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  • FIRST POST
    • GSP
    • By GSP 15th Mar 17, 7:10 PM
    • 98Posts
    • 17Thanks
    GSP
    Found IFA to Do Transfer - Does This Sound Reasonable
    • #1
    • 15th Mar 17, 7:10 PM
    Found IFA to Do Transfer - Does This Sound Reasonable 15th Mar 17 at 7:10 PM
    Hi all,
    Thanks to those who have responded to my posts recently and sorry if I have bombarded the board somewhat. I am a complete novice trying to find his way through the terminology etc. Do they do an idiot's guide!

    I have decided to go for the transfer out (£780k from the last quote) and to have £195k tax free and flexi access drawdown and from a link provided for unbiased.co.uk have spoken to one company so far.
    Not sure what the set up is but he phoned back, said he found a company that would do the transfer and has sent through forms to complete. I have not agreed anything as I want to hear from at least two other advisers.

    The quote from this first company is:
    £500 + vat for a report (Upfront before pension starts).
    £14,500 for the transfer (taken from the fund).
    0.5% thereafter for reviewing the fund.

    Does this seem reasonable?

    I did say about getting the transfer approved and that those holding my pension currently might object if its not approved, so needs to be looked into more. Seems a waste of £500 if they won't approve.
    I said were they FCA approved and he said yes and they were there on the system. Had a quick look through the 3 forms they had sent through. One bit I'm a bit sceptical under a heading of keyfacts is where they have ticked "Restricted Advice", whereas above this is a box for Independent. Is this okay.

    Again appreciate any comments or observations on anything I have written so far.
    Thank you
Page 1
    • sandsy
    • By sandsy 15th Mar 17, 7:20 PM
    • 1,104 Posts
    • 634 Thanks
    sandsy
    • #2
    • 15th Mar 17, 7:20 PM
    • #2
    • 15th Mar 17, 7:20 PM
    £15000 for a pension transfer? That's more than some people earn in a year!

    Restricted means they are not independent. They can only offer you a defined contribution pension from a restricted range of providers. There's nothing to prevent you from asking about the restriction and what providers they work with.
    • dunstonh
    • By dunstonh 15th Mar 17, 7:41 PM
    • 88,110 Posts
    • 53,340 Thanks
    dunstonh
    • #3
    • 15th Mar 17, 7:41 PM
    • #3
    • 15th Mar 17, 7:41 PM
    The quote from this first company is:
    £500 + vat for a report (Upfront before pension starts).
    £14,500 for the transfer (taken from the fund).
    0.5% thereafter for reviewing the fund.

    Does this seem reasonable?
    Not on your nelly.

    There is no need for VAT when the intention is to buy a product. So, you are being incorrectly charged VAT. Although if that was the only stage you were buying, then VAT would be chargeable. If you are asking the adviser to split the transaction then VAT would be charged.

    £14,500 is disgraceful. Firms are encouraged by the FCA to have decency caps. This firm doesnt appear to have such a thing.

    0.5% p.a. is fine. Its the only bit that is.

    One bit I'm a bit sceptical under a heading of keyfacts is where they have ticked "Restricted Advice", whereas above this is a box for Independent. Is this okay.
    No its not OK. It means they are not an IFA. Your thread title says "Found IFA to Do Transfer - Does This Sound Reasonable". You havent found an IFA. You have found a restricted adviser (or FA). The key facts document should state what their restrictions are. If you wanted an IFA (and you wouldnt want to pay £14,500 for an IFA either) then that box needs to be ticked as independent. That is what the I in IFA stands for.

    Walk away. You could also check their entry on unbiased.co.uk as restricted advisers are not allowed on there. You can email unbiased at contact@unbiased.co.uk and tell them that the firm are not independent but restricted (give them a copy of the key facts document if you have it in pdf form).
    I am an Independent Financial Adviser (IFA). Comments are for discussion purposes only. They are not financial advice. Different people have different needs and what is right for one person may not be for another. If you feel an area discussed may be relevant to you, then please seek advice from a Financial Adviser local to you.
    • xylophone
    • By xylophone 15th Mar 17, 11:27 PM
    • 21,615 Posts
    • 12,431 Thanks
    xylophone
    • #4
    • 15th Mar 17, 11:27 PM
    • #4
    • 15th Mar 17, 11:27 PM
    You do appreciate that you need advice from an Independent Financial Adviser with Pension Transfers Permission?
    • GSP
    • By GSP 15th Mar 17, 11:37 PM
    • 98 Posts
    • 17 Thanks
    GSP
    • #5
    • 15th Mar 17, 11:37 PM
    • #5
    • 15th Mar 17, 11:37 PM
    Thanks dunstonh and sandsy.
    The email from the company I spoke to is an IFA apparentely. He attached the forms and said the company who would deal with this are called "Select a Pension", if anyone has had any dealings with these. He said they have full responsibility and ownership of advice.
    Seems the biggest challenge maybe to find an IFA who will do the transfer, and reasonably. Found this one above on unbiased.co.uk and have requested contact from another two this afternoon, but waiting to hear from them.
    Is there another way or channel I might find what I'm looking for.
    Thank you

    Edit: Just saw your post while constructing mine Xylophone. Yes was surprised to see restricted so was just checking. Any suggestions where to find one, or are they only under the unbiased.co.uk
    Last edited by GSP; 15-03-2017 at 11:41 PM.
    • dunstonh
    • By dunstonh 15th Mar 17, 11:48 PM
    • 88,110 Posts
    • 53,340 Thanks
    dunstonh
    • #6
    • 15th Mar 17, 11:48 PM
    • #6
    • 15th Mar 17, 11:48 PM
    The email from the company I spoke to is an IFA apparentely. He attached the forms and said the company who would deal with this are called "Select a Pension", if anyone has had any dealings with these. He said they have full responsibility and ownership of advice.
    So, whilst you contacted an IFA, they said they cannot do it. However, they know a tied agent/restricted FA that can do it. So, the IFA is referring you to them. There will usually be some share arrangement on the fee agreed. Maybe that is why it is so high.

    keep trying as there is no need to pay anything like that and especially not for a tied rep/panel adviser.
    I am an Independent Financial Adviser (IFA). Comments are for discussion purposes only. They are not financial advice. Different people have different needs and what is right for one person may not be for another. If you feel an area discussed may be relevant to you, then please seek advice from a Financial Adviser local to you.
    • GSP
    • By GSP 15th Mar 17, 11:55 PM
    • 98 Posts
    • 17 Thanks
    GSP
    • #7
    • 15th Mar 17, 11:55 PM
    • #7
    • 15th Mar 17, 11:55 PM
    Thanks dunstonh.
    Any suggestions where best to find someone suitable who would do?
    Thank you
    • xylophone
    • By xylophone 16th Mar 17, 1:36 AM
    • 21,615 Posts
    • 12,431 Thanks
    xylophone
    • #8
    • 16th Mar 17, 1:36 AM
    • #8
    • 16th Mar 17, 1:36 AM
    See qualifications required here under Pensions Transfer Specialists

    http://www.pruadviser.co.uk/content/knowledge/technical-centre/pension_transfer_conversion/

    http://citywire.co.uk/new-model-adviser/news/fca-concerned-over-ifas-db-transfer-processes/a986828

    The FCA also warned advisers that only firms with pension transfer permissions can advise on transfers.

    ‘It is not acceptable for a firm without the permission to outsource the transfer analysis to a pension transfer specialist or to a firm with the permission, and claim to be advising on the pension transfer,’ the FCA said.



    https://www.finalsalarytransfer.com/Uploads/1435150910Tideway-Guide-to-Final-Salary-Pension-Transfers.pdf may be worth a look.

    https://www.intelligentpensions.com/pension-advice-services/pension-transfers/?gclid=CP-0x8Hw2dICFYUp0wodxQMHrw

    Or you might try https://www.unbiased.co.uk/enquiry/find-suitable-adviser specifying the qualifications required?
    Last edited by xylophone; 05-05-2017 at 3:00 PM. Reason: amend link
    • GSP
    • By GSP 16th Mar 17, 3:23 PM
    • 98 Posts
    • 17 Thanks
    GSP
    • #9
    • 16th Mar 17, 3:23 PM
    • #9
    • 16th Mar 17, 3:23 PM
    Thanks Xylophone. Will look through all this material.
    • GSP
    • By GSP 17th Mar 17, 11:31 AM
    • 98 Posts
    • 17 Thanks
    GSP
    Xylophone. Very useful links thank you.
    Was drawn to the Tideway link, the drawdown calculator in there is very good and easy to play around with.
    Forgive me as this is probably a stupid question. My administratot Towers Watson who look after my pension currently say I need to contact an IFA. Are Tideway qualified to do the whole process as I can't see a mention of them being Independent Financial Advisers?
    Thank you
    • xylophone
    • By xylophone 17th Mar 17, 11:51 AM
    • 21,615 Posts
    • 12,431 Thanks
    xylophone
    https://www.finalsalarytransfer.com/Uploads/1435150759Tideway-Why-Use-Tideways-Final-Salary-Transfer-Advice.pdf
    • GSP
    • By GSP 17th Mar 17, 8:21 PM
    • 98 Posts
    • 17 Thanks
    GSP
    Had a couple of quotes today, some fixed fee some by %.
    The report and transfer are one offs. For the ongoing possible annual reviews, 0.5% seems to be the general figure though it seems there are investment fees on top of that if anyone can provide a ball park figure for this. What is the total inclusive ongoing fee likely to be?
    Are the advisers likely to alter their fees or % later on. When the fund is up and running, can you still change adviser if you weren't comfortable.
    Thank you.
    • fjh
    • By fjh 17th Mar 17, 10:46 PM
    • 58 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    fjh
    I met IFA today been quoted £9200 to transfer 1% then set up fee for platform, 0.5% Ann mgmt fee, then fee for passive / proactive fund

    Based on this thread especially the sound advice of Dunstohnn this is high again restricted advice

    I too am struggling to find one that will do for say 0.5% transfer

    Who can help please ?
    • MightyMythop
    • By MightyMythop 17th Mar 17, 11:54 PM
    • 31 Posts
    • 17 Thanks
    MightyMythop
    fjh - Assuming that your pension transfer is a DB to DC arrangement then you'll do well to find any IFA who charges less than 1% for a transfer that said it would be possible for a lower amount if the fund is exceptionally high.

    IFA's not only have to be paid for time, advice etc but in the case of DB to DC transfer, as soon as that business is written then their PI Insurer will start looking at raising their insurance costs for the following year which can be dramatic as this is high risk business for IFA's. Afterall, there will undoubtedly be a call for a "have you transferred your pension and lost money" campaign in the near future which will inevitably lead to some clients claiming they've been mis-advised to transfer and lo and behold the large pension pot you transferred is a liability on the IFA,

    Those reputable IFA's with solid procedures have nothing to worry about but much like the bad builder or plumber, there's a bad IFA out there too.

    You need to do your research, get recommendations and shop around. Whilst your CETV is only initially available for 3 months, it may be worth spending a few hundred quid to get another after this should you still be on the lookout for a quality IFA in your locality for total peace of mind and ensuring the advice given is correct and right for you.

    Good luck!
    • CFrog
    • By CFrog 20th Mar 17, 2:17 PM
    • 40 Posts
    • 29 Thanks
    CFrog
    The quote from this first company is:
    £500 + vat for a report (Upfront before pension starts).
    £14,500 for the transfer (taken from the fund).
    0.5% thereafter for reviewing the fund.

    Does this seem reasonable?
    I am in the process of transferring a DB pension into a SIPP and have approached a number of IFAs for quotes for completing the transfer. On the face of it these figures do not look too far removed from what I've been quoted.

    The IFAs who did provide quotes broke them down into 2 parts; a fixed fee for evaluating your DB pension to produce a TVAS report and a variable fee based upon a % of the CETV. The latter would only be incurred if the pension was transferred. Fees were typically £750 - £1000 +VAT (for the TVAS) plus 1-2% of the CETV (no VAT).

    I noted Dunstonh's reference to 'decency caps'. Although it sounds reasonable, I guess the IFA's work on this (%) basis as their risk / liability is not capped.

    I have previously approached 2-3 IFAs who would work as an intermediary in the transfer process because they didn't have the necessary qualifications to effect the transfer. They would typically work with another (qualified IFA) at a company such as Intelligent Pensions who would complete all the calculations and produce the TVAS report.

    Hope this helps.
    • hyperhypo
    • By hyperhypo 20th Mar 17, 9:19 PM
    • 42 Posts
    • 5 Thanks
    hyperhypo
    i am contemplating same too...looking at fee of 1% for CETV of over £400k...personally i wouldn't pay any more than £4,200 for this.

    And would likely DIY the sum of this and my existing SIPP


    I didn't pay for TVAS ...and whilst have had figures back it in no way advocates proceeding with the transfer...it simply addresses a comparison whether CETV invested ...and a named Insurance company was given by way of example...would provide drawdown equivalent to the DB at a certain date.

    And it was via an "outsourced" organisation to my IFA who's not licensed to do this sort of work.



    i read the analysis ....queried some of assumptions and when i spoke to the person after the TVAS stage they indicated that , purely on comparison alone , they would be able to recommend proceeding.

    The report was almost certainly produced by inputting the data provided by the DB Admins into software ...there was no risk analysis , personal questionaire at this stage. My gut feel was that it was a 50/50 decision to transfer...i am agnostic about it and not desperate to get at the PcLS. I wonder how long it took to produce as the Admin report appears structured to deliver inputs into other IFA software.

    I suppose i'm writing this because i'm not sure that the TVAS analysis in itself is sufficient to direct my final decision...that it lacks in itself any personal directive ..perhaps i need a second opinion too.

    And certainly not averse to paying a fee to proceed...but for one of several thousand pounds it needs to have given me something more than i can get from time spent on cfiresim or similar.

    I've seen a figure of 1% quoted elsewhere too, with a minimum of £2k spend.

    i wonder if i could get some advice and get it done for £3k !!
    I wouldn't pay more than 5k for any amount of money...a requirement to do so would be high on a list of cons in the matter.

    It's a tricky call though.
    • hennerz
    • By hennerz 20th Mar 17, 11:55 PM
    • 171 Posts
    • 32 Thanks
    hennerz
    I didn't pay for TVAS ...and whilst have had figures back it in no way advocates proceeding with the transfer...it simply addresses a comparison whether CETV invested ...and a named Insurance company was given by way of example...would provide drawdown equivalent to the DB at a certain date.

    And it was via an "outsourced" organisation to my IFA who's not licensed to do this sort of work.



    i read the analysis ....queried some of assumptions and when i spoke to the person after the TVAS stage they indicated that , purely on comparison alone , they would be able to recommend proceeding.
    Originally posted by hyperhypo
    How did you get it for free? Did you TVAS have a critical yield figure?

    What assumptions were used? Was it invested in the markets at a certain percentage? "named Insurance company was given by way of example" can you expand?

    This part is the million dollar question right? Do you feel that your drawdown income will be higher than that of the DB income? Obviously there are some other factors with benefits and personal circumstances too.
    • hyperhypo
    • By hyperhypo 21st Mar 17, 9:00 AM
    • 42 Posts
    • 5 Thanks
    hyperhypo
    @hennerz


    On the "free" valuation this was on the basis , i suppose , that in some cases potential clients would proceed with a transfer, and that some might use in house invesments.
    However no obligation at all on either count.

    I challenge the extrapolation that might db scheme would pay c. £17k when i'm 63....at date of deferment in 2012 it as £12.3k, and i'd had several updates since (at April 2015 it was £13.3k)...so i would have guessed c. £15k at 63, not £17k as in the TVAS.

    I'm 57 presently.

    However i accepted that the projection was made from the original 2012 valuation for payout at 63 using possible a fixed RPI value.

    The CETV value was £422k.

    Current DB scheme linked to RPI capped at 10%, 50% spouse & 50% dependants pension at death.

    The critical yield was 12.6% based on no PCLS, matched against an unspecified Royal London Pension , but that i assume was based on the rather high value assumption of the DB value at aged 63

    5% growth was assumed raising fund to £513k at 63.

    Lastly the fund required to purchase an annuity to match the original TVAS ,with benefits to match DB scheme was £737.3k

    When i first read and re-read the output, apart from thinking the DB projection was high at £17k at aged 63, for my part i couldn't see overwhelming case ....it looked to me a close call.

    As i said i'm entirely agnostic over how to go forward...i don't believe the 1% charge is outrageous per se, i'm just not sure in this case , what i would be paying for, as a tacit (unwritten) nod to proceed appears to have been assumed at this stage.

    I was put on guard by the high DB projection value , and thefore values used would make the Critical yield overly high too...although i'm thinking a redo of the calc. would bring the critical yield % down from 12.6% and thus make a more compelling case.

    Finally of course i accept i'm the editor of last resort on all this.
    • RedMJ
    • By RedMJ 3rd Apr 17, 11:18 AM
    • 1 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    RedMJ
    IFA fees
    Thanks for your input dunstonh. The advice/set up charges work out at about 2% which is what I am being asked to pay on my DB transfer. It works out at £11K which seems punitive to me and would have only been half that if my DB fund was half yet the work required by the IFA would be the same (I think).

    Your comment suggests that this is way too much. What is fair and reasonable? Are there any guidelines? Many thanks.
    • poolsadie
    • By poolsadie 4th Apr 17, 6:33 PM
    • 1 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    poolsadie
    Found IFA to Do Transfer - Does This Sound Reasonable
    This is where I am very confused. I only want the TVAS (transfer advice) the actual transfer does not cost anything if you do it yourself (with my pension I get the form and fill out all the information inluding a copy of the transfer advice to repsective companies).

    So, how do I get a IFA to complete a TVAS transfer advice only?
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