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  • FIRST POST
    • akkers
    • By akkers 20th Mar 17, 6:05 PM
    • 174Posts
    • 19Thanks
    akkers
    MID and Police
    • #1
    • 20th Mar 17, 6:05 PM
    MID and Police 20th Mar 17 at 6:05 PM
    When you pay for your car insurance and they tell you it is insured, they are supposed to put that on Motor Insurance Database (MID) and I suspect some form of that is uploaded on Police systems.

    What I am finding and hearing from various people is that they get stopped by the police as car is being shown uninsured on MID. The police have a zero-tolerance policy and will impound your car there and then. If you produce any form of insurance documentation they will dismiss it; they only take the database as the defacto record. My understanding is that if you show them proof of insurance then they have to contact the insurance company to clear the discrepency. However, most often than not they will not they do that and will take your vehivcle before you can say 'unfair'.

    Now, the problem is that the insurance companies are sometimes slow to update the database; they can take sevaral days sometimes. On other occassions they will cancel your insurance after a slight problem (eg: a missed direct debit) and will not tell you in time.

    Apart from hearing horror stories from various people, I myself came across this issue. Last week I renewed my long-standing insurance, on Friday morning; made the payment and got documents via email. I assumed I was all insured and good to go. Whilst out and about on sunday, I was waiting in the car for someone; being bored and out of curiousty I checked the MID using my mobile - and hey, my car was showing as uninsured. Damn, how do I get home, I thought. Anyway I took the risk and drove home and was lucky enough not to be picked up by police. I telephoned the insurance company. They said that I was formally and legally insured but they could not explain why MID had not been updated. It was eventually updated on Monday afternoon. Had I been seen by the police over the weekend I would definitely have lost my vehicle.

    What is going on here? Is this some kind of scam between insurance companies, police, recovery and compound companies?
Page 1
    • BeenThroughItAll
    • By BeenThroughItAll 20th Mar 17, 6:29 PM
    • 3,935 Posts
    • 3,261 Thanks
    BeenThroughItAll
    • #2
    • 20th Mar 17, 6:29 PM
    • #2
    • 20th Mar 17, 6:29 PM
    When you pay for your car insurance and they tell you it is insured, they are supposed to put that on Motor Insurance Database (MID) and I suspect some form of that is uploaded on Police systems.

    What I am finding and hearing from various people is that they get stopped by the police as car is being shown uninsured on MID. The police have a zero-tolerance policy and will impound your car there and then. If you produce any form of insurance documentation they will dismiss it; they only take the database as the defacto record. My understanding is that if you show them proof of insurance then they have to contact the insurance company to clear the discrepency. However, most often than not they will not they do that and will take your vehivcle before you can say 'unfair'.

    Now, the problem is that the insurance companies are sometimes slow to update the database; they can take sevaral days sometimes. On other occassions they will cancel your insurance after a slight problem (eg: a missed direct debit) and will not tell you in time.

    Apart from hearing horror stories from various people, I myself came across this issue. Last week I renewed my long-standing insurance, on Friday morning; made the payment and got documents via email. I assumed I was all insured and good to go. Whilst out and about on sunday, I was waiting in the car for someone; being bored and out of curiousty I checked the MID using my mobile - and hey, my car was showing as uninsured. Damn, how do I get home, I thought. Anyway I took the risk and drove home and was lucky enough not to be picked up by police. I telephoned the insurance company. They said that I was formally and legally insured but they could not explain why MID had not been updated. It was eventually updated on Monday afternoon. Had I been seen by the police over the weekend I would definitely have lost my vehicle.

    What is going on here? Is this some kind of scam between insurance companies, police, recovery and compound companies?
    Originally posted by akkers
    Conspiracy theory cobblers. I was stopped about twelve months ago just aft buying a car, insured, taxed, MOTd, and the policeman simply radioed through to control, who rang the insurer, and confirmed I was covered. Done and dusted in ten minutes.

    I suspect anyone who finds that the police 'don't have time' may well have failed the attitude test.

    And a missed Direct Debit for insurance isn't a 'minor problem'. You're expecting the insurer to poppy up a ful year's cover on tick and to pay it back over twelve months - don't pay, and the insurance is cancelled; what's so unfair about that?
    • ado
    • By ado 20th Mar 17, 6:36 PM
    • 1,188 Posts
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    ado
    • #3
    • 20th Mar 17, 6:36 PM
    • #3
    • 20th Mar 17, 6:36 PM
    I think you are getting a little paranoid if you think that slow updates of the MID are a grand conspiracy theory between insurance companies, impound yards and the police to make money, especially given the lack of traffic and response police across country. I don't know why updates are slow but the MID isn't the only police system or police related system which is slow as both mags court results and PNC often take a day or two to update with some crimes and convictions.

    I also take issue with 'zero tolerance approach' to uninsured cars. Along with many colleagues I have gone out of my way to help people get their cars home if they are uninsured unless the offence or driving standards are such that I have to take a more strict approach. I'll often allow arrangements to be made for another legal driver to move the car or to give the owner the benefit of doubt if they have proof of insurance even if it isn't on the MID, although they will still leave with a HORTI so they will have to provide more proof later.
    • Johno100
    • By Johno100 20th Mar 17, 6:41 PM
    • 2,709 Posts
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    Johno100
    • #4
    • 20th Mar 17, 6:41 PM
    • #4
    • 20th Mar 17, 6:41 PM
    Conspiracy theory cobblers. I was stopped about twelve months ago just aft buying a car, insured, taxed, MOTd, and the policeman simply radioed through to control, who rang the insurer, and confirmed I was covered. Done and dusted in ten minutes.
    Originally posted by BeenThroughItAll
    Sounds like you were stopped during office hours, might have been a different story had you been stopped late at night or early in the morning. But on the other side of the coin I suppose if it turns out you aren't insured, they let you on your way and you wipe out a convents worth of nuns they'd be in a spot of bother.
    Last edited by Johno100; 20-03-2017 at 6:45 PM.
    • motorguy
    • By motorguy 20th Mar 17, 7:01 PM
    • 14,701 Posts
    • 8,120 Thanks
    motorguy
    • #5
    • 20th Mar 17, 7:01 PM
    • #5
    • 20th Mar 17, 7:01 PM
    What is going on here? Is this some kind of scam between insurance companies, police, recovery and compound companies?
    Originally posted by akkers
    Yes, absolutely. And local chinese restaurants are in on it too.

    The police get a back hander from the recovery and compound companies but as they cant take cash, they get it as a free carry out from their local chinese.

    The police wait until the insurance companies offices close @ 17:00, knowing they have until 18:00 when their get their dinner break on shift to find a car that "uninsured".

    The evidence of it is right in front of us. Why do you think so many police men are overweight? Its a "scam" that started out in America, where this is now the typical size of a policeman

    Regards

    Paul
    • Joe Horner
    • By Joe Horner 20th Mar 17, 7:53 PM
    • 3,825 Posts
    • 3,206 Thanks
    Joe Horner
    • #6
    • 20th Mar 17, 7:53 PM
    • #6
    • 20th Mar 17, 7:53 PM
    The police have a zero-tolerance policy and will impound your car there and then. If you produce any form of insurance documentation they will dismiss it; they only take the database as the defacto record. My understanding is that if you show them proof of insurance then they have to contact the insurance company to clear the discrepency.
    Originally posted by akkers
    Your understanding is wrong.

    If you show evidence of insurance (a certificate naming you and covering use of that car) then they have to accept that and allow you to go on your way. If they don't and it transpires that you did indeed have insurance then it's an unlawful seizure.

    The law's quite clear on that and, if they don't, you'll be entitled to sue for any losses incurred because of the unlawful seizure - not necessarily limited to the cost of recovering the car.
    • antrobus
    • By antrobus 20th Mar 17, 8:12 PM
    • 14,491 Posts
    • 20,470 Thanks
    antrobus
    • #7
    • 20th Mar 17, 8:12 PM
    • #7
    • 20th Mar 17, 8:12 PM
    Your understanding is wrong.
    ....
    Originally posted by Joe Horner
    That's certainly not what happens on Police Interceptors. Or any of those other similar programme. Cars do flash up as not insured on ANPR, drivers do insist that they are insured, and sometimes they're even right. Perhaps it's because they know they're on TV, but the boys and girls in uniform do seem to carry out some form of investigation.
    • Johno100
    • By Johno100 20th Mar 17, 8:24 PM
    • 2,709 Posts
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    Johno100
    • #8
    • 20th Mar 17, 8:24 PM
    • #8
    • 20th Mar 17, 8:24 PM
    Yes, absolutely. And local chinese restaurants are in on it too.

    The police get a back hander from the recovery and compound companies but as they cant take cash, they get it as a free carry out from their local chinese.

    The police wait until the insurance companies offices close @ 17:00, knowing they have until 18:00 when their get their dinner break on shift to find a car that "uninsured".

    The evidence of it is right in front of us. Why do you think so many police men are overweight? Its a "scam" that started out in America, where this is now the typical size of a policeman
    Originally posted by motorguy
    Your post is obviously tongue in cheek, but the BIB is seemingly not that far from the truth.

    http://www.expressandstar.com/news/2010/11/23/west-midlands-police-pay-out-1-3m-for-breakdown-tip-offs/
    • Joe Horner
    • By Joe Horner 20th Mar 17, 8:32 PM
    • 3,825 Posts
    • 3,206 Thanks
    Joe Horner
    • #9
    • 20th Mar 17, 8:32 PM
    • #9
    • 20th Mar 17, 8:32 PM
    That's certainly not what happens on Police Interceptors. Or any of those other similar programme. Cars do flash up as not insured on ANPR, drivers do insist that they are insured, and sometimes they're even right. Perhaps it's because they know they're on TV, but the boys and girls in uniform do seem to carry out some form of investigation.
    Originally posted by antrobus

    What's supposed to happen is:
    • You get tugged.
    • You show certificate (still the only official evidence that's accepted at the roadside).
    • They let you on your way.
    • If they have doubts then they're perfectly free to make inquiries and come and arrest you later if it turns out the certificate was duff. At which point driving without insurance is likely to be the least of your worries.

    It's been tested in court and clearly confirmed that if you show a (valid) certificate that does cover then a seizure is unlawful even if the insurance company concerned is called and mistakenly says there's no cover.

    At the roadside a valid certificate trumps the call centre wallah.
    • rich13348
    • By rich13348 20th Mar 17, 8:49 PM
    • 726 Posts
    • 393 Thanks
    rich13348
    What's supposed to happen is:
    • You get tugged.
    • You show certificate (still the only official evidence that's accepted at the roadside).
    • They let you on your way.
    • If they have doubts then they're perfectly free to make inquiries and come and arrest you later if it turns out the certificate was duff. At which point driving without insurance is likely to be the least of your worries.

    It's been tested in court and clearly confirmed that if you show a (valid) certificate that does cover then a seizure is unlawful even if the insurance company concerned is called and mistakenly says there's no cover.

    At the roadside a valid certificate trumps the call centre wallah.
    Originally posted by Joe Horner

    This seems odd though as one can obtain a certificate of insurance by paying one months insurance and then cancel the policy. The certificate is then a worthless piece of paper and the police would be wrong to accept it at face value.
    • EssexExile
    • By EssexExile 20th Mar 17, 8:54 PM
    • 2,072 Posts
    • 1,364 Thanks
    EssexExile
    Your post is obviously tongue in cheek, but the BIB is seemingly not that far from the truth.

    http://www.expressandstar.com/news/2010/11/23/west-midlands-police-pay-out-1-3m-for-breakdown-tip-offs/
    Originally posted by Johno100
    And halfway down that story in our astute local rag (of 7 years ago)
    Rolf Harris 'spotted walking outside Wolverhampton's New Cross Hospital'
    Tall, dark & handsome. Well two out of three ain't bad.
    • Tarambor
    • By Tarambor 20th Mar 17, 9:00 PM
    • 533 Posts
    • 340 Thanks
    Tarambor
    Your understanding is wrong.

    If you show evidence of insurance (a certificate naming you and covering use of that car) then they have to accept that and allow you to go on your way.
    Originally posted by Joe Horner
    Not since the introduction of the MID due to the amount of people who would sign up for insurance, get the bit of paper then cancel.
    • Johno100
    • By Johno100 20th Mar 17, 9:01 PM
    • 2,709 Posts
    • 2,845 Thanks
    Johno100
    And halfway down that story in our astute local rag (of 7 years ago)

    Originally posted by EssexExile
    And you think in these cash strapped days for the police it is any different?
    • AndyMc.....
    • By AndyMc..... 20th Mar 17, 9:18 PM
    • 397 Posts
    • 253 Thanks
    AndyMc.....
    Not since the introduction of the MID due to the amount of people who would sign up for insurance, get the bit of paper then cancel.
    Originally posted by Tarambor
    They're still meant to accept the certificate as proof of insurance unless there's evidence to the contrary.
    • Joe Horner
    • By Joe Horner 20th Mar 17, 9:45 PM
    • 3,825 Posts
    • 3,206 Thanks
    Joe Horner
    This seems odd though as one can obtain a certificate of insurance by paying one months insurance and then cancel the policy. The certificate is then a worthless piece of paper and the police would be wrong to accept it at face value.
    Originally posted by rich13348
    It doesn't matter. The law's quite clear that, if you provide evidence of insurance at the roadside, then seizing the vehicle isn't allowed. It also defines the required evidence as being the certificate of insurance.

    In cases like you mention, the police action is supposed to be to allow you on your way and follow it up with the insurer if they have suspicions. If it turns out that's what you've done then you're open to fraud charges which carry much heavier penalties than an IN10!

    Not since the introduction of the MID due to the amount of people who would sign up for insurance, get the bit of paper then cancel.
    Originally posted by Tarambor
    No, the law has been tested in court since the introduction of the MIB. The case in question was Pryor v Greater Manchester Police [2011] EWCA Civ 749 and the Court of Appeal's finding was this (paraphrased):

    If a valid certificate is presented then, regardless of any other evidence the police may have, seizure is unlawful and the police are liable for damages in tort.


    In Pryor the "other evidence" was a "no insurance" hit on the MID and a phone call to the insurers concerned in which the insurer's customer services stated outright that the cover wasn't valid in the circumstances (DOC cover on an otherwise uninsured car). As it later turned out they were wrong, the cover was valid, and the seizure was unlawful.
    • Car 54
    • By Car 54 20th Mar 17, 11:46 PM
    • 1,841 Posts
    • 1,154 Thanks
    Car 54

    What I am finding and hearing from various people is that they get stopped by the police as car is being shown uninsured on MID.
    Originally posted by akkers
    I've been driving for 50 years and have never been stopped by the police for any reason. I've never heard of any of my friends acquaintances or colleagues being stopped for having no insurance. Could you perhaps be moving in the wrong circles?
    • interstellaflyer
    • By interstellaflyer 21st Mar 17, 8:37 AM
    • 1,580 Posts
    • 925 Thanks
    interstellaflyer
    That's certainly not what happens on Police Interceptors. Or any of those other similar programme. Cars do flash up as not insured on ANPR, drivers do insist that they are insured, and sometimes they're even right. Perhaps it's because they know they're on TV, but the boys and girls in uniform do seem to carry out some form of investigation.
    Originally posted by antrobus
    Yes I watch those programs as well, you generally find, yes they do have an insurance certificate, however, the insurance company has cancelled their insurance due to the fact that they not kept up the monthly payments, they are supposed to send the insurance certificate back but they don't because they think they can pull the wool over the Policeman's eyes should they get stopped, or they think they are on a trade policy, or they think that their insurance for another vehicle covers them, can't remember any episode where they have wrongfully seized a car for no insurance.
    I hate football and do wish people wouldn't keep talking about it like it's the most important thing in the world
    • motorguy
    • By motorguy 21st Mar 17, 9:24 AM
    • 14,701 Posts
    • 8,120 Thanks
    motorguy
    Your post is obviously tongue in cheek, but the BIB is seemingly not that far from the truth.

    http://www.expressandstar.com/news/2010/11/23/west-midlands-police-pay-out-1-3m-for-breakdown-tip-offs/
    Originally posted by Johno100
    I've no issues with that. They've a duty to clear the roads after an accident and if they have agreements in place and get referral fees that offsets the cost to of the force to the taxpayer then great.

    I might forward that on to the PSNI here in Northern Ireland. The other friday evening they quite happily let a very light two car bump sit in the outside lane of the M1, the main arterial route out of Belfast for well over an hour, causing a tailback of 7 miles, whilst they no doubt filled in paperwork on the hard shoulder...
    Regards

    Paul
    • Ant555
    • By Ant555 21st Mar 17, 4:49 PM
    • 620 Posts
    • 226 Thanks
    Ant555
    What's supposed to happen is:
    • You get tugged.

    • You show certificate (still the only official evidence that's accepted at the roadside).
    • They let you on your way.

    It's been tested in court and clearly confirmed that if you show a (valid) certificate that does cover then a seizure is unlawful even if the insurance company concerned is called and mistakenly says there's no cover.

    At the roadside a valid certificate trumps the call centre wallah.
    Originally posted by Joe Horner
    Do you know if a pdf/electronic version of the certificate shown on your phone would be considered 'showing the certificate' or does it have to be printed?
    • Aretnap
    • By Aretnap 22nd Mar 17, 11:13 AM
    • 2,590 Posts
    • 2,049 Thanks
    Aretnap
    Do you know if a pdf/electronic version of the certificate shown on your phone would be considered 'showing the certificate' or does it have to be printed?
    Originally posted by Ant555
    Since 2010 electronic certificates have been acceptable as an alternative to printed certificates (link).

    If you're old-fashioned and/or paranoid about such things it is still worth printing off a copy to keep in the car in the event that your phone is out of battery/not working/has no signal.
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