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  • FIRST POST
    • ed11e
    • By ed11e 15th Mar 17, 10:04 AM
    • 11Posts
    • 10Thanks
    ed11e
    Ticket when parked in a marked bay
    • #1
    • 15th Mar 17, 10:04 AM
    Ticket when parked in a marked bay 15th Mar 17 at 10:04 AM
    Hi All,

    Yesterday I was given a ticket in a private car park by UKPC on the grounds that I was not parked in a marked bay, when in fact I was. The car park is a permit holders only one and I have a valid permit and was clearly displaying it at the time.

    The area I was parked in had no signs or any indication that you couldn't park there and another car was also parked next to me (they also got a ticket).

    Another thing to note is that the lines on all the spaces in the car park are faded which does make it unclear where you can and can't park and that there is a small sign at the entrance to the car park which was posted by the landowner which says authorised users only (I am an authorised user), but no UKPC sign.

    I've never gone through the appeals process before and any advice on it would be most welcome. I'm not really sure on the best way of structuring the appeal. I have photos, but can't upload them here but am happy to share with anyone if they would like to see them.

    Its worth noting that the sign in the background in the picture of my vehicle doesn't relates to the car park and relates to the road behind it.

    Thanks again for any advice! I will add more photos later today.
Page 1
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 15th Mar 17, 10:14 AM
    • 38,061 Posts
    • 76,116 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    • #2
    • 15th Mar 17, 10:14 AM
    • #2
    • 15th Mar 17, 10:14 AM
    Start by complaining to the landowner. In parallel, please read the Sticky thread for NEWBIES then send the BPA template in blue you will find there to the PPC.
    If yours was a windscreen ticket, then wait until day 25/26 before submitting the appeal.
    Then start reading up about PoPLA, the second stage appeal where you will beat the scammers who have been known to doctor time stamps on their photo' "evidence."

    It sounds like you have many points of appeal for PoPLA.

    You can upload (redacted) images from a web hosting site (not in your own name) and post the URL here but change http to hxxp. Someone here will change it to a live link.
    Last edited by Fruitcake; 15-03-2017 at 10:16 AM.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • ed11e
    • By ed11e 15th Mar 17, 10:22 AM
    • 11 Posts
    • 10 Thanks
    ed11e
    • #3
    • 15th Mar 17, 10:22 AM
    • #3
    • 15th Mar 17, 10:22 AM
    Thanks Fruitcake!

    I'll send the landowner an email today (they are also my employer!)

    Here's a link to the images. I will add more later today when I have a chance to get out and take some more.

    It needs https:// adding to make it work!

    dropbox.com/sh/cf7h0813fdkguyt/AACOJflAFWHOoilahdaTpQVPa?dl=0
    • Hasbeen
    • By Hasbeen 15th Mar 17, 10:42 AM
    • 806 Posts
    • 580 Thanks
    Hasbeen
    • #4
    • 15th Mar 17, 10:42 AM
    • #4
    • 15th Mar 17, 10:42 AM
    Thanks Fruitcake!

    I'll send the landowner an email today (they are also my employer!)

    Here's a link to the images. I will add more later today when I have a chance to get out and take some more.

    It needs https:// adding to make it work!

    dropbox.com/sh/cf7h0813fdkguyt/AACOJflAFWHOoilahdaTpQVPa?dl=0
    Originally posted by ed11e

    https://www.dropbox.com/sh/cf7h0813fdkguyt/AACOJflAFWHOoilahdaTpQVPa?dl=0#
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 15th Mar 17, 11:05 AM
    • 38,061 Posts
    • 76,116 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    • #5
    • 15th Mar 17, 11:05 AM
    • #5
    • 15th Mar 17, 11:05 AM
    I can't see any markings at all, but that is irrelevant. You will win on all the usual appeal points, and primacy of contract (landowner gave you permission to park.)
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • ed11e
    • By ed11e 15th Mar 17, 1:53 PM
    • 11 Posts
    • 10 Thanks
    ed11e
    • #6
    • 15th Mar 17, 1:53 PM
    • #6
    • 15th Mar 17, 1:53 PM
    I've added some more photos to the previous link, showing the entrance, the sign at the entrance and a sign in the car park.

    It turns out there is a sign by the entrance, I've just never noticed it (funny how you can miss things you drive past everyday!)

    Looking at the ticket that the alleged offence was "Not parked correctly within the markings of the bay or space"

    I would argue that I haven't committed this offence as there aren't any markings where I was parked nor any in the rest of the car park! Would this be additional grounds for an appeal?

    I've also noticed that the fee will be reduced to £60 to £100 if paid within 14 days. Does this not breached the BPA code of practise?
    Last edited by ed11e; 15-03-2017 at 2:01 PM. Reason: Forgot to mention something
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 15th Mar 17, 10:55 PM
    • 43,987 Posts
    • 56,735 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #7
    • 15th Mar 17, 10:55 PM
    • #7
    • 15th Mar 17, 10:55 PM
    Looking at the ticket that the alleged offence was "Not parked correctly within the markings of the bay or space"

    I would argue that I haven't committed this offence as there aren't any markings where I was parked nor any in the rest of the car park! Would this be additional grounds for an appeal?
    Originally posted by ed11e
    No because that's an example of why I wrote the template appeal! Your version shoots three toes off, and loses at POPLA (possibly) by saying who parked!

    I've also noticed that the fee will be reduced to £60 to £100 if paid within 14 days. Does this not breached the BPA code of practise?
    It's neither a 'fee', not a fine. And no, the opposite is true; they have to offer a 40% bribe under the CoP.

    Wait till day 26, don't reinvent the wheel. Use the template on day 26 online (the NEWBIES thread explains that deliberate timing and why it helps a keeper appellant to win at POPLA).
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 16-03-2017 at 8:24 PM.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the breadcrumb trail, top of page: Household & Travel > Motoring > Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking & READ THE 'NEWBIES' FAQS THREAD.
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • ed11e
    • By ed11e 16th Mar 17, 9:02 AM
    • 11 Posts
    • 10 Thanks
    ed11e
    • #8
    • 16th Mar 17, 9:02 AM
    • #8
    • 16th Mar 17, 9:02 AM
    Thanks for that Cuponmad. I'd read somewhere that it was the case, but thanks for clearing that up!

    I'll start drafting my letter today, but won't send it in until day 26. I've also complained to the landowner and surprise, surprise they haven't replied to me so not holding out much hope on that avenue!
    • Loadsofchildren123
    • By Loadsofchildren123 16th Mar 17, 10:31 AM
    • 343 Posts
    • 484 Thanks
    Loadsofchildren123
    • #9
    • 16th Mar 17, 10:31 AM
    • #9
    • 16th Mar 17, 10:31 AM
    The PPC is acting as agent of the landowner, so really push this with your employer. Go to HR (if there is such a department).


    Do your photos clearly show no markings anywhere in the carpark? If not, go back and take more to show this.


    The trouble in pushing your employer to get it cancelled is that this identifies you as the driver, and if your employer asks them to cancel the ticket because you had a right to park there, then you've identified yourself as the driver.


    I'm uncomfortable with denying being the driver (or at least not admitting it) in cases where it is glaringly obvious you were (you had permit, you work there), and where you have a clear defence (landowner authority to park/primacy of your agreement with landowner over its agreement with the PPC/no markings).


    My focus is, however, on court proceedings rather than POPLA appeals and it may be just a case of not admitting this until you've got through the POPLA process. If you were defending court proceedings I would be advising you to defend on your landowner consent point and the lack of markings (and whatever other valid defences there are), and to admit that you were the driver. The point is that it makes you look evasive if you say you weren't driving when it's obvious you were.


    Coupon Mad will tell me if I'm right or wrong about not admitting at this stage!!!!
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 16th Mar 17, 8:28 PM
    • 43,987 Posts
    • 56,735 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    I'll start drafting my letter today, but won't send it in until day 26. I've also complained to the landowner and surprise, surprise they haven't replied to me so not holding out much hope on that avenue!
    Originally posted by ed11e
    There is no 'letter' and nothing to draft at all. It's already written in the NEWBIES thread. It is a copy & paste exercise using the template online to UKPC, no drafting a letter - certainly NO posting it snail mail.

    it may be just a case of not admitting this until you've got through the POPLA process
    Exactly - it is VITAL at this appeal stage NOT to admit who was driving, that's the whole point of appealing as keeper on day 26. Loadsofchildren123, when people do as advised, 99 times out of 100 UKPC forget to serve any Notice to Keeper (at all!). And as you can imagine, at POPLA stage this makes it a slam dunk win for an appellant keeper if they wait till day 56...

    No NTK = no keeper liability, no charge, no court. Because POPLA will uphold an appeal. It is a deliberate tactic to win.
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 16-03-2017 at 8:30 PM.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the breadcrumb trail, top of page: Household & Travel > Motoring > Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking & READ THE 'NEWBIES' FAQS THREAD.
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • ed11e
    • By ed11e 17th Mar 17, 9:10 AM
    • 11 Posts
    • 10 Thanks
    ed11e
    There is no 'letter' and nothing to draft at all. It's already written in the NEWBIES thread. It is a copy & paste exercise using the template online to UKPC, no drafting a letter - certainly NO posting it snail mail.
    Originally posted by Coupon-mad
    I use the term 'letter' loosely, I will copy and paste it in. Just going to write it in word first

    I've started adjusting the template from the newbies thread for my case. Also had a look at the UKPC appeals site. Sneaky tactic they seem to use is the first box on the site which is very small says 'are you appealing as the driver or keeper?' is set to driver by default! Written a massive post it and stuck it on my monitor to remind me to make sure that's set correctly when it comes to submitting it!

    One question though? If it went to POPLA, can you appeal on more than one ground (e.g. you had the right to be there, inadequate signage, etc...)?
    Last edited by ed11e; 17-03-2017 at 9:16 AM.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 17th Mar 17, 10:41 AM
    • 43,987 Posts
    • 56,735 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    is set to driver by default!
    Yes and we've said before, if you try to put in a long appeal and it chucks it out as too long, any adjustment to the boxes like that, causes the default to reset to 'driver' again...watch out before submitting it!
    One question though? If it went to POPLA, can you appeal on more than one ground (e.g. you had the right to be there, inadequate signage, etc...)?
    Yes of course, I encourage ten page long POPLA appeals and you will find examples if you search this forum for 'UKPC POPLA no keeper liability NTK'
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the breadcrumb trail, top of page: Household & Travel > Motoring > Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking & READ THE 'NEWBIES' FAQS THREAD.
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • ed11e
    • By ed11e 20th Mar 17, 1:00 PM
    • 11 Posts
    • 10 Thanks
    ed11e
    Just a quick update on this;

    Having complained to the landowner (my employer) the ticket has been canceled! They looked at the pictures and agreed no offence had been committed. Apparently, we're also taking control of our car park away from UKPC and back in house. (There wasn't really any need for enforcement as you can't open the barrier without a pass!).

    Thanks to everyone here who offered advice. Hopefully this thread serves useful to anyone in a similar situation!
    • Loadsofchildren123
    • By Loadsofchildren123 20th Mar 17, 2:35 PM
    • 343 Posts
    • 484 Thanks
    Loadsofchildren123
    well done!
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 20th Mar 17, 8:55 PM
    • 43,987 Posts
    • 56,735 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Just a quick update on this;

    Having complained to the landowner (my employer) the ticket has been canceled! They looked at the pictures and agreed no offence had been committed. Apparently, we're also taking control of our car park away from UKPC and back in house. (There wasn't really any need for enforcement as you can't open the barrier without a pass!).

    Thanks to everyone here who offered advice. Hopefully this thread serves useful to anyone in a similar situation!
    Originally posted by ed11e
    The best news! UKPC LOSE A CONTRACT!
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the breadcrumb trail, top of page: Household & Travel > Motoring > Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking & READ THE 'NEWBIES' FAQS THREAD.
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • ed11e
    • By ed11e 21st Mar 17, 9:08 AM
    • 11 Posts
    • 10 Thanks
    ed11e
    The best news! UKPC LOSE A CONTRACT!
    Originally posted by Coupon-mad
    That was my thinking as well. Apparently it was too many complaints to the landowner about unfair tickets (surprise, surprise!).
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