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  • FIRST POST
    • mae
    • By mae 18th Mar 17, 9:27 AM
    • 1,447Posts
    • 818Thanks
    mae
    Euro Car Parks PCN guidance please
    • #1
    • 18th Mar 17, 9:27 AM
    Euro Car Parks PCN guidance please 18th Mar 17 at 9:27 AM
    Hi

    I have received a PCN for being 34 minutes over the authorised 180 minutes.

    I was doing some work on my laptop in Costa...I have just checked my Costa App and it shows I was in there that day via the points I receive..I didn't realise there was a time limit on the free parking :/ I have rung the manger of Costa but there is nothing he can do.

    Anyway I have read the first post for guidance (love this forum people are so helpful) and I just want to double check that I am right that my first step is to send the letter (copied below) via their online appeals? Is this the correct first letter to send to Euro?

    Dear Sirs

    Re: PCN No. ....................

    I challenge this 'PCN' as keeper of the car.

    I believe that your signs fail the test of 'large lettering' and prominence, as established in ParkingEye Ltd v Beavis. Your unremarkable and obscure signs were not seen by the driver, are in very small print and the terms are not readable to drivers.

    There will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn. You must either rely on the POFA 2012 and offer me a POPLA code, or cancel the charge.

    Should you obtain the registered keeper's data from the DVLA without reasonable cause, please take this as formal notice that I reserve the right to sue your company and the landowner/principal, for a sum not less than £250 for any Data Protection Act breach. Your aggressive business practice and unwarranted threat of court for the ordinary matter of a driver using my car without causing any obstruction nor offence, has caused significant distress to me.

    I do not give you consent to process data relating to me or this vehicle. I deny liability for any sum at all and you must consider this letter a Section 10 Notice under the DPA. You are required to respond within 21 days. I have kept proof of submission of this appeal and look forward to your reply.

    Yours faithfully,
    Last edited by mae; 18-03-2017 at 9:30 AM.
Page 2
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 27th Apr 17, 9:29 AM
    • 14,977 Posts
    • 23,529 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    Hi

    I've sent my POPLA but just wanted to check do I also need to notify ECP that I have done this or are they notified automatically because of the code they generated?
    Originally posted by mae
    POPLA will send ECP a copy for them to produce any evidence they have.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • mae
    • By mae 4th May 17, 8:46 AM
    • 1,447 Posts
    • 818 Thanks
    mae
    Hi

    ECP have now uploaded their evidence. I have 7 days to respond but to be honest I don't have a response so I guess I just wait for the decision now?
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 4th May 17, 11:33 PM
    • 50,736 Posts
    • 64,129 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    You do have response. You are able to scrutinise the evidence, like all other posters do! Don't miss this chance.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • mae
    • By mae 5th May 17, 8:08 AM
    • 1,447 Posts
    • 818 Thanks
    mae
    You do have response. You are able to scrutinise the evidence, like all other posters do! Don't miss this chance.
    Originally posted by Coupon-mad
    Oh I see. I will try and see if I understand where I can disagree with the evidence but I really don't think I can disagree I mean... I will have a good look this evening. I don't think I'm as good at this as other posters Ive been reading who have won as they seem to be really on the ball detectives
    Last edited by mae; 28-05-2017 at 7:49 AM. Reason: Spelling
    • mae
    • By mae 26th May 17, 10:51 AM
    • 1,447 Posts
    • 818 Thanks
    mae
    Just to update I won the appeal thank you for the help
    • torontoboy45
    • By torontoboy45 26th May 17, 11:09 AM
    • 1,017 Posts
    • 2,123 Thanks
    torontoboy45
    Just to update I won the appeal thank you for the help
    Originally posted by mae
    Congratulations!

    Now spread the word amongst family/friends/colleagues about just how an invaluable a tool this board is.

    Being relatively inexperienced I couldn't offer any meaningful advice but there are battle-hardened experts on here who did, and all ended happily.

    Well done.
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 26th May 17, 12:06 PM
    • 14,977 Posts
    • 23,529 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    Just to update I won the appeal thank you for the help
    Originally posted by mae
    Can you tell us what POPLA said please?
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • mae
    • By mae 26th May 17, 3:31 PM
    • 1,447 Posts
    • 818 Thanks
    mae
    This is what the POPLA said

    Assessor summary of operator case
    The operator issued a Parking Charge Notice (PCN) because the driver exceeded the maximum parking time permitted.

    Assessor summary of your case
    The appellant’s case is the signage was insufficient and they doubt the operator has the landowner’s authority to issue PCNs.

    Assessor supporting rational for decision
    The operator is pursuing the registered keeper for the parking charge as it has not been able to identify the driver of the vehicle. In order for the operator to do this, it must transfer liability for the charge from the driver to the keeper in accordance with PoFA 2012. I have reviewed the copy of the notice to keeper provided by the operator. Schedule 4 Paragraph 9(2)(f) PoFA 2012 provides that the notice to keeper must: ‘warn the keeper that if, after the period of 28 days beginning with the day after that on which the notice is given – (i) The amount of the unpaid parking charges specified under paragraph (d) has not been paid in full; and (ii) The creditor does not know both the name of the driver and a current address for service for the driver, the creditor will (if all the applicable conditions under this Schedule are met) have the right to recover from the keeper so much of that amount as remains unpaid;’ The notice to keeper has not satisfied the above requirements of PoFA 2012. This is because it does not give the correct timescale for the transfer of liability. Under PoFA 2012, transfer of liability occurs after ‘28 days beginning with the day after the date the notice is given’, but the notice to keeper states ’… 29 days from the date given (which is presumed to be the second working day after the Date Issued) …’. The Date Issued is specified on the notice to keeper as 7 March 2017, rather than the date of the notice to keeper itself, which is 15 March 2017. PoFA 2012 has strict requirements for the transfer of liability and these requirements have not been met in this case. The operator has failed to transfer liability from the driver to the registered keeper of the vehicle. Whilst I appreciate the appellant has raised other issues, it is not necessary to consider them in this appeal. Because the operator has failed to transfer liability, the parking charge is not enforceable against the registered keeper.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 27th May 17, 11:34 PM
    • 50,736 Posts
    • 64,129 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Yay, this appeal point really does have legs at POPLA v Euro Car Parks, it's the second win like it in a week, on the DATE ISSUED:

    The notice to keeper has not satisfied the above requirements of PoFA 2012. This is because it does not give the correct timescale for the transfer of liability. Under PoFA 2012, transfer of liability occurs after ‘28 days beginning with the day after the date the notice is given’, but the notice to keeper states ’… 29 days from the date given (which is presumed to be the second working day after the Date Issued) …’.

    The Date Issued is specified on the notice to keeper as 7 March 2017, rather than the date of the notice to keeper itself, which is 15 March 2017. PoFA 2012 has strict requirements for the transfer of liability and these requirements have not been met in this case. The operator has failed to transfer liability from the driver to the registered keeper of the vehicle.

    Whilst I appreciate the appellant has raised other issues, it is not necessary to consider them in this appeal. Because the operator has failed to transfer liability, the parking charge is not enforceable against the registered keeper.
    I dont think Im as good at this as other posters Ive been reading who have won as they seem to be really on the ball detectives


    See, you were good at this!

    Would you mind helping other newbies, by posting about this success v Euro Car Parks in 'POPLA Decisions' near the top and telling us there, the date of decision and your POPLA code and name of the Assessor, please? We can then quote your case to win others v ECP.

    Add a link there, to this thread, and state that it was v Euro Car Parks and quote the decision again, please, as well as the POPLA code etc.
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 27-05-2017 at 11:37 PM.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • mae
    • By mae 28th May 17, 8:06 AM
    • 1,447 Posts
    • 818 Thanks
    mae
    Hi Coupon-mad I have added the info on the POPLA Decision thread.

    Just to clarify by including my POPLA code this doesn't have any lead to personally identifying information does it? And I also noticed some posters have 'xxxx' out the assessors last name. Should I do the same?

    Thanks
    • beamerguy
    • By beamerguy 28th May 17, 8:09 AM
    • 6,169 Posts
    • 7,891 Thanks
    beamerguy
    Hi Coupon-mad I have added the info on the POPLA Decision thread.

    Just to clarify by including my POPLA code this doesn't have any lead to personally identifying information does it? And I also noticed some posters have 'xxxx' out the assessors last name. Should I do the same?

    Thanks
    Originally posted by mae
    Best to but only the PPC and POPLA know who you are
    RBS - MNBA - CAPITAL ONE - LLOYDS

    DISGUSTING BEHAVIOUR
    • mae
    • By mae 28th May 17, 8:20 AM
    • 1,447 Posts
    • 818 Thanks
    mae
    Best to but only the PPC and POPLA know who you are
    Originally posted by beamerguy
    Thanks I have xxx the assessors last name but could you edit your quote on the other thread as it still has it in there
    • beamerguy
    • By beamerguy 28th May 17, 9:26 AM
    • 6,169 Posts
    • 7,891 Thanks
    beamerguy
    Thanks I have xxx the assessors last name but could you edit your quote on the other thread as it still has it in there
    Originally posted by mae
    have done now
    RBS - MNBA - CAPITAL ONE - LLOYDS

    DISGUSTING BEHAVIOUR
    • mae
    • By mae 20th Jun 17, 4:52 PM
    • 1,447 Posts
    • 818 Thanks
    mae
    Hi me again...Im starting to feel like a serial offender as I have just received my second PCN!!!

    This time it was a hospital carpark..well actually I didn't actually park on the official hospital car park in my opinion as I didn't have any change or the required old £1 coins (they haven't updated the machine to take the new £1 coin) so I parked on a little bit of muddy land that had no white lines/spaces like the 'official' tarmac carpark. Ive taken photos.

    So I when I got back I had a PCN on my windscreen from Civil Enforcement Ltd

    So from what I have read on here I do nothing with this windscreen ticket (ie don't contact them at all) until they have written to me through the post? is that right?
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 20th Jun 17, 9:55 PM
    • 14,977 Posts
    • 23,529 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    So from what I have read on here I do nothing with this windscreen ticket (ie don't contact them at all) until they have written to me through the post? is that right?
    Nope, you appeal around day 24/26 as per advice in the NEWBIES FAQ sticky, post #1.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • mae
    • By mae 20th Jun 17, 10:04 PM
    • 1,447 Posts
    • 818 Thanks
    mae
    Oh I see I did read that but I assumed before then I'd get a letter from them?
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 20th Jun 17, 10:06 PM
    • 50,736 Posts
    • 64,129 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    No, they can't get your data for 28 days, which is why you stop them at day 26. It is all explained in the NEWBIES thread, including why '26 days'.
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 20-06-2017 at 11:50 PM.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 20th Jun 17, 10:09 PM
    • 14,977 Posts
    • 23,529 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    Oh I see I did read that but I assumed before then I'd get a letter from them?
    Originally posted by mae
    I think you need to read the sticky more carefully and thoroughly. To the unititiated this is complex stuff. You cannot simply skim read it and hope a couple of questions here and there to the forum will help you sprinkle magic dust over it to get rid of it all for you.

    This needs effort and resilience from you.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • mae
    • By mae 20th Jun 17, 11:08 PM
    • 1,447 Posts
    • 818 Thanks
    mae
    Im clearly a slow learner...Im the same as last time..I will get there.. I have read it but I must need time to process and get rid of my anxiety of not understanding
    • mae
    • By mae 15th Jul 17, 10:32 AM
    • 1,447 Posts
    • 818 Thanks
    mae
    Hi its day 26 tomorrow and I have just been reading in preparation of my first contact with Civil Enforcement Ltd

    I have found their email address (despite their window ticket saying in writing only by post) and I will email the template given on the newbies thread however I just want to clarify something...Do I add the keepers full name and address at the bottom of this first email?

    And also should I include the photos I took at this stage? The photos show I am on waste land with no signs and no car park markings at all.

    This is the template I will copy from the newbies thread

    Dear Sirs

    Re: PCN No. ....................

    I challenge this 'PCN' as keeper of the car.

    I believe that your signs fail the test of 'large lettering' and prominence, as established in ParkingEye Ltd v Beavis. Your unremarkable and obscure signs were not seen by the driver, are in very small print and the terms are not readable to drivers.

    There will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn. You must either rely on the POFA 2012 and offer me a POPLA code, or cancel the charge.

    Should you obtain the registered keeper's data from the DVLA without reasonable cause, please take this as formal notice that I reserve the right to sue your company and the landowner/principal, for a sum not less than £250 for any Data Protection Act breach. Your aggressive business practice and unwarranted threat of court for the ordinary matter of a driver using my car without causing any obstruction nor offence, has caused significant distress to me.

    I do not give you consent to process data relating to me or this vehicle. I deny liability for any sum at all and you must consider this letter a Section 10 Notice under the DPA. You are required to respond within 21 days. I have kept proof of submission of this appeal and look forward to your reply.

    Yours faithfully,
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