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  • FIRST POST
    • Ithaca
    • By Ithaca 19th Mar 17, 12:20 PM
    • 186Posts
    • 191Thanks
    Ithaca
    Roof eaves membrane - is this much overhang normal?
    • #1
    • 19th Mar 17, 12:20 PM
    Roof eaves membrane - is this much overhang normal? 19th Mar 17 at 12:20 PM
    We've just had our old Finlock concrete gutters replaced and as part of the work the contractors fitted a new layer of roofing membrane over the plastic eaves trays and under the first couple of rows of tiles. The membrane extends into the gutter to such an extent that when the wind picks up it lifts the membrane over the edge of the gutter.

    Photos to show what I mean:
    Pic 1 | Pic 2 | Pic 3 | Pic 4

    Couple of quick questions:

    1) Is this normal for this type of installation? I assumed that as there are plastic eaves trays to seal the gap between gutter and fascia [see Pic 3] the membrane does not need to extend past the last row of tiles?

    2) My concern is that in high winds the rain could slide right over the membrane and miss the gutter completely. Is that likely or will the weight of the water push the membrane back down into the gutter?

    3) I'm tempted to trim the membrane back in line with the bottom edge of the tiles - does that create a risk that water could be blown back up into the roof space?

    At the moment it all looks a bit odd as you can see the fabric flapping in the wind from the garden, but if it's going to keep things more watertight I'll live with it.

    Advice would be welcome!
Page 1
    • Chanes
    • By Chanes 19th Mar 17, 1:16 PM
    • 841 Posts
    • 522 Thanks
    Chanes
    • #2
    • 19th Mar 17, 1:16 PM
    • #2
    • 19th Mar 17, 1:16 PM
    That does not look right at all, I thought the membrane beneath the tiles was to act as a barrier and channel any water that got through into the gutter? The plastic trays should be adequate enough without that additional membrane, shouldn't they?

    Maybe the roofer hasn't finished trimming it?
    • Ithaca
    • By Ithaca 19th Mar 17, 1:21 PM
    • 186 Posts
    • 191 Thanks
    Ithaca
    • #3
    • 19th Mar 17, 1:21 PM
    • #3
    • 19th Mar 17, 1:21 PM
    That does not look right at all, I thought the membrane beneath the tiles was to act as a barrier and channel any water that got through into the gutter? The plastic trays should be adequate enough without that additional membrane, shouldn't they?

    Maybe the roofer hasn't finished trimming it?
    Originally posted by Chanes
    They've definitely finished - packed up on Thursday! They left the excess membrane tucked into the gutters which looked OK, but soon as the wind's picked up over the weekend it's lifted it all out. My assumption was that the eaves trays get any water that gets under the tiles back into the gutters, and the eaves membrane extends up past the eaves trays to do the same job with them. Which as you say means in theory the membrane doesn't need to go past the end of the tiles.

    It's not a big job for me to trim it back but need to confirm approach before the scaffolding goes (after which it becomes much trickier).
    • Atasas
    • By Atasas 19th Mar 17, 1:47 PM
    • 620 Posts
    • 130 Thanks
    Atasas
    • #4
    • 19th Mar 17, 1:47 PM
    • #4
    • 19th Mar 17, 1:47 PM
    We've just had our old Finlock concrete gutters replaced and as part of the work the contractors fitted a new layer of roofing membrane over the plastic eaves trays and under the first couple of rows of tiles. The membrane extends into the gutter to such an extent that when the wind picks up it lifts the membrane over the edge of the gutter.

    Photos to show what I mean:
    Pic 1 | Pic 2 | Pic 3 | Pic 4

    Couple of quick questions:

    1) Is this normal for this type of installation? I assumed that as there are plastic eaves trays to seal the gap between gutter and fascia [see Pic 3] the membrane does not need to extend past the last row of tiles?

    2) My concern is that in high winds the rain could slide right over the membrane and miss the gutter completely. Is that likely or will the weight of the water push the membrane back down into the gutter?

    3) I'm tempted to trim the membrane back in line with the bottom edge of the tiles - does that create a risk that water could be blown back up into the roof space?

    At the moment it all looks a bit odd as you can see the fabric flapping in the wind from the garden, but if it's going to keep things more watertight I'll live with it.

    Advice would be welcome!
    Originally posted by Ithaca
    1- 'ish... bit of sloppiness it seems, questioning membrane top edge being UNDER old (most likely felt) or god forbid above?

    2- no, unless in stormy weather, but it is not critical, low probability;
    yes, most likely, but it is beside the point. With time that membrane becomes warn and block the flow in gutters, Combination of dirt and this membrane will end up being a problem.

    3- yes, it'll be quick (slow walking pace) job.


    Whilst you got your membrane, scaffolding there (do not use pressure washer) but hard builders broom and slow water hose to brush of dirt from tiles would be recommended job to have done
    • Chanes
    • By Chanes 19th Mar 17, 1:47 PM
    • 841 Posts
    • 522 Thanks
    Chanes
    • #5
    • 19th Mar 17, 1:47 PM
    • #5
    • 19th Mar 17, 1:47 PM
    I am not a roofer but I would trim that fabric back to the tile edge; it doesn't need to channel to the gutter because those plastic trays do that. I can't see any reason for it to be as it is. And I agree, trimming that off from ladders is hugely trickier than off a scaffold!
    • Atasas
    • By Atasas 19th Mar 17, 1:58 PM
    • 620 Posts
    • 130 Thanks
    Atasas
    • #6
    • 19th Mar 17, 1:58 PM
    • #6
    • 19th Mar 17, 1:58 PM
    Also, (looking at the pictures again), I've noticed they are those nasty cement tiles and roofer perhaps wasn't that sloppy, but thought of being helpful, as normal rain water doesn't gush down at the pitch is, but follows the shape- back on that type of tile under side.

    Final advice would be to trim it, so that the membrane, once in the gutter, would be an inch above the bottom. No shorter, no longer.
    Last edited by Atasas; 19-03-2017 at 2:01 PM.
    • Ruski
    • By Ruski 19th Mar 17, 2:10 PM
    • 1,336 Posts
    • 781 Thanks
    Ruski
    • #7
    • 19th Mar 17, 2:10 PM
    • #7
    • 19th Mar 17, 2:10 PM
    IMHO the bottom row of tiles is not far enough down anyway, the bottom nib is resting on the eaves trays which means it is only just protruding far enough into the guttering and probably explains why the tiles are kicking up all over the place! Overhang should be 30 to 50mm into guttering so that rainwater DOES NOT rely on plastic or membrane to fall directly into guttering. Anyway - that's a different story.

    Membrane should fall into the gutter about 20mm from the bottom. Do not reply on eaves trays to direct water into the gutter - they are to support the membrane.

    HTH

    Russ
    Perfection takes time: don't expect miracles in a day
    • Ithaca
    • By Ithaca 19th Mar 17, 2:56 PM
    • 186 Posts
    • 191 Thanks
    Ithaca
    • #8
    • 19th Mar 17, 2:56 PM
    • #8
    • 19th Mar 17, 2:56 PM
    Thanks for the responses - we have some wet weather forecast for the new couple of days so I will ask to keep the scaffolding up for another week or so and see how the gutters cope with some rain. Then I'll get up there and trim the membrane back so it's 2cm or so above the bottom of the gutter and see how that goes.
    • Ithaca
    • By Ithaca 19th Mar 17, 4:15 PM
    • 186 Posts
    • 191 Thanks
    Ithaca
    • #9
    • 19th Mar 17, 4:15 PM
    • #9
    • 19th Mar 17, 4:15 PM
    IMHO the bottom row of tiles is not far enough down anyway, the bottom nib is resting on the eaves trays which means it is only just protruding far enough into the guttering and probably explains why the tiles are kicking up all over the place!

    Russ
    Originally posted by Ruski
    Hmm... having checked again there are a few tiles not sitting flush.

    Tiles 1
    Tiles 2
    Tiles 3

    I think a couple have been replaced with almost-but-not-quite equivalents - are those sort of gaps too large to live with? Feels like wind-driven rain could quite easily get blown in those gaps?
    • Furts
    • By Furts 19th Mar 17, 5:26 PM
    • 3,319 Posts
    • 2,091 Thanks
    Furts
    In general the photos could be used as a perfect example of how not to do roofing. From the misaligned tiles, to the kicked up tiles, to the incorrect eaves with no tile overhang, to the membrane left in the gutter, to the missing birdstops, and the icing on the cake ... the state of the valley. It all leaves me at a loss for words.

    Clearly OP has confidence in these "roofers" because they have been invited to do work on the home. Do not part with any money until everything has been checked out

    A deeply worrying set of photos, and I wonder what else is wrong that us folks on the forum cannot see, and hence cannot comment on.
    • Atasas
    • By Atasas 19th Mar 17, 6:25 PM
    • 620 Posts
    • 130 Thanks
    Atasas
    Just to clarify, what these roofers (gutter fitters) done
    We've just had our old Finlock concrete gutters replaced and as part of the work the contractors fitted a new layer of roofing membrane over the plastic eaves trays and under the first couple of rows of tiles. The membrane extends into the gutter to such an extent that when the wind picks up it lifts the membrane over the edge of the gutter.

    Photos to show what I mean:
    Pic 1 | Pic 2 | Pic 3 | Pic 4
    Originally posted by Ithaca
    As it comes to the tiling etc, they have touched it, but it was not ever properly done as other say.

    Kinda "opening a can of worms", as per most construction jobs or just be sensible and put stop to involvement as long as everything would function OK
    • Ithaca
    • By Ithaca 19th Mar 17, 6:47 PM
    • 186 Posts
    • 191 Thanks
    Ithaca
    Just to clarify. We only contracted the firm in for the gutter replacement - as part of that they needed to remove the first couple of rows of tiles but that should have been all. While they were up on the roof we asked them to do a quick re-pointing of the valley - it was in a very poor state before, so it was just a quick patch job and we probably ought to have it sorted properly now - plus re-point some of the ridge tiles and replace a couple of cracked tiles.

    So in terms of the job it's only really the gutter installation and the first couple of rows of tiles that I will need to discuss with the contractors. There are bird combs on the front of the house so I'll need to confirm they've definitely not been fitted at the back.

    It sounds like the main areas to pick up with the contractor are:
    1) the eaves membrane overhang
    2) the kicked-up tiles on the first 2-3 rows
    3) possible lack of bird combs on one section
    4) whether the tiles overhang the lip of the eaves sufficiently
    4) some standing water [pic] in the gutters (I know it's not always possible to get a perfect fall but not sure if that amount of water is normal, it's about 2cm for a good 1.5m??)

    I've not paid anything up front for the work and it's a small family firm who contract in the labour so I'm hopeful there's not too much effort needed to put things right. I appreciate the pointers on where to highlight though, any other opinions very welcome.

    Edit: sorry, I know it's hard to give good advice when OP doesn't give the full picture up-front. The house is a 1960s property and we are only the second owners (bought 18 months ago in a probate sale, previous owner bought it off-plan in 1962), so this is the first time we've had a proper chance to get up onto the roof and take a good look. There's a good chance some of the tiles weren't aligned properly to start with, but I would have liked the contractors to point that out and tell me it wouldn't go back 100% beforehand, but that still doesn't resolve the other issues.
    Last edited by Ithaca; 19-03-2017 at 6:56 PM.
    • Atasas
    • By Atasas 19th Mar 17, 10:36 PM
    • 620 Posts
    • 130 Thanks
    Atasas
    "kick" wasn't there, judging by the Valey.
    • Furts
    • By Furts 20th Mar 17, 6:36 AM
    • 3,319 Posts
    • 2,091 Thanks
    Furts
    Just to clarify. We only contracted the firm in for the gutter replacement -

    Edit: sorry, I know it's hard to give good advice when OP doesn't give the full picture up-front. The house is a 1960s property and we are only the second owners (bought 18 months ago in a probate sale, previous owner bought it off-plan in 1962), so this is the first time we've had a proper chance to get up onto the roof and take a good look. There's a good chance some of the tiles weren't aligned properly to start with, but I would have liked the contractors to point that out .
    Originally posted by Ithaca

    Equally did the builder point the design life of roof tiles is 60 years. Your tiles are at that point and are chipped/cracked/damaged /misalligned. Your felt will be obsolete, and probably your roof ventilation and condensation control. Rather than cosmetically change matters by tarting up the gutters and bodging the valley a long term cost effective answer might have been to renew the roof properly and tackle all issues in one visit.

    You know the valley was poor, and you know the ridge is not good - if you get the roof renewed your new felt and eaves detail will be replaced and likewise your valley repairs.

    What you have done is a questionable expenditure and questionable logic. It is a course developers follow every day of the week - bodge and scarper comes to mind. However, home owners thinking of the long term need to step back and ponder all this. It all depends on which camp you are in!
    • Ithaca
    • By Ithaca 20th Mar 17, 7:50 AM
    • 186 Posts
    • 191 Thanks
    Ithaca
    You know the valley was poor, and you know the ridge is not good - if you get the roof renewed your new felt and eaves detail will be replaced and likewise your valley repairs.

    What you have done is a questionable expenditure and questionable logic. It is a course developers follow every day of the week - bodge and scarper comes to mind. However, home owners thinking of the long term need to step back and ponder all this. It all depends on which camp you are in!
    Originally posted by Furts
    Fair challenge.

    The roof will need doing at some point but we hope to get a few more years out of it. The roof repairs we've had done were to patch some obvious holes while we plan and budget for a full replacement some time in the next couple of years.

    I take the point about the double expenditure though. The priority for us was the guttering, as this was leaking in some places and causing damp patches on the walls of the house. We could have re-lined or repaired but we applied the same cost logic and decided on replacement as a better long-term option - we perhaps should have continued that thought onto the wider roof though.
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