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    • SamPerry
    • By SamPerry 19th Mar 17, 2:03 PM
    • 18Posts
    • 12Thanks
    SamPerry
    UKPC 'Driver left site'
    • #1
    • 19th Mar 17, 2:03 PM
    UKPC 'Driver left site' 19th Mar 17 at 2:03 PM
    Hi,

    I just wanted some advice about a parking charge attached to the windscreen of a car I am the registered keeper of at a UKPC controlled car park a couple of days ago. The note inside states that the attendant had reason to believe that the driver/owner had left site-this is against the terms of parking which are displayed, albeit very high up in small print, on numerous signs around the car park.

    No notice or gate/doorway etc warning that proceeding past would result in leaving the site appears to be present at the location. Nor did anyone (i.e. the parking attendant who issued the notice) make any warning that it was the site boundary. There also does not appear to be a boundary map displayed whenlooked for after the PCN was issued.

    Cash was used in the restaraunt and no receipt was retained so have no proof (apart from restaraunt cctv).

    I've read up on here and other forums about this but am a little confused as I'm led to believe the law has recently changed on such matters.

    Many thanks in advance.
    Last edited by SamPerry; 19-03-2017 at 8:54 PM.
Page 2
    • SamPerry
    • By SamPerry 19th Mar 17, 3:36 PM
    • 18 Posts
    • 12 Thanks
    SamPerry
    Thanks for the advice and replies so far. Having read through them am I best therefore to do the following:

    Contact the site owner now to explain the circumstances and ask them to have the ticket cancelled.

    Send the appeal from the template in the newbies thread after 26days.

    Many thanks again.
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 19th Mar 17, 3:42 PM
    • 40,418 Posts
    • 80,734 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    Ok. I have re-edited it again leaving in the basic facts and no first person. I appreciate the advice and please do tell me if you feel it's still wrong.
    Originally posted by SamPerry
    Last paragraph, middle line, still uses first person singular.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 19th Mar 17, 3:43 PM
    • 40,418 Posts
    • 80,734 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    Thanks for the advice and replies so far. Having read through them am I best therefore to do the following:

    Contact the site owner now to explain the circumstances and ask them to have the ticket cancelled.

    Send the appeal from the template in the newbies thread after 26days.

    Many thanks again.
    Originally posted by SamPerry
    Correct on both counts. Just make sure you don't miss the appeal deadline.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • SamPerry
    • By SamPerry 19th Mar 17, 3:45 PM
    • 18 Posts
    • 12 Thanks
    SamPerry
    Last paragraph, middle line, still uses first person singular.
    Originally posted by Fruitcake
    Missed that. Have removed paragraph as it's irrelevant anyway. Thanks again.
    • SamPerry
    • By SamPerry 19th Mar 17, 3:50 PM
    • 18 Posts
    • 12 Thanks
    SamPerry
    Correct on both counts. Just make sure you don't miss the appeal deadline.
    Originally posted by Fruitcake
    Appeal must be within 28days according to the ticket so I'll send an email on day 26. Is that ok or can they claim it's too late if they don't read it until after 28 days?
    • SamPerry
    • By SamPerry 19th Mar 17, 3:54 PM
    • 18 Posts
    • 12 Thanks
    SamPerry
    Additionally, having just viewed he photos on their website of this PCN there are no photos suggesting that any occupant of the car left the site as claimed. Should they not be posting the photos backing up their claims as well as those showing a ticket was attached to the car and a sign was visible regarding the rules?
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 19th Mar 17, 3:55 PM
    • 14,947 Posts
    • 23,473 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    Appeal must be within 28days according to the ticket so I'll send an email on day 26. Is that ok or can they claim it's too late if they don't read it until after 28 days?
    Originally posted by SamPerry
    Once it's dated, that's it. You can't budget for what any PPC might or might not do, but I think you're looking for problems that probably won't happen.

    Make sure you follow the instructions of the PPC for sending the appeal. If they say email is OK, then do it that way. They may say only online via their website. Do whatever the NtK says.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 19th Mar 17, 4:21 PM
    • 40,418 Posts
    • 80,734 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    Additionally, having just viewed he photos on their website of this PCN there are no photos suggesting that any occupant of the car left the site as claimed. Should they not be posting the photos backing up their claims as well as those showing a ticket was attached to the car and a sign was visible regarding the rules?
    Originally posted by SamPerry
    That will be something you ask them to prove at PoPLA. Since they don't (shouldn't) know the identity of the driver, they can't prove that random people in a photo includes the driver. They would need video evidence of someone driving in, getting out of the driver's seat of the vehicle in question, and continuous footage of that person all the way beyond the site boundary.
    They would also have to prove where the site boundary was.

    By doing all of this they would shoot themselves in the foot by proving they failed to mitigate their loss. They would also not be able to prove that the person driving is in fact the keeper.

    Personally I would be asking why a random person was filming children, but that's just me being awkward. I do not believe however that any such video footage exists, and if it did they would have to prove that it's use for parking management complied with ICO requirements.

    As above, you are overthinking this.

    You challenge something, it is up to them to prove the opposite.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • SamPerry
    • By SamPerry 19th Mar 17, 4:28 PM
    • 18 Posts
    • 12 Thanks
    SamPerry
    That will be something you ask them to prove at PoPLA. Since they don't (shouldn't) know the identity of the driver, they can't prove that random people in a photo includes the driver. They would need video evidence of someone driving in, getting out of the driver's seat of the vehicle in question, and continuous footage of that person all the way beyond the site boundary.
    They would also have to prove where the site boundary was.

    By doing all of this they would shoot themselves in the foot by proving they failed to mitigate their loss. They would also not be able to prove that the person driving is in fact the keeper.

    Personally I would be asking why a random person was filming children, but that's just me being awkward. I do not believe however that any such video footage exists, and if it did they would have to prove that it's use for parking management complied with ICO requirements.

    As above, you are overthinking this.

    You challenge something, it is up to them to prove the opposite.
    Originally posted by Fruitcake
    I very much appreciate the feedback from yourself and the others who have replied. It's a great help and I shall follow it. I'll write to the sites managment tomorrow and have set a reminder to appeal on day 26 if I get nowhere with the site owner.

    Thanks again.
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 19th Mar 17, 4:37 PM
    • 14,947 Posts
    • 23,473 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    'Leaving the site' is one of the shakiest grounds for pursuing a 'parking' charge by any PPC. In my view it's a major 'try-on' and anyone who fights back will win this easily (as long as there are no admissions).

    This is the PPC trying to pick the very lowest hanging fruit. Those who are daft enough to pay will do just fine, thank you very much!

    To my knowledge - and I'm on here virtually every day and for the past 4 years - not one PPC has dared take one of these to the county court after Judge McIlwaine ripped VCS and Miss Coates a new one each during the Ibbotson case!
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 19th Mar 17, 4:38 PM
    • 40,418 Posts
    • 80,734 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    I very much appreciate the feedback from yourself and the others who have replied. It's a great help and I shall follow it. I'll write to the sites managment tomorrow and have set a reminder to appeal on day 26 if I get nowhere with the site owner.

    Thanks again.
    Originally posted by SamPerry
    Don't forget to try more than one retailer. They may have the same deal as the one near me were any manager can cancel a ticket.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 19th Mar 17, 5:17 PM
    • 50,691 Posts
    • 64,104 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    UKPC do not allow email appeals. Online appeals page, choose 'registered keeper'.

    I suspect the Managers will NOT be allowed to cancel a UKPC charge but the overall Management Agent will.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 19th Mar 17, 5:20 PM
    • 40,418 Posts
    • 80,734 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    UKPC do not allow email appeals. Online appeals page, choose 'registered keeper'.

    I suspect the Managers will NOT be allowed to cancel a UKPC charge but the overall Management Agent will.
    Originally posted by Coupon-mad
    ... and watch out because the select boxes default to Driver and change back to Driver if you edit another part of the online form.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • SamPerry
    • By SamPerry 19th Mar 17, 6:23 PM
    • 18 Posts
    • 12 Thanks
    SamPerry
    Thanks again.

    Purely out of interest, what difference does it make if it's the driver or registered keeper in such an instance as this? Especially as the ticket was attached to the windscreen and not in the post?

    I know nothing about this and am just interested.
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 19th Mar 17, 6:30 PM
    • 40,418 Posts
    • 80,734 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    Thanks again.

    Purely out of interest, what difference does it make if it's the driver or registered keeper in such an instance as this? Especially as the ticket was attached to the windscreen and not in the post?

    I know nothing about this and am just interested.
    Originally posted by SamPerry
    The keeper (who may or may not be the registered keeper) has the protection of the Protection of Freedom Act 2012 behind them. The scammers must comply with each and every requirement of the act in order to transfer liability to the keeper.
    Most PPCs fail to comply with the act and therefore the keeper cannot be held liable.

    The driver has no such protection. This is why were banging on about not revealing the driver's identity.

    All this is explained in the NEWBIES thread. You therefore still have some homework to do.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • catfunt
    • By catfunt 19th Mar 17, 8:09 PM
    • 593 Posts
    • 909 Thanks
    catfunt
    First of all, Sam perry is of course NOT my real name! I have ensured that details like that can not be linked to me in case this comes to appeal or court etc.

    Secondly thanks for the reply. No one approached the driver or made any reasonable attempt to tell me the driver was leaving the site. If they had the driverwould have stepped back into car park land to avoid breaching the terms of parking. The signs did state that you couldn't leave the site. But the driver saw nothing to indicate the site boundary such as a line, closed gate, notice etc.

    It is UK parking control LTD and I am the registered keeper of the car.
    Originally posted by SamPerry
    Please edit your posts as above !!!!!
    Got a Private Parking Notice??
    ** Do Not Pay
    ** Do Not Ignore a Notice to Keeper (except Scotland)
    ** Do not mention who was driving (No "Me" Myself" "I")
    ** Never, ever phone a Private Parking Company
    ** Please read the NEWBIES thread at the top of the forum
    • SamPerry
    • By SamPerry 6th May 17, 12:29 PM
    • 18 Posts
    • 12 Thanks
    SamPerry
    Thanks again for all the replies and help on this site. Just to let you know I appealed as advised on day 26 by copying the appeal letter from the newbie thread and got a reply the other day that the charge has been cancelled. Perhaps slightly disappointed as I was looking forward more to the next stage of the appeal but relieved it's all over!

    Thanks again.
    • MothballsWallet
    • By MothballsWallet 6th May 17, 12:44 PM
    • 11,320 Posts
    • 14,853 Thanks
    MothballsWallet
    Thanks for the reply. I didn't think the financial loss would be relevant.

    it is U.K. Parking Control. The ticket states an address in Coventry and and signs also have an address in Middx. But it appears to be the company you have linked to.

    Am I best to appeal this stating along the lines of what I have put in my original post?

    Thanks again
    Originally posted by SamPerry
    Just out of interest, which address in Coventry (as that's my home city and I may know it)?
    Always ask yourself one question: What would Gibbs do?
    Married to an immigrant.
    • SamPerry
    • By SamPerry 6th May 17, 6:13 PM
    • 18 Posts
    • 12 Thanks
    SamPerry
    According to the letter it's The Apex, sheriffs orchard, CV1 3PP
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 6th May 17, 6:19 PM
    • 50,691 Posts
    • 64,104 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Thanks again for all the replies and help on this site. Just to let you know I appealed as advised on day 26 by copying the appeal letter from the newbie thread and got a reply the other day that the charge has been cancelled. Perhaps slightly disappointed as I was looking forward more to the next stage of the appeal but relieved it's all over!

    Thanks again.
    Originally posted by SamPerry
    Great news! Sounds like the retailer complaint did the trick, if you did that as well?
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

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