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  • FIRST POST
    • SamPerry
    • By SamPerry 19th Mar 17, 2:03 PM
    • 18Posts
    • 12Thanks
    SamPerry
    UKPC 'Driver left site'
    • #1
    • 19th Mar 17, 2:03 PM
    UKPC 'Driver left site' 19th Mar 17 at 2:03 PM
    Hi,

    I just wanted some advice about a parking charge attached to the windscreen of a car I am the registered keeper of at a UKPC controlled car park a couple of days ago. The note inside states that the attendant had reason to believe that the driver/owner had left site-this is against the terms of parking which are displayed, albeit very high up in small print, on numerous signs around the car park.

    No notice or gate/doorway etc warning that proceeding past would result in leaving the site appears to be present at the location. Nor did anyone (i.e. the parking attendant who issued the notice) make any warning that it was the site boundary. There also does not appear to be a boundary map displayed whenlooked for after the PCN was issued.

    Cash was used in the restaraunt and no receipt was retained so have no proof (apart from restaraunt cctv).

    I've read up on here and other forums about this but am a little confused as I'm led to believe the law has recently changed on such matters.

    Many thanks in advance.
    Last edited by SamPerry; 19-03-2017 at 8:54 PM.
Page 1
    • Half_way
    • By Half_way 19th Mar 17, 2:23 PM
    • 3,608 Posts
    • 5,105 Thanks
    Half_way
    • #2
    • 19th Mar 17, 2:23 PM
    • #2
    • 19th Mar 17, 2:23 PM
    Financial loss is a red herring and will get you nowhere following the Beavis decision.
    However you are on very strong grounds.
    Who is the car park owner, you say this is a retail park but where?

    Is this UK Parking control Limited (UKPC) company number 05104383, Director Mr Rupert Williams,Correspondence address 28a Tempus Towen, Irwell Quays, Manchester, M3 1PJ ? ( details here https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/05104383/officers)
    From the Plain Language Commission:

    "The BPA has surely become one of the most socially dangerous organisations in the UK"
    • SamPerry
    • By SamPerry 19th Mar 17, 2:35 PM
    • 18 Posts
    • 12 Thanks
    SamPerry
    • #3
    • 19th Mar 17, 2:35 PM
    • #3
    • 19th Mar 17, 2:35 PM
    Thanks for the reply. I didn't think the financial loss would be relevant.

    it is U.K. Parking Control. The ticket states an address in Coventry and and signs also have an address in Middx. But it appears to be the company you have linked to.

    Am I best to appeal this stating along the lines of what I have put in my original post?

    Thanks again
    Last edited by SamPerry; 19-03-2017 at 8:55 PM.
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 19th Mar 17, 2:55 PM
    • 39,262 Posts
    • 78,443 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    • #4
    • 19th Mar 17, 2:55 PM
    • #4
    • 19th Mar 17, 2:55 PM
    Thanks for the reply. I didn't think the financial loss would be relevant.

    it is U.K. Parking Control. The ticket states an address in Coventry and and signs also have an address in Middx. But it appears to be the company you have linked to.

    Am I best to appeal this stating along the lines of what I have put in my original post?

    Thanks again.

    EDIT

    In answer to your other question, the car park owner is a leisure park. There is a Cineworld, bowling alleys and several chain eateries. I did think of contacting them but from what I've read in other threads here it's unlikely to come to anything as they have contracted UKPC to look after parking matters.
    Originally posted by SamPerry
    Start by editing your original post to remove any indication of who did what. We only want to know about The Driver and The Keeper, nobody else.

    Do this NOW before you do anything else.

    Next, read the Sticky thread for NEWBIES and then send the BPA template in blue from the NEWBIES around day 26.
    Do not edit it, do not reveal who was driving. Copy and paste and send in a few weeks time.

    It is always worth complaining to the retail manager/landowner. That's the best way to get these scam tickets cancelled. In a retail park near me, one of the managers told me it is in their contract that a manager from any of the retail shops has the power to cancel a parking ticket for a genuine customer. It won't hurt to go round each one in turn, starting with the one you visited on this occasion, especially I you have visited any of the others in the past.
    Do not however miss the UKPC appeal deadline.

    In the unlikely event this ever came to court, the scammers would have to prove that the driver left the site, and also explain why the employee didn't tell the diver they should not do so in order to mitigate the PPC's loss which is a breach of the BPA CoP.
    Last edited by Fruitcake; 19-03-2017 at 3:03 PM.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 19th Mar 17, 2:58 PM
    • 47,054 Posts
    • 60,422 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #5
    • 19th Mar 17, 2:58 PM
    • #5
    • 19th Mar 17, 2:58 PM
    Am I best to appeal this stating along the lines of what I have put in my original post?
    Absolutely and completely not.

    That's why an appeal template for BPA firms is in the 'NEWBIES PLEASE READ THESE FAQS FIRST' thread, to stop people appealing too early and stop them shooting themselves in the foot by talking about who parked and what happened.

    Day 26, online appeal as keeper, use the appeal in blue writing (please don't copy it here and ask 'is it this one?' yes, it is).

    Don't try to step outside of this tried and tested winning formula for UKPC cases - it works.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • SamPerry
    • By SamPerry 19th Mar 17, 3:03 PM
    • 18 Posts
    • 12 Thanks
    SamPerry
    • #6
    • 19th Mar 17, 3:03 PM
    • #6
    • 19th Mar 17, 3:03 PM
    In what way should I edit it? I've ensured my individual identity and location is not revealed so this post can not be linked to my exact case. I was just explaining fully the circumstances but shall take some detail out.
    • Half_way
    • By Half_way 19th Mar 17, 3:04 PM
    • 3,608 Posts
    • 5,105 Thanks
    Half_way
    • #7
    • 19th Mar 17, 3:04 PM
    • #7
    • 19th Mar 17, 3:04 PM
    The site owner will have contracted UKPC to lok after their car park.
    This means that the site owner/landholder as principal has asked the pakring company to act is its agents.
    The Principal is jointly and severally liable for the actions of its agents.

    When you left, or apparently left the site, someone would have been watching, in order to issue you with a parking charge notice.
    were you at any point warned by someone that you are about to leave the site and if you did so that you would be issued with a parking charge notice?

    Is this company UK Parking control, or UK parking control limited?
    are you the registered keeper of that vehicle?
    and just spoted this important little snippet: Is Sam Perry your real name?
    From the Plain Language Commission:

    "The BPA has surely become one of the most socially dangerous organisations in the UK"
    • SamPerry
    • By SamPerry 19th Mar 17, 3:05 PM
    • 18 Posts
    • 12 Thanks
    SamPerry
    • #8
    • 19th Mar 17, 3:05 PM
    • #8
    • 19th Mar 17, 3:05 PM
    Ok. I did read the NEWBIES thread but wanted to ensure it was the most update version and check it was relevant here as this appears to me to be an allegation I deliberately ignored the parking rules displayed. Which it was not.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 19th Mar 17, 3:06 PM
    • 47,054 Posts
    • 60,422 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #9
    • 19th Mar 17, 3:06 PM
    • #9
    • 19th Mar 17, 3:06 PM
    Ok. I did read the NEWBIES thread but wanted to ensure it was the most update version and check it was relevant here as this appears to me to be an allegation I deliberately ignored the parking rules displayed. Which it was not.
    Originally posted by SamPerry
    Makes no odds what happened.

    Like so many other newbies, stop trying to reinvent the wheel and thinking your case is different and that you have to write about what happened; you need to do this right and on day 26 as 'registered keeper'.

    And yes - it is up to date advice - never mind the date I started it, you will see the NEWBIES thread was last edited by me this month! Note under the posts says when it was last edited.

    Talking of editing - you need to edit all the details and admissions out of that first post in case of nosy PPCs or people with a dirty tricks agenda who read the forums and might think it's big and clever to show forum posts to PPCs.
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 19-03-2017 at 3:11 PM.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 19th Mar 17, 3:09 PM
    • 39,262 Posts
    • 78,443 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    In what way should I edit it? I've ensured my individual identity and location is not revealed so this post can not be linked to my exact case. I was just explaining fully the circumstances but shall take some detail out.
    Originally posted by SamPerry
    You have described the location of the alleged event with information about the retail outlets at that site, said who did what, who was with the driver and described how they travelled once they got out the car, and what they went to look at.
    How many sites do you think there are where UKPC operate with those specific shops and item of interest for someone to look at? How difficult do you think it would be to work out which specific car park that is?

    It is quite possible for the scammers to put all that together and work out where you were and then link it to this thread where you have told the whole internet who was driving.

    We have seen posts copied direct from the internet fora and used as evidence in court.

    Please do as you were advised, which was to edit the original post before you did anything else, not come back and ask people who have played this game before the reason why.
    Last edited by Fruitcake; 19-03-2017 at 3:12 PM.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • SamPerry
    • By SamPerry 19th Mar 17, 3:10 PM
    • 18 Posts
    • 12 Thanks
    SamPerry
    Thanks for the reply. No one approached the driver or made any reasonable attempt to tell the driver that they were leaving the site. If they had then the driver would have stepped back into car park land to avoid breaching the terms of parking. The signs did state that you couldn't leave the site but there was nothing to indicate the site boundary such as a line, closed gate, notice etc.

    It is UK parking control LTD and I am the registered keeper of the car.
    Last edited by SamPerry; 19-03-2017 at 8:57 PM.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 19th Mar 17, 3:12 PM
    • 47,054 Posts
    • 60,422 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    But we would still edit the first post, if it was us. Nothing about who parked or did what.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • SamPerry
    • By SamPerry 19th Mar 17, 3:14 PM
    • 18 Posts
    • 12 Thanks
    SamPerry
    You have described the location of the alleged event with information about the retail outlets at that site, said who did what, who was with the driver and described how they travelled once they got out the car, and what they went to look at.
    How many sites do you think there are where UKPC operate with those specific shops and item of interest for someone to look at? How difficult do you think it would be to work out which specific car park that is?

    It is quite possible for the scammers to put all that together and work out where you were and then link it to this thread where you have told the whole internet who was driving.

    We have seen posts copied direct from the internet fora and used as evidence in court.

    Please do as you were advised, which was to edit the original post before you did anything else, not come back and ask people who have played this game before the reason why.
    Originally posted by Fruitcake

    Thanks. I have taken large chunks out. I appreciate the advice but don't feel I have said anything which could go against me, and posting for advice on here isn't illegal as far as I'm aware?
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 19th Mar 17, 3:18 PM
    • 47,054 Posts
    • 60,422 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Thanks. I have taken large chunks out. I appreciate the advice but don't feel I have said anything which could go against me, and posting for advice on here isn't illegal as far as I'm aware?
    Originally posted by SamPerry
    No, it isn't (of course) but if linked to you, it blows out of the water the slam dunk winning POPLA point - no keeper liability, which is the entire point of not saying (anywhere) who was driving. And the entire point of appealing at day 26.

    As explained in the NEWBIES thread, to stop UKPC serving a NTK at all. Then you WIN.

    The same would not be possible for a driver...
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Half_way
    • By Half_way 19th Mar 17, 3:21 PM
    • 3,608 Posts
    • 5,105 Thanks
    Half_way
    The usual course of action would be to make sure that words such as I drove/parked etc are not used instead the vehicle was parked is better.

    As for leaving site issues, take a good read of this Ibotson vs VCS, the infamous Toothbrush case:
    http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?act=attach&type=post&id=16231)

    You can see that keeper liability whilst important is only a small bump for the PPc when it comes to left site cases.
    You should use that in any complaint to the landowner, if the landowner refuses to cancel, or is unwilling to do so then getting astatement from them stating that they would like the pakring charge issued by their agents dropped would be good protection for you.
    plus you can use that against the PPC with a simple cease and desist in pursuing this, coupled with a demand that they remove your details and stop processing your personal data under the data protection act, again opening up the door for further action from you against the PPC.
    From the Plain Language Commission:

    "The BPA has surely become one of the most socially dangerous organisations in the UK"
    • SamPerry
    • By SamPerry 19th Mar 17, 3:21 PM
    • 18 Posts
    • 12 Thanks
    SamPerry
    No, it isn't (of course) but if linked to you, it blows out of the water the slam dunk winning POPLA point - no keeper liability, which is the entire point of not saying (anywhere) who was driving. And the entire point of appealing at day 26.

    As explained in the NEWBIES thread, to stop UKPC serving a NTK at all. Then you WIN.

    The same would not be possible for a driver...
    Originally posted by Coupon-mad
    I understand and thanks. Do the edits I have made seem better to you I now?
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 19th Mar 17, 3:23 PM
    • 39,262 Posts
    • 78,443 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    Thanks. I have taken large chunks out. I appreciate the advice but don't feel I have said anything which could go against me, and posting for advice on here isn't illegal as far as I'm aware?
    Originally posted by SamPerry
    You have still left in far to much personal information in my opinion. Too much use of the first person singular, but it is entirely up to you whether you want to leave that in or not. The danger is that if you don't get into the habit of referring only to The Driver or The Keeper, you will post something later that together can be used as an admission of the driver's identity.

    I am not suggesting that asking for advice is illegal, but it is common sense not give away anything you don't need to, and that could mean you throw away a very valuable appeal point if you are not careful.

    You should also be aware of the type of company you are dealing with. They were caught doctoring time stamps on their photo' "evidence." Twisting your own words in order to tell a judge they believe they know the identity of the driver would not be beyond the tactics of such a vile company.
    Last edited by Fruitcake; 19-03-2017 at 3:26 PM.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • SamPerry
    • By SamPerry 19th Mar 17, 3:27 PM
    • 18 Posts
    • 12 Thanks
    SamPerry
    The usual course of action would be to make sure that words such as I drove/parked etc are not used instead the vehicle was parked is better.

    As for leaving site issues, take a good read of this Ibotson vs VCS, the infamous Toothbrush case:


    You can see that keeper liability whilst important is only a small bump for the PPc when it comes to left site cases.
    You should use that in any complaint to the landowner, if the landowner refuses to cancel, or is unwilling to do so then getting astatement from them stating that they would like the pakring charge issued by their agents dropped would be good protection for you.
    plus you can use that against the PPC with a simple cease and desist in pursuing this, coupled with a demand that they remove your details and stop processing your personal data under the data protection act, again opening up the door for further action from you against the PPC.
    Originally posted by Half_way
    You have still left in far to much personal information in my opinion. Too much use of the first person singular, but it is entirely up to you whether you want to leave that in or not. The danger is that if you don't get into the habit of referring only to The Driver or The Keeper, you will post something later that together can be used as an admission of the driver's identity.

    I am not suggesting that asking for advice is illegal, but it is common sense not give away anything you don't need to, and that could mean you throw away a very valuable appeal point if you are not careful.
    Originally posted by Fruitcake
    That makes a lot of sense and I understand now the reasons for the advice. I have re-edited the post and hope it is better now. I wanted to provide info to stop people having to dig for further information.
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 19th Mar 17, 3:27 PM
    • 39,262 Posts
    • 78,443 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    I understand and thanks. Do the edits I have made seem better to you I now?
    Originally posted by SamPerry
    Not in my opinion, but it is your choice whether you take my advice or not. I have only been doing this sort of thing for a few years.

    We still know who didn't see any notices for example. That implies the person who wrote that was driving.

    Like I said before, there is far too much use of the first person singular.
    Last edited by Fruitcake; 19-03-2017 at 3:29 PM.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • SamPerry
    • By SamPerry 19th Mar 17, 3:34 PM
    • 18 Posts
    • 12 Thanks
    SamPerry
    Not in my opinion, but it is your choice whether you take my advice or not. I have only been doing this sort of thing for a few years.

    We still know who didn't see any notices for example. That implies the person who wrote that was driving.

    Like I said before, there is far too much use of the first person singular.
    Originally posted by Fruitcake
    Ok. I have re-edited it again leaving in the basic facts and no first person. I appreciate the advice and please do tell me if you feel it's still wrong.
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