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  • FIRST POST
    • STARS
    • By STARS 14th Mar 17, 11:22 AM
    • 10Posts
    • 2Thanks
    STARS
    Parking Eye ticket at Hartshead Moor service station
    • #1
    • 14th Mar 17, 11:22 AM
    Parking Eye ticket at Hartshead Moor service station 14th Mar 17 at 11:22 AM
    Hello

    I have spent a couple of days reading around the various notices on this and other parking forums before sending the following appeal to Parking Eye.

    Registered keeper received a PCN re BPA yesterday and was just going to pay the £60.00 I am glad to have seen these threads.
    They have only sent the registered keeper a communication by post headed Parking Charge Notice.

    This was at the Hartshead Moor Welcome Break East the PCN finishes saying as we don't know the drivers name or current postal address if you were not the driver at the time you should tell us the name and current postal address of the driver and pass this notice on to them.

    Driver/ registered keeper has a new job travelling the country and been driving for some time from Sunderland to Ellesmere Port CH65 7BF and was driving back when they realised they were exceptionally tired and having been up since 6.15am realised they required a break and felt unwell, and therefore didn’t even see any signs and drove in to the car park the wrong way and was flustered at this.

    They went to the ladies, had something to eat and a coffee (subway) and felt even more unwell. They used the internet to connect to a smart room meeting didn’t think it appropriate to drive back home feeling unwell and hadn’t realised there was a two-hour limit and left.

    Is the registered keeper able to appeal with the letter below do you think? Any assistance and support would be most welcomed!

    Dear Sirs

    Re: PCN No. ....................

    I challenge this 'PCN' as keeper of the car.

    I believe that your signs fail the test of 'large lettering' and prominence, as established in Parking Eye Ltd v Beavis. Your unremarkable and obscure signs were not seen by the driver, are in very small print and the terms are not readable to drivers.
    Public concern has been raised whereby should drivers inadvertently park for more than 2 hours without prior payment they may become liable to penalty charges that are disproportionate, excessive and wholly unreasonable.

    There will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn. You must either rely on the POFA 2012 and offer me a POPLA code, or cancel the charge.

    Should you obtain the registered keeper's data from the DVLA without reasonable cause, please take this as formal notice that I reserve the right to sue your company and the landowner/principal, for a sum not less than £250 for any Data Protection Act breach. Your aggressive business practice and unwarranted threat of court for the ordinary matter of a driver using my car without causing any obstruction nor offence, has caused significant distress to me.

    I do not give you consent to process data relating to me or this vehicle. I deny liability for any sum at all and you must consider this letter a Section 10 Notice under the DPA. You are required to respond within 21 days. I have kept proof of submission of this appeal and look forward to your reply.

    Yours faithfully,


    THE NAME AND ADDRESS OF THE KEEPER GOES HERE. THE DRIVER IS NOT IDENTIFIED.

    NO NEED TO USE YOUR REAL SIGNATURE - BUT DON'T POST UNLESS YOU HAVE TO - ALWAYS USE THEONLINE APPEAL PAGE BECAUSE THE APPEAL CANNOT GET LOST AND YOU CAN KEEP A SCREEN PRINT.USE ANY EMAIL APPEAL OPTION IF FIRMS OFFER IT.



    Many thanks in advance

    Helen
    Last edited by STARS; 15-03-2017 at 10:50 AM. Reason: Fruitcake and Redx's suggestion - thank you
Page 1
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 14th Mar 17, 12:15 PM
    • 38,962 Posts
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    Fruitcake
    • #2
    • 14th Mar 17, 12:15 PM
    • #2
    • 14th Mar 17, 12:15 PM
    You need to immediately remove the information you have posted about who did what. Parking scammers read these fora and you have given enough information for them to determine the identity of the driver.

    You should only ever refer to The Driver and The Keeper who are two separate people as far as anyone is concerned.

    If that is the BPA template in blue from the NEWBIES thread, then yes that is what you should use to appeal. This assumes you live in England or Wales.

    What happened when you complained to the MSA manager?
    Last edited by Fruitcake; 14-03-2017 at 12:19 PM.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • STARS
    • By STARS 14th Mar 17, 4:05 PM
    • 10 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    STARS
    • #3
    • 14th Mar 17, 4:05 PM
    • #3
    • 14th Mar 17, 4:05 PM
    Thank you Fruitcake I've edited my thread!

    I will use the template as suggested and I haven't complained to the MSA manager as previous posts/threads have stated its not worth it as they are unlikely to do anything?
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 14th Mar 17, 5:25 PM
    • 38,962 Posts
    • 77,736 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    • #4
    • 14th Mar 17, 5:25 PM
    • #4
    • 14th Mar 17, 5:25 PM
    Thank you Fruitcake I've edited my thread!

    I will use the template as suggested and I haven't complained to the MSA manager as previous posts/threads have stated its not worth it as they are unlikely to do anything?
    Originally posted by STARS
    Er, not very well. It is still obvious who was driving. (The person who didn't see the signs and drove in.)

    It is always worth asking/complaining to the landowner/manager. In your case a firm but polite request might work. The Driver of the car for which you are The Keeper was taken ill at a service station, and that is exactly what MSAs are for. Having a rest when someone is tired or unfit to drive due to illness.
    Last edited by Fruitcake; 14-03-2017 at 5:30 PM.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • Redx
    • By Redx 14th Mar 17, 6:23 PM
    • 14,022 Posts
    • 17,313 Thanks
    Redx
    • #5
    • 14th Mar 17, 6:23 PM
    • #5
    • 14th Mar 17, 6:23 PM
    post #1 still needs editing to remove the identifiers as to who did what

    do not use the words "ME , MYSELF and I" , Put THE DRIVER

    so WHO had a new job ?

    who drives all over the country ?

    who went to the loo ?
    Last edited by Redx; 25-03-2017 at 4:52 PM.
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • STARS
    • By STARS 15th Mar 17, 10:52 AM
    • 10 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    STARS
    • #6
    • 15th Mar 17, 10:52 AM
    • #6
    • 15th Mar 17, 10:52 AM
    I will email the Hartshead Moor manager now - thank you!
    • STARS
    • By STARS 25th Mar 17, 4:44 PM
    • 10 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    STARS
    • #7
    • 25th Mar 17, 4:44 PM
    My appeal was rejected
    • #7
    • 25th Mar 17, 4:44 PM
    Hello - Update - My appeal was rejected and now I have received an email with attached e-letter.

    Reference:ParkingChargeNotice- POPLARef:given details
    DearSir/Madam,
    ThankyouforyourcorrespondenceinrelationtotheParkin gChargeincurredon.......................
    Wearewritingtoadviseyouthatyourrecentappealhasbeen unsuccessfulandthatyou havenowreachedtheendofourinternalappealsprocedure. Ourrecordsconfirmthatno parkingwaspurchasedonthedateoftheparkingevent,desp itetherebeingpayment methodsavailableonthedayinquestion.Pleasebeadvised :
     Thereisanindependentappealsservice(POPLA)whichisav ailabletomotorists whohavehadanappealrejectedbyaBritishParkingAssocia tionApproved Operator.Contactinformationandfurtherinformationca nbefoundenclosed. popla website
     Asagestureofgoodwill,wehaveextendedthediscountperi odforafurther14 daysfromthedateofthiscorrespondence.IfyouappealtoP OPLAandyour appealisunsuccessfulyouwillnotbeabletopaythediscou ntedamountin settlementoftheParkingCharge,youwillbeliabletopayt hefullamount.Ifyou havealreadypaidthereducedamount,theParkingChargewi llbeincreasedto thefullamountandyouwillbeliabletopaythisincrease.
     By law we are also required to inform you that Ombudsman Services ombudsman services website provides an alternative dispute resolution servicethatwouldbecompetenttodealwithyourappeal.Ho wever,wehavenot chosentoparticipateintheiralternativedisputeresolu tionservice.Assuch shouldyouwishtoappealthenyoumustdosotoPOPLA,asexpl ainedabove.
    Apaymentcanbemadebytelephoningourofficeson03305554 444orbyvisiting parkingeye website orbypostingachequeorpostalordertoParkingEye,POBox 565,Chorley,PR66HT.
    Yoursfaithfully,
    ParkingEyeTeam

    Please help and advise what next action I should take please - your support is required and most appreciated too! - Thanks in advance!

    Should I just pay £60.00?
    • Redx
    • By Redx 25th Mar 17, 4:53 PM
    • 14,022 Posts
    • 17,313 Thanks
    Redx
    • #8
    • 25th Mar 17, 4:53 PM
    • #8
    • 25th Mar 17, 4:53 PM
    your choice

    if you still wish to appeal then they should have provided a popla code, valid for 28 days , in which case revisit the NEWBIES sticky thread and read and follow post #3 (you should already have known this , hence my stock in trade reply)

    plus a direct landholder cancellation (agreed through PE) is still your best get out
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • STARS
    • By STARS 25th Mar 17, 4:57 PM
    • 10 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    STARS
    • #9
    • 25th Mar 17, 4:57 PM
    • #9
    • 25th Mar 17, 4:57 PM
    Thanks so much for the quick response Redx will check it out now.
    • Elysander
    • By Elysander 25th Mar 17, 5:08 PM
    • 53 Posts
    • 113 Thanks
    Elysander
    This was at the Hartshead Moor Welcome Break East the PCN finishes saying as we don't know the drivers name or current postal address if you were not the driver at the time you should tell us the name and current postal address of the driver and pass this notice on to them.

    This wording sounds like it could be the non POFA version of Parking Eye's pcn when they miss the deadline for holding a keeper liable. Can you confirm that the pcn doesn't include a reference to Protection of Freedoms Act 2012?
    • STARS
    • By STARS 25th Mar 17, 5:39 PM
    • 10 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    STARS
    Hi Elysander, thank you for your post, "I am notified under paragraph 9(2)(9b) of schedule 4 of protection of freedoms act 2012 that the driver of the motor vehicle is required to pay this parking charge in full". so yes its included. looking at Newbies #3 emplate and adding No evidence of Landowner Authority - the operator is put to strict proof of full compliance with the BPA Code of Practice too?
    • STARS
    • By STARS 25th Mar 17, 5:40 PM
    • 10 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    STARS
    searched threads for Hartshead Moor service station POPLA's too nothing yet
    • STARS
    • By STARS 25th Mar 17, 5:42 PM
    • 10 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    STARS
    emailed
    hartshead.enquiry@welcomebreak.co.uk 10 days ago re complaint no reponse so emailed again today too
    • Redx
    • By Redx 25th Mar 17, 6:21 PM
    • 14,022 Posts
    • 17,313 Thanks
    Redx
    you are unlikely to find a popla appeal for a specific service station

    try a search for MSA popla appeals and/or other threads about MSA`s , because some feature a lot more than others , but the one thing in comon is , they are all MSA`s
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • STARS
    • By STARS 25th Mar 17, 6:57 PM
    • 10 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    STARS
    Hi I searched also for MSE and service stations etc thank you Redx i have submitted my appeal and await a response.
    • Redx
    • By Redx 25th Mar 17, 8:06 PM
    • 14,022 Posts
    • 17,313 Thanks
    Redx
    its MSA (Motorway Service Area) , not MSE

    there should be plenty of threads about them as they come up on here weekly
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 25th Mar 17, 11:01 PM
    • 45,931 Posts
    • 58,949 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Hi Elysander, thank you for your post, "I am notified under paragraph 9(2)(9b) of schedule 4 of protection of freedoms act 2012 that the driver of the motor vehicle is required to pay this parking charge in full". so yes its included.
    Originally posted by STARS
    That's not the bit Elysander meant.

    Is your PCN like the one shown in post #3 of the NEWBIES thread, the 'blank space' at the bottom, version shown in a link?
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • STARS
    • By STARS 5th May 17, 6:27 PM
    • 10 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    STARS
    UPDATE - DENIED - #fedupsopaidfine
    UPDATE - DENIED - #fedupsopaidfine



    Decision Unsuccessful
    Assessor Name
    Assessor summary of operator case
    The operator’s case is that the appellant parked on site for longer than the permitted time allowed without purchasing parking time thereafter.

    Assessor summary of your case
    The appellant raises several grounds for appeal as follows: • The signage is not prominent or clear from all parking spaces and there is insufficient notice of the sum of the parking charge itself: • The signage is not compliant with the British Parking Association (BPA) Code of Practice: • The charge is disproportionate, excessive and unreasonable: • There is no contract or agreement on the Parking Charge Notice (PCN): • The operator does not have landowner authority: • This charge in an unlawful penalty charge.

    Assessor supporting rational for decision
    As the appellant has not declared she was the driver of the vehicle and that the PCN does not show a contract or agreement. I must consider whether the The Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (PoFA2012) has been complied with. After reviewing the evidence provided by both parties, I am not satisfied that, the appellant has been identified as the driver of the vehicle in question at the time of the relevant parking event. The operator is therefore pursuing the appellant as the registered keeper of the vehicle in this instance. In PoFA 2012 it states under section 9 4(b) that the notice must be given by sending it by post, to a current address for service for the keeper, so that it is delivered to that address within the relevant period. Under section 9 (5) it states the relevant period for the purpose of sub-paragraph (4) is the period of 14 days beginning with the day after that on which the specified period of parking ended. The operator has provided evidence of a copy of the original PCN, issued on 8 March 2017, and states that the contravention has occurred on 2 March 2017. After reviewing the notice to keeper against the relevant sections of PoFA 2012 I am satisfied that it is compliant with the requirements in order to transfer liability. As such, the keeper is now liable for the charge. The appellant states this is an unlawful penalty charge. In reference to the appellant noting the charge as a penalty charge. The operator does not issue or collect “Penalty Charges”, “fines” or “Excess Charges”. Such things are only relevant to the on street or civil enforcement area and enforced by police/traffic wardens or council civil enforcement officers under the Traffic Management Act 2004 or the Road Traffic Acts. This legislation is not applicable to private land. The appellant sates that the operator does not have the authority to operate on this land. Section 7.1 of the British Parking Association (BPA) Code of Practice outlines to operators, “If you do not own the land on which you are carrying out parking management, you must have the written authorisation of the landowner (or their appointed agent). The written confirmation must be given before you can start operating on the land in question and give you the authority to carry out all the aspects of car park management for the site that you are responsible for. In particular, it must say that the landowner (or their appointed agent) requires you to keep to the Code of Practice and that you have the authority to pursue outstanding parking charges”. The operator has provided evidence by way of a witness statement, of the contract it holds with the landowner, confirming it had the authority to issue a PCN on the day in question. I am satisfied therefore, that the operator had sufficient authority on the date of the contravention. When it comes to parking on private land, a motorist accepts the terms and conditions of the site by parking their vehicle. The terms and conditions are stipulated on the signs displayed within the car park. The operator has provided both PDF document versions and photographic evidence of the signage displayed on site. The operator has supplied a site map showing the location of the 40 signs throughout the site and as such I am satisfied that appellant had the opportunity to read and understand the terms and conditions before agreeing to the contract. This site is monitored by Automatic Number Plate Recognition cameras and shows the appellant’s vehicle entering the site at 13:03 and exiting at 16:14 after a stay of three hours and 10 minutes. The terms and conditions clearly state, “Tariffs include the first 2 hours free parking. Please pay for parking at: WH Smith or Petrol Forecourts. Failure to comply with the terms and conditions will result in a Parking Charge of £100”. I note the appellant states that not all signs are visible from every parking space. The driver of the vehicle does not need to have read the terms and conditions of the contract to accept it. There is only the requirement that the driver is afforded the opportunity to read and understand the terms and conditions of the contract before accepting it. I am satisfied from the amount of signage on site, that the appellant did have the opportunity to read the terms and conditions before agreeing to park. The appellant states that the signage does not comply with the BPA Code of Practice and that it is disproportionate, excessive and unreasonable. The legality of parking charges has been the subject of a high profile court case, ParkingEye-v-Beavis. Cambridge County Court heard the case initially, handing down a decision in May 2014 that a parking charge of £85 was allowable. It held that the parking charge had the characteristics of a penalty, in the sense in which that expression is conventionally used, but one that was commercially justifiable because it was neither improper in its purpose nor manifestly excessive in its amount. Mr Beavis took the case to the Court of Appeal, which refused the appeal in April 2015, stating that the charge was neither extravagant nor unconscionable. Mr Beavis further appealed to the Supreme Court, which on 4 November 2015, concluded: “…the £85 charge is not a penalty. Both ParkingEye and the landowners had a legitimate interest in charging overstaying motorists, which extended beyond the recovery of any loss. The interest of the landowners was the provision and efficient management of customer parking for the retail outlets. The interest of ParkingEye was in income from the charge, which met the running costs of a legitimate scheme plus a profit margin. Further, the charge was neither extravagant nor unconscionable, having regard to practice around the United Kingdom, and taking into account the use of this particular car park and the clear wording of the notices.” As such, I must consider whether the signage at this site is sufficient. When doing so, I must first consider the minimum standards set out in Section 18 of the British Parking Association (BPA) Code of Practice. Within Section 18.1 of the BPA Code of Practice, it states as follows: “You must use signs to make it easy for them to find out what your terms and conditions are.” Furthermore, Section 18.3 of the BPA Code of Practice states: “You must place signs containing the specific parking terms throughout the site, so that drivers are given the chance to read them at the time of parking or leaving their vehicle. Keep a record of where all the signs are. Signs must be conspicuous and legible, and written in intelligible language, so that they are easy to see, read and understand.” As stated, these are the minimum standards that a parking operator must meet when informing motorists of the terms and conditions at a particular site. In addition to this, I note that within the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (PoFA2012) it discusses the clarity that needs to be provided to make a motorist aware of the parking charge. Specifically, it requires that the driver is given “adequate notice” of the charge. The Act then moved on to define “adequate notice” as follows: (3) For the purposes of sub-paragraph (2) “adequate notice” means notice given by: (a) the display of one or more notices in accordance with any applicable requirements prescribed in regulations under paragraph 12 for, or for purposes including, the purposes of sub-paragraph (2); or (b) where no such requirements apply, the display of one or more notices which: (i) specify the sum as the charge for unauthorised parking; and (ii) are adequate to bring the charge to the notice of drivers who park vehicles on the relevant land. Even in circumstances where PoFA 2012 does not apply, I believe this to be a reasonable standard to use when making my own independent assessment of the signage in place at the location. Having considered the signage in place at this particular site against the requirements of Section 18 of the BPA Code of Practice and PoFA 2012, I am of the view that the signage at the site is sufficient to bring the parking charge to the attention of the motorist. Therefore, having considered the decision of the Supreme Court decision, I conclude that the parking charge in this instance is allowable. Although the charge may not be a genuine pre-estimate of loss; the signage at the location is clear, the motorist did not keep to the terms and conditions set out on the signage, and the charge is neither extravagant nor unconscionable. While the charge in this instance was £100; this is in the region of the £85 charge decided on by the Supreme Court. Ultimately, it is the motorist’s responsibility to read the signs and act in accordance with the terms and conditions applicable to the site. By remaining on site, the appellant has agreed to comply with the terms or risk the incurrence of a PCN. While I appreciate the appellant’s comments, when looking at appeals, POPLA considers whether a parking contract was formed and, if so, whether the motorist kept to the conditions of the contract. As the appellant remained on site for longer than the free time allowed, and did not purchase the required parking time thereafter, she has not complied with the terms of the site. Therefore, from the evidence provided, I can only conclude that the PCN was issued correctly. Accordingly, I must refuse this appeal.
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 22nd May 17, 8:22 AM
    • 12,722 Posts
    • 19,590 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    PE will now demand payment to them. They will very likely sue if they don't receive it.

    This could so easily have been won if you'd answered some of the questions posed to you earlier (especially that raised by CM in post #17 on 25/03/17). You've appealed on GPEOL - dead in the water since Beavis in Nov 2015.

    If only you'd shown us your draft, then as a minimum we'd have crafted it into a potential POPLA winner, or so heavily populated it with words that PE would follow their normal pattern and discontinue before POPLA.

    Unless you're prepared to do much more work than (apparently) previously and defend this in court, it saddens me to say that paying up might be the least painful route for you now.
    NEWBIES - wise up - DO NOT IGNORE A PARKING CHARGE NOTICE - you have been warned!

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.

    Please note: I am NOT involved in any 'paid for' appeals service.
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