Your browser isn't supported
It looks like you're using an old web browser. To get the most out of the site and to ensure guides display correctly, we suggest upgrading your browser now. Download the latest:

Welcome to the MSE Forums

We're home to a fantastic community of MoneySavers but anyone can post. Please exercise caution & report spam, illegal, offensive or libellous posts/messages: click "report" or email forumteam@.

Search
  • FIRST POST
    • Craig Maddocks
    • By Craig Maddocks 27th Mar 17, 7:58 PM
    • 23Posts
    • 12Thanks
    Craig Maddocks
    Complicated, advice please
    • #1
    • 27th Mar 17, 7:58 PM
    Complicated, advice please 27th Mar 17 at 7:58 PM
    Hi,
    I will try and be detailed.

    My partner recieved a £120 PCN becuase the permit wasnt on display.
    She emailed them right away ( which I wasnt happy about becuase I like to reseach before we go jumping in)
    And explained that she has a permit it just had fallen off the window and she is allowed to park there because she works there.

    Somone who worked at the School phoned Spring Parking Ltd and on the phone the PCN was cancelled.
    We have no proof of this. So it wasnt paid.

    146 days later we recieved a Notice to Keeper from PCS
    When she phoned up it was a differnet conpany and they said "No the PCN wasnt cancelled and we have taken over the claim so you have to pay or evidence it was cancelled.

    Long story short.
    We have evidence of us contacting them.
    We dont have evidence of it being cancelled or any evidence of them getting back to us at all.

    So she is allowed to park where she parked. So no loss to the company/landowner becuase they dont do pay and display. The Notice to Keeper was late by 90ish days.

    What is my next step?
Page 2
    • Craig Maddocks
    • By Craig Maddocks 20th Apr 17, 6:07 PM
    • 23 Posts
    • 12 Thanks
    Craig Maddocks
    Is this all correct.

    Dear Sir or Madam

    I would like to make a written complaint about the Parking Collection Services company who are a member of the BPA.

    My name is ****, I received a Notice to keeper 146 days after a the PCN was issued. I tried to appeal because of this reason. I did this via email but received an email in response to this threatening court action. I then phoned the company and they refused to give me a PoPLA code even though I had asked for one in the email. They said they don’t give out codes because they are a collection agency and the original company Spring Parking would need to provide that. However the Notice to Keeper was not issued by Spring Parking it was issued by Parking Collection Service and spring parking won’t deal with that matter. They stated that the notice to keeper can be issued at any time because it was a non POFA Parking charge.

    The email they sent also stated that they can presume I was the driver because I am the keeper which is incorrect. They also used the established case of Elliott v Loake [1982] as evidence of this. They did this probably knowing this doesn’t apply for a private parking case. I also believe this is a breach of the BPA code of practice.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 20th Apr 17, 8:23 PM
    • 48,068 Posts
    • 61,520 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    I would go with this and copy in David Dunford at the DVLA:

    david.dunford@dvla.gsi.gov.uk




    Dear Sir or Madam,

    Re - PCN xxxxxxxx Spring Parking - event date xx/xx/2016, NTK date xx/xx/2017


    I would like to make a written complaint about the Spring Parking Ltd and Parking Collection Services (PCS) company who are a both apparently AOS members of the BPA.

    My name is ****, I received a Notice to keeper from PCS which was sent 146 days after a the PCN was allegedly issued to a vehicle for which I am the registered keeper.

    I tried to appeal and since this was a Notice to Keeper (the first letter) not any later debt collection letter, I was aware that a rejection letter must include a POPLA Code. because of this reason. I did this via email but received an email in response to this threatening court action.

    I then phoned the company (PCS) and they refused to give me a PoPLA code even though I had asked for one in the email appeal to the Notice to Keeper they had sent. They said they don’t give out codes because they are a collection agency and the original company Spring Parking would need to provide that. However the Notice to Keeper was not issued by Spring Parking it was issued by Parking Collection Service and Spring Parking won’t deal with that matter. They stated that the notice to keeper can be issued at any time because it was a non POFA Parking charge.*

    The email they sent also stated that they can presume I was the driver because I am the keeper which is incorrect. The driver has not been identified and I have a right to appeal to POPLA as keeper, having responded immediately to the first letter sent to me. I also feel it is objectionable that the BPA allows debt collectors a far longer time to obtain DVLA data for NTK issue, astonishingly buying my DVLA data months later than a parking firm are reasonably expected to act.

    Have PCS pretended in the application that this one was for debt collection? If so, this was untrue.

    I remind you that my data was not obtained for 'debt collection stage' but for a NTK to be issued but this was some 5 months after the alleged parking event! It is utterly reprehensible that you and the DVLA let these very late requests slip through. Just because firms like Spring Parking use PCS for their back office functions and NTK issue should not mean that PCS can get data this late and even worse, tell a consumer that they don't/won't issue a POPLA code.


    I have copied in Mr Dunford of the DVLA as the above is a serious breach of the BPA CoP and the KADOE rules.

    yours faithfully,

    They also used the established case of Elliott v Loake [1982] as evidence of this. They did this probably knowing this doesn’t apply for a private parking case. I also believe this is a breach of the BPA code of practice. *



    * I deleted the above lines because neither add anything to your complaint.
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 20-04-2017 at 8:26 PM.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 20th Apr 17, 9:09 PM
    • 13,585 Posts
    • 21,297 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    David Dunford



    Does this look like a guy who is likely to do anything at all?

    https://uk.linkedin.com/in/david-dunford-172a8862
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 20th Apr 17, 9:41 PM
    • 48,068 Posts
    • 61,520 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Thing is, he does. I've emailed him before and he does rattle cages.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Craig Maddocks
    • By Craig Maddocks 21st Apr 17, 5:03 PM
    • 23 Posts
    • 12 Thanks
    Craig Maddocks
    OK I have sent all emails I need to now. Just have to sit and wait.
    • Craig Maddocks
    • By Craig Maddocks 24th Apr 17, 9:58 AM
    • 23 Posts
    • 12 Thanks
    Craig Maddocks
    From AOS
    Dear ***

    Thank you for your email.

    The BPA is not a regulatory body, but as a membership association, we can investigate possible breaches of our AOS Code of Practice.

    It is not mandatory that an operator uses POFA when issuing a parking charge notice. There is no legal requirement to do so. It is the decision of the individual parking company as to whether they choose to utilise POFA (2012).

    If no mention of POFA (2012) is made on the parking charge notice the strict timescales as advised in Schedule 4 are not therefore applicable. Please note that the parking operator can however still pursue the keeper for the unpaid ticket under the reasonable assumption that the keeper knows or was the driver at the time of the alleged contravention.

    The AOS Code does not specifically instruct what a parking operator should include in their correspondence to motorists, only that if a motorist is eligible a POPLA verification code should be included to enable the motorist to appeal further.

    If you are able to supply us with a copy of the notice to keeper, and a copy of the appeal you sent, including details of where it was sent to, we will ascertain if we can advise you further.


    Yours sincerely,
    • Craig Maddocks
    • By Craig Maddocks 24th Apr 17, 10:12 AM
    • 23 Posts
    • 12 Thanks
    Craig Maddocks
    however the it says on the notice to keeper, this parking charge has been lawfully issued under schedule 4 of the POFA 2012.
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 24th Apr 17, 10:19 AM
    • 13,585 Posts
    • 21,297 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    Bog standard BPA (non) response we've seen numerous times before.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • waamo
    • By waamo 24th Apr 17, 10:20 AM
    • 1,696 Posts
    • 2,006 Thanks
    waamo
    Send copies pointing out the "errors". Keep the pressure on them.
    This space for hire.
    • Craig Maddocks
    • By Craig Maddocks 24th Apr 17, 12:22 PM
    • 23 Posts
    • 12 Thanks
    Craig Maddocks
    I have done that, I have also phoned (i know you say don't but i am very carful about what I say)
    I pointed out the mistakes over the phone and they have agreed to send it to the appeals department again. Hopefully they will cancel or give me a code. Exciting times
    • Craig Maddocks
    • By Craig Maddocks 24th Apr 17, 2:31 PM
    • 23 Posts
    • 12 Thanks
    Craig Maddocks
    Also DVLA got back to me and explained I should take it up with BPA ... which I have. they have also said that no data protection was breached because they are allowed to give out details upto 6 months.
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 24th Apr 17, 2:41 PM
    • 13,585 Posts
    • 21,297 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    Also DVLA got back to me and explained I should take it up with BPA ... which I have. they have also said that no data protection was breached because they are allowed to give out details upto 6 months.
    Originally posted by Craig Maddocks
    As I intimated they might!

    they have also said that no data protection was breached
    They issue details to PPCs of ~5 million motorists every year, earning themselves around £12.5 million. Were you expecting them to say anything different?
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 24th Apr 17, 9:52 PM
    • 48,068 Posts
    • 61,520 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Also DVLA got back to me and explained I should take it up with BPA ... which I have. they have also said that no data protection was breached because they are allowed to give out details upto 6 months.
    Originally posted by Craig Maddocks
    But that's a vague deadline for getting data for collection purposes isn't it?

    Reply to the DVLA and point out again this data was not obtained for debt collection purposes. It was for a Notice to Keeper and it is ludicrous that the DVLA allow debt collectors to muddy the waters by harvesting data six months afterwards just because they are a debt collector, then compound that by refusing a POPLA code. This entire course of conduct is obviously a significant breach of the CoP and indeed the KADOE, for which full compliance with an ATA CoP is a pre-requisite and the DVLA should be ashamed to release data so loosely, then to defend the operator and their pet debt collector who between them - in apparently colluding to avoid POPLA - are both indisputably in serious breach.

    Reply to the DVLA fob off. They need to hear people's wrath, again and again.


    I have done that, I have also phoned (i know you say don't but i am very carful about what I say)
    I pointed out the mistakes over the phone and they have agreed to send it to the appeals department again. Hopefully they will cancel or give me a code. Exciting times
    Good! Of course you MUST have a POPLA code.
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 24-04-2017 at 9:54 PM.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Craig Maddocks
    • By Craig Maddocks 26th Apr 17, 2:02 PM
    • 23 Posts
    • 12 Thanks
    Craig Maddocks
    Thank you for your email.

    If the parking charge notice makes reference to the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 it will be utilising the legislation. The timeframe to issue the parking charge notice will be dependent on whether a notice to driver was issued first.

    A 10-digit POPLA (Parking on Private Land Appeals) code is only available if a motorist’s appeal was received within 28 days, of the date of the parking charge notice, and the operator rejected the appeal. If the contravention took place in Scotland or Northern Ireland POPLA will not be available to the motorist.

    Please provide a photograph (using a phone, camera, etc.) of the original parking charge notice as well as your appeal to Parking Collection Services. Once received we can advise you further.


    From AOS...
    • Craig Maddocks
    • By Craig Maddocks 26th Apr 17, 2:08 PM
    • 23 Posts
    • 12 Thanks
    Craig Maddocks
    I do not have the original PNC, it was binned when they told us on the phone it was cancelled.

    One issue we have, we have an email proving we appealed, but it is addmitting who the driver is. so I don't want to draw attention to that.
    • Loadsofchildren123
    • By Loadsofchildren123 26th Apr 17, 2:46 PM
    • 967 Posts
    • 1,671 Thanks
    Loadsofchildren123
    The BPA's CoP requires meticulous record keeping. So tell them to get the pcn from the PPC because according to the code they will have it.


    Also point out that the code states that compliance with it is mandatory for the PPC to be a member. It also clearly provides for breaches to be acted upon and so you want their categoric agreement that action will be taken.


    Keep going with this one. If nothing else it's fun for all of us to run in circles around the BPA.


    When they come back and tell you that it's just a code it's not compulsory, point them to the parts of the code that say compliance is mandatory.
    • Craig Maddocks
    • By Craig Maddocks 26th Apr 17, 4:06 PM
    • 23 Posts
    • 12 Thanks
    Craig Maddocks
    Ok so I was driving and thinking another way around this. I am getting nowhere with this NTK 146 days thing. They are not providing a code because they think they dont have too. My Partner will not under any circumstance go to court and she doesn't want any CCJs either. (I personally don't care I would be happy with both)

    So heres is my line of thinking:
    A colleague of my partner phoned up Spring Parking and had this charge cancelled originally, on the day it was issued. Another colleague emailed them with an appeal before that.

    The charge was cancelled but over the phone and not in writing, but they also did not send a rejection to the appeal email. Instead they went straight to giving it to PCS and they sent the NTK 146 days late.

    If I phone Spring Parking up them up and ask them to cancel the charge again and they say no. I can ask them why didn't they send a PoPLA code ?

    that way I surely I will get the PoPLA code (or cancelled) and then I can appeal with them about the 146 NTK and the fact the charge is $120 and that my partner has a Valid Permit to park there in the first place because she works there.

    I may be also able to complain to DVLA for giving out our information despite the fact we had appealed it and they didn't get back to us. I have evidence of the email, so they cant say we ignored the charge. So They may cancel it because they've messed up.
    • Craig Maddocks
    • By Craig Maddocks 26th Apr 17, 4:07 PM
    • 23 Posts
    • 12 Thanks
    Craig Maddocks
    Please bare in mind the Appeal does admit who the driver is. So far I have not drawn attention to it.
    • Redx
    • By Redx 26th Apr 17, 4:24 PM
    • 14,735 Posts
    • 18,514 Thanks
    Redx
    please note , you (or she) does not get a CCJ unless all of the following happens

    you go to court
    you lose
    you fail to pay the judgment within 28 days

    only then is it a CCJ

    so anyone who goes to court and loses (like BARRY BEAVIS did) , pays the judgment promptly

    there is no automatic CCJ, but failure to pay the judgment is effectively contempt of court and so a CCJ follows

    by all means ask for a copy of the NTK, suggest that the BPA and DVLA need a copy due to the ongoing complaint

    they could email it as an attachment, or send it in the post
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Loadsofchildren123
    • By Loadsofchildren123 27th Apr 17, 11:39 AM
    • 967 Posts
    • 1,671 Thanks
    Loadsofchildren123
    I have just re-read the thread. I think we are getting a bit lost along the way.


    I think the focus should be on the driver outing themselves, and saying that they were a permit holder and were entitled to park and that the parking co has no legal right to interfere with that pre-existing entitlement (did the parking co come in later or were they always there? how is the permit given out, by the school? what terms are agreed at the time the employee asks for and gets a permit from the school?)


    Driver should be going to the source of this - the school - and getting them to pressurise the PPC to cancel the charge.


    Also, why has there been no focus on the initial cancellation? Trouble is, to pursue that argument the driver has to be outed.


    Also, you DID appeal and are therefore entitled to a POPLA appeal - again, pursuing this argument means outing the driver.


    I always think that where the driver has a good defence then they should defend as driver rather than as RK.


    However, at POPLA stage it is better to appeal as RK so driver shouldn't out themselves until after that. But you are going round in circles in getting a POPLA number - to get it you have to show them you DID make that initial appeal, but you don't want to draw attention to that because it outs the driver.


    First things first, pressurise the school into getting this cancelled, and if they won't, then driver should write to Spring to say that the pcn was cancelled on the day it was given in a phone call. Say that this is an end to the matter and if any further communication is received it will be treated as harassment.


    Trouble is, you've spent so much time focussing on the BPA/POPLA issue now that it begs the question why you haven't been raising this point before and if the case ends up hinging on this then a judge may take this as indicating that, on the balance of probabilities, it isn't true. You'd have to have the colleague who made the call to make a statement.


    I think before this goes any further you have to sit back and think about all these issues.
    Dear Sirs,
Welcome to our new Forum!

Our aim is to save you money quickly and easily. We hope you like it!

Forum Team Contact us

Live Stats

403Posts Today

3,793Users online

Martin's Twitter
  • Byebye! I'm about to stop work & twitter, to instead spend glorious time with Mrs & mini MSE. Wishing u a lovely summer. See u in 10 days.

  • WARNING Did you start Uni in or after 2012? The interest's rising to 6.1%; yet it doesnt work like you think. See https://t.co/IQ8f0Vyetu RT

  • RT @JanaBeee: @MartinSLewis Boris is the anomaly (coffee), the others are versions of normal (beer). Lots of same candidates = vote share d?

  • Follow Martin