only after one more time of writing to him it was protected
    See the link previously provided above

    I think if a compromise can be met it would suit all parties I am just not entirely sure how the letter should be written. If he puts forward a mutual agreement saying he will not pursue the LL for the protection if an agreement can be found on date/ arrears paid would that work against him if its rejected and he takes the LL to court for the protection

    Really appreciating the help
    Originally posted by tranmereforever
    Negotiation is always done better face to face.
    • tranmereforever
    • By tranmereforever 4th Apr 17, 4:53 PM
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    tranmereforever
    Thanks for the reply,

    On this one I can answer

    The Section 8 and the money claim were both issued the same day ( well both dated the same day ) so not sure how they can have a difference in amounts owed - unless I am missing something obvious

    The section 8 states that they want him to move on July 2nd
    July 2015 Wins- Shaun The Sheep Goody Bag, 4x Books

    Year to date: £786

    Total to date ( Since 2008 ) = £37,345
    • G_M
    • By G_M 4th Apr 17, 4:58 PM
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    G_M

    The section 8 states that they want him to move on July 2nd
    Originally posted by tranmereforever
    very strange.

    I wonder if the LL has confused a S8 Notice (speedy eviction due to arrears) with a S21 Notice (2 months notice required but no reason needed)?

    Using a S8 with a 3 month period is hardly usual!

    As previously asked, which S8 ground is being used? (see link above)
    • tranmereforever
    • By tranmereforever 4th Apr 17, 5:14 PM
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    tranmereforever
    Right just got his forms out

    The letter from the LL clearly says July 2nd on numerous occasions including the end line of "You will leave the property in first class condition on/before 2nd July failure of which will see further action taken"

    The section 8 says grounds 8,10 and 12

    And says my brother is in arrears of £1658 under section 8 reasoning- which is different than the Money Claim issued same day

    And then further down says Court proceedings will not begin until after April 30th

    So really confused now
    July 2015 Wins- Shaun The Sheep Goody Bag, 4x Books

    Year to date: £786

    Total to date ( Since 2008 ) = £37,345
    • tranmereforever
    • By tranmereforever 5th Apr 17, 9:03 AM
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    tranmereforever
    Just a quick bump as going over this afternoon to sort the letter out

    For now should I just focus on getting a breakdown, should he mention the section 8 and Money Claim do not match?
    July 2015 Wins- Shaun The Sheep Goody Bag, 4x Books

    Year to date: £786

    Total to date ( Since 2008 ) = £37,345
    • Pixie5740
    • By Pixie5740 5th Apr 17, 9:23 AM
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    Pixie5740
    Yes, focus on getting the rent statement from the landlord and worry about the amounts on the Section 8 and MCOL later once you've worked out exactly how much it is your brother owes.
    Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen pounds nineteen and six, result happiness. Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds nought and six, result misery.
    • Guest101
    • By Guest101 5th Apr 17, 9:59 AM
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    Guest101
    Hiya,

    Just been to see him,

    So some of the answers above

    It is a private landlord, the property he is moving back to is our aunts and is cheaper, he is in a better place now so on his feet

    In the contract for charges it states:

    To pay interest upon any late payments at 2% above Bank Of England Base rate per day for any amounts that are more than 7 days late whether requested or not - Yes but that's per year, not per day. So it's a yearly interest rate, calculated on a per day basis. Which is Outstanding amount *102.5 /365 * number of days late

    I am not sure if it makes a difference but the contract also states in the LL obligations that the deposit will be protected within 30 days. - is it not?

    As an update today he has received two Moneyclaim forms from LL but they do not match in any way the rent arrears stated in the section 8 ( not sure if that is relevant ) - Not really, he could claim a million if he wants, doesn't mean hed win

    One is for £440.80 ( period Jan 2016 to June 2016 ) and the other is for £181.26 ( Dec 2016 ) - strange he filed it as two claims...

    Obviously he has 14 days to respond to them which I will make sure he does. - good, otherwise he gets a default judgment

    In terms of the deposit scheme he started the tenancy is June 2015 and it was protected in Feb 2016, he has a letter from the LL in July 2015 stating it was protected and another ( after brother had chased for confirmation ) in Jan 2017 saying " I did not protect the deposit as I felt it was unnecessary at the time" it was only after one more time of writing to him it was protected - in which case he can sue the LL for 1-3x the value of the deposit

    I think if a compromise can be met it would suit all parties I am just not entirely sure how the letter should be written. If he puts forward a mutual agreement saying he will not pursue the LL for the protection if an agreement can be found on date/ arrears paid would that work against him if its rejected and he takes the LL to court for the protection

    Really appreciating the help
    Originally posted by tranmereforever





    That would be short sighted. The LL's claimed charges are likely to be thrown out and he receive the correct amount as calculated above.
    • tranmereforever
    • By tranmereforever 5th Apr 17, 2:54 PM
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    tranmereforever
    Just wanted to say thanks for the replies,

    Have done a letter with my brother today and sent it recorded,

    Will let you know once we have a response
    July 2015 Wins- Shaun The Sheep Goody Bag, 4x Books

    Year to date: £786

    Total to date ( Since 2008 ) = £37,345
    • tranmereforever
    • By tranmereforever 17th Apr 17, 8:15 AM
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    tranmereforever
    Hiya all,

    Just to give a bit of an update,

    Spoke to my brother and going over tomorrow to do the claim forms for him

    The LL received the letter on the 6th April ( recorded ) but we have had nothing back, assuming he does not tomorrow do we pay the claim amounts or defend on the basis he has had no response from the landlord, my brother cannot understand the amounts saying are outstanding so thinks they are charges but are unsure
    July 2015 Wins- Shaun The Sheep Goody Bag, 4x Books

    Year to date: £786

    Total to date ( Since 2008 ) = £37,345
    • tranmereforever
    • By tranmereforever 18th Apr 17, 4:19 PM
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    • 2,063 Thanks
    tranmereforever
    Just a quick bump to say nothing at all received from LL and he is not answering phone so a bit stumped on what to do now
    July 2015 Wins- Shaun The Sheep Goody Bag, 4x Books

    Year to date: £786

    Total to date ( Since 2008 ) = £37,345
    • tranmereforever
    • By tranmereforever 19th Apr 17, 12:39 PM
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    tranmereforever
    Out of interest should a Letter before action had been sent from the LL before Moneyclaim as he has not had anything prior to the claim
    July 2015 Wins- Shaun The Sheep Goody Bag, 4x Books

    Year to date: £786

    Total to date ( Since 2008 ) = £37,345
    • G_M
    • By G_M 19th Apr 17, 1:05 PM
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    G_M
    Is the rent now up to date? That is the first thing to do.

    If you have not had a rent statement from the LL, then work out your own with your brother. Create a simple spreadsheet on paper or computer with 5 columns:

    * Amount of rent (ie the monthly/weekly rent. Should be the same each time)
    * Date rent due (ie 1.1.17; 1/2/17; 1/3/17 etc., starting from the date the tenancy started
    * Amount actually paid
    * date actually paid
    * balance (ie £0 if paid up to date, or -£500 if a payment was missed and there are arrears)

    The final column may vary as the arrears increase (or decrease if all/part of the arrears are paid off).

    Once you've worked out what the arrears are

    a) pay them, and
    b) pay the late payment fee as calculated by guest above
    c) write informing the LL of this, enclosing the rent statement, and late payment fee calculation.

    The S8 Grounds 8 & 10 both relate to arrears, so will then be invalid if the arrears are paid off.

    S8 ground 12 is "Any obligation of the tenancy (other than one related to the payment of rent) has been broken or not performed."

    So other than rent, what else has your brother done wrong?
    Last edited by G_M; 19-04-2017 at 1:10 PM.
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