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  • FIRST POST
    • weespoon1
    • By weespoon1 16th Mar 17, 12:28 PM
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    weespoon1
    Annual leave approved before notice period - can my employer revoke it?
    • #1
    • 16th Mar 17, 12:28 PM
    Annual leave approved before notice period - can my employer revoke it? 16th Mar 17 at 12:28 PM
    Hi all,

    My husband and I booked our honeymoon back in January, long before I had any intention of leaving my current job. I was offered a great new position and accepted last week, handing in my required 3 month notice period.
    The annual leave for my honeymoon which was approved back in January lies in my notice period and the holiday has been booked costing us a few thousand pounds. Would my employer be able to revoke it?
    Thanks!
Page 2
    • Tammykitty
    • By Tammykitty 16th Mar 17, 3:36 PM
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    Tammykitty
    Don't forget Bank Holidays


    Technically, your annual leave is 28 days, so you are entitled to taken 14 days of it by the End of June, and if you haven't taken it, you should be paid for it.


    You will probably have taken 1st Jan, 2 days at Easter, and 2 bank holidays on May, so only leaves 9 days to take.
    Weight Loss Challenge
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    Restarted 8/05/17 - 41lbs to lose (Managed to put 1 stone on in 4 months!) Progress 6/41 (13/05/17)
    • getmore4less
    • By getmore4less 16th Mar 17, 3:39 PM
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    getmore4less
    20 days means that is + 8 BH

    You will accrue up to 14 days including BH depending when you leave in June(might be 12 or 13) there are 5 BH to take off those.

    As there are 4 of you there should be some way to accommodate each others cover in case they have not got new people on board.

    with the time being 3 weeks of leaving you should be close to have handed over everything anyway.

    What are they going to do about the telling the clients.
    • weespoon1
    • By weespoon1 16th Mar 17, 4:14 PM
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    weespoon1
    We also have the option to work the bank holidays and take them elsewhere if we want to - so I could always do that.

    We all have 3 months notice period and have been told on no uncertain terms are we to tell clients that we are leaving. Personally I don't agree with it - I'd much rather tell me clients know with plenty of notice so they know when to expect a new person taking over their account rather than dropping a bomb on them a week before I go. When I first started the person I was replacing hadn't told her client yet and she was gone within a week of me getting...and some clients still hadn't been told!

    Going in is starting to make me feel physically sick and I've suffered from migraines for the past few weeks due to the issues that have been going on at work and I'm a bit worried if they start to go down the route of threatening legal action that I'll end up signed off with stress. You can probably see why I decided to leave!
    • TBagpuss
    • By TBagpuss 16th Mar 17, 4:43 PM
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    TBagpuss
    Normally, the rule is that an employer can cancel pre-approved leave provided that they give notice of at least the same length as the holiday (i.e. if you have booked 2 weeks off, they would have to give you at least 2 weeks notice that you were cancelling it ) Your contract may include additional provisions, so check that.

    However, if thet wre to seek to cancel your leave in circumstnaces wehre you were going to lose out finacially, and you chose to walk out, this might well amount to contsructive dismissal. They could threaten you wh legal action, but that may be something which is worth mentioneing if they do.

    And of course if they do start behaving badly and that causes you to become ill, you can be signed off. Being signed off for stress does not mean that you can't go on holiday, as what a doctor's note says is that you are not fit to work. Where the illness is stress, a holiday or break may be benficial in helping you to recover. (and, as a fianl point, do you think the company would wnat the bad publicity that would go with them being puvblically named and shamed for forcing you to cancel you wedding /honeymoon *when they had previously approved it*? It could start to look a lot like bullying or victimisation for having given in your notice.
    • weespoon1
    • By weespoon1 16th Mar 17, 4:58 PM
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    weespoon1
    Can you explain how it might be constructive dismissal?
    The MD was an advocate before he set up the company so while usually I'd be happy to slam down the legal action gauntlet, I expect I'd get push back from him.
    This is kind of my hill to die on though because I refuse to cancel my honeymoon.
    • motorguy
    • By motorguy 16th Mar 17, 6:13 PM
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    motorguy
    Can you explain how it might be constructive dismissal?
    The MD was an advocate before he set up the company so while usually I'd be happy to slam down the legal action gauntlet, I expect I'd get push back from him.
    This is kind of my hill to die on though because I refuse to cancel my honeymoon.
    Originally posted by weespoon1
    Whilst its easy to worry about it - i'm a worrier too - heres the reality of it :-
    • You're given them 3 months notice
    • You have previously requested your annual leave and it was approved
    • You ARE going on honeymoon. End of.
    • You are happy to work with them for the remainder of your time there to ensure a successful handover.

    They can huff and puff if they like, however you're going on honeymoon. End of.

    They can either work with you to ensure your successful handover is done around that OR you can come in for the next 3 months, scratch your metaphorical plums, do a half hearted crap handover and go on holiday anyway and theres frankly sod all they can do to stop that.

    Hence my original response - if they show any signs of objection your response is "i am happy to work with you to ensure a successful handover around my upcoming approved annual leave".

    For all their potential postulating around that it doesnt change the outcome - you ARE going on honeymoon - so theres nothing to worry about.
    Last edited by motorguy; 16-03-2017 at 6:26 PM.
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    • getmore4less
    • By getmore4less 16th Mar 17, 6:49 PM
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    getmore4less
    The other thing to do as a group of leavers is set a united front.

    The one thing you no longer have to worry about is losing your job.

    Start referring things back into the management team especially anything that goes beyond your leaving date even if it would normally be within your remit.

    also a kind of silent work to rule, no putting yourself out like you used to things can wait if it is time to go home.

    Back off slowly over the next few weeks.

    in about a month signs of recruitment should be happening.

    The wedding is an idea handover strategy, people take over client thinks its for 2 weeks but is prepared and in the loop and it just keeps going that way.
    • mgdavid
    • By mgdavid 16th Mar 17, 7:00 PM
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    mgdavid
    Does your manager and/or HR actually know that the leave is for your honeymoon? If not then tell them, soon as.
    Just remember, there's plenty of bad employers & managers, plenty of jobs - but only one honeymoon!
    A salary slave no more.....
    • TBagpuss
    • By TBagpuss 16th Mar 17, 7:42 PM
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    TBagpuss
    Can you explain how it might be constructive dismissal?
    The MD was an advocate before he set up the company so while usually I'd be happy to slam down the legal action gauntlet, I expect I'd get push back from him.
    This is kind of my hill to die on though because I refuse to cancel my honeymoon.
    Originally posted by weespoon1
    The constructive dismissal argument would be on the basis that by doing something as unreasonable as [trying to] force you to cancel your honeymoon and lose the financial outlay they would be breaching the implied duty of mutual trust and confidence between employer and employee. Whether or not you would succeed if you *actually* went to an employment tribunal is, of course, a different question, but your aim would be to dissuade your employer from trying to cancel your time off in the first place.

    No sensible employer wants to risk an employment tribunal if they can avoid it. But if they've any sense they will be aware that if they push you too hard you may end up getting signed off sick with stress, in which case you still won' be there but it may be for longer then 2 weeks and with less warning.
    • paddedjohn
    • By paddedjohn 17th Mar 17, 10:37 AM
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    paddedjohn
    If in the unlikely event you have to go off work with stress you can still go on your honeymoon AND still have your holidays accrued for when you return to work or in your case have them paid for in your final wage
    Be Alert..........Britain needs lerts.
    • getmore4less
    • By getmore4less 17th Mar 17, 10:38 AM
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    getmore4less
    Holidays still need approval when sick.
    • weespoon1
    • By weespoon1 17th Mar 17, 12:31 PM
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    weespoon1
    Thanks for all your advice
    Will be speaking with the MD on Monday because they're now arguing that my last day is a week later than what has been calculated and he's asked for a face to face catch up. I'm going to ask my direct line manager to come into that meeting just to make sure there's something else there just in case it goes south.
    My new employer is already aware of them potentially being difficult and isn't phased by it and doesn't need a reference from them (in fact their actual words were 'I'm not interested in reading a bad reference that's clearing only been given because they're not happy that an employee doesn't want to work for them anymore').
    My plan is to let them know using the successful handover phrase that I will be on holiday over my honeymoon (obviously) and I will be handing over before I go, and happy to handover again to new people if they arrive before I'm back in the office in the week that I will be in the office before I leave for good.
    I can't see any employment tribunal agreeing that a relatively junior member of staff being on an approved holiday for two weeks has caused any loss of earnings so can't see how they'd be able to go any further than just threats.
    • getmore4less
    • By getmore4less 17th Mar 17, 1:47 PM
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    getmore4less
    Employment is a small world and reputations are usually well known and your new employer seems have the measure of the old one.

    Easy for me to say, but you have to remember that you are leaving and any posturing and manipulation by the old employer does not effect your future so can listen to any ranting etc and be totally objective about things without the fear of losing your job.

    There are some things you need to keep professional like client interactions but can be more hard nosed on the internal stuff as the leave dates get closer.

    Remember notice starts the day after you give it and is for the contractual period so check that carefully.
    Last edited by getmore4less; 17-03-2017 at 3:34 PM.
    • weespoon1
    • By weespoon1 17th Mar 17, 2:26 PM
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    weespoon1
    What I was worried about was current employer bad-mouthing me to new employer, however you're right, new employer seems to have the measure of the situation.

    I handed in notice on a Thursday specifically so it would kick in on a Friday and would mean my last day was also a Friday according to the notice period in my contact. They're trying to claim it's actually the following Sunday (how I have no idea because I don't work weekends...). Either way I'm leaving on my original calculated end date.

    Absolutely remaining professional with clients - at the end of the day it's not their fault that the business is a mess and I actually really like and get on well with my clients so I would want to make the transition as smooth as possible for them.

    I'm going to see how the meeting goes on Monday and I suppose decide at the time how hard I want to come down on them if they start threatening legal action - I feel a lot better about doing that if I have to after hearing from new employer and the advice on here
    • getmore4less
    • By getmore4less 17th Mar 17, 3:43 PM
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    getmore4less
    If that notice was say Thurs 9th March, last day if 3 months notice would be Friday 9th June.

    Max statutory notice would be 12 weeks with 12 years service, last day 1st June.
    • paddedjohn
    • By paddedjohn 17th Mar 17, 5:07 PM
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    paddedjohn
    Holidays still need approval when sick.
    Originally posted by getmore4less
    Never said they didn't.
    What I'm implying is that if the op was on the sick then they will still have their accrued holidays to take at another time or in their case they can be paid for them in their final salary.
    Be Alert..........Britain needs lerts.
    • jobbingmusician
    • By jobbingmusician 17th Mar 17, 5:53 PM
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    jobbingmusician
    I'd love it if I could get away with not reminding anyone - however we have to do handovers with any projects etc going on over the period we're away so another member of staff is available for the clients I would normally deal with. At the moment I'm still waiting on them to confirm that the holiday entitlement they've told me I have has taken my approved 2 week holiday into account and my plan is to see if they have an issue with honouring that holiday and if they do let them know that I will still be going because of how far in advance it was booked etc etc and see if I can shorten my notice period. It is really miserable and my new employer is aware of the how bad the situation has been at my current work. Other employees would be able to give me references rather than the head of the team should it come to that.
    Originally posted by weespoon1
    I think you can do something like this, though.

    Obviously you can't unpick anything you have already done. Apart from that, don't mention your holiday until four weeks before your holiday period starts. If they *were* to try to cancel your holiday, that is latest date they can give you notice for a two week holiday. And really, four weeks is loads of time to brief someone to take over your clients.
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    • getmore4less
    • By getmore4less 18th Mar 17, 7:59 AM
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    getmore4less
    I think you can do something like this, though.

    Obviously you can't unpick anything you have already done. Apart from that, don't mention your holiday until four weeks before your holiday period starts. If they *were* to try to cancel your holiday, that is latest date they can give you notice for a two week holiday. And really, four weeks is loads of time to brief someone to take over your clients.
    Originally posted by jobbingmusician
    For 2 weeks holiday, statutory notice to not take the holiday is 2 weeks.

    The contract can override that so could be less.
    • getmore4less
    • By getmore4less 18th Mar 17, 8:08 AM
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    getmore4less
    Never said they didn't.
    What I'm implying is that if the op was on the sick then they will still have their accrued holidays to take at another time or in their case they can be paid for them in their final salary.
    Originally posted by paddedjohn
    but the real point, you still need request/approval(if required by contract) to GO on holiday while sick.

    Although in this case the employer has no real scope to sanction the employee as they are leaving but those reading need to be aware that their contractual obligation around holidays still apply when sick.
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