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  • FIRST POST
    • perseat
    • By perseat 13th Mar 17, 5:35 PM
    • 26Posts
    • 19Thanks
    perseat
    Care Parking - Metrolink
    • #1
    • 13th Mar 17, 5:35 PM
    Care Parking - Metrolink 13th Mar 17 at 5:35 PM
    Hi guys, I've already read the newbies thread but it was too late.
    About a month back I received a PCN for not parking in a valid space at a park and ride at a metrolink stop in Manchester.

    It wasn't until after I sent my appeal I came here and realised care parking aren't a BPA member.

    I recently got my appeal marked as rejected and they intend to proceed with the supposed monies owed. However I wasn't even aware of the signage at this stop because it's so small and not well lit at all considering I parked when dark.

    I did relieve a popla number but have not yet received any form of post from them (yeah I was a berk and gave them my address and driver too).

    This situation isn't exactly clear in the newbies thread for me, what steps should I take next?
Page 1
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 13th Mar 17, 5:38 PM
    • 50,101 Posts
    • 63,484 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #2
    • 13th Mar 17, 5:38 PM
    • #2
    • 13th Mar 17, 5:38 PM
    Yes they are BPA members, that's why you have a POPLA code!

    http://www.careparking.co.uk/

    You are at POPLA stage so you need to read post #3 of the NEWBIES thread and get a decent appeal into POPLA within 30 days of the rejection letter. The templates are there in the sticky thread. Show us what you put together, using them.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • perseat
    • By perseat 13th Mar 17, 5:44 PM
    • 26 Posts
    • 19 Thanks
    perseat
    • #3
    • 13th Mar 17, 5:44 PM
    • #3
    • 13th Mar 17, 5:44 PM
    Christ, I went to the official list.
    Didn't realise the weren't listed as "Care Parking" but instead as "Anchor Security Services Ltd t/as Care Parking".

    Because of my first stage appeal, what's the best way to go about the popla appeal?
    Same as if I didn't say I was the driver?
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 13th Mar 17, 5:46 PM
    • 40,304 Posts
    • 80,504 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    • #4
    • 13th Mar 17, 5:46 PM
    • #4
    • 13th Mar 17, 5:46 PM
    Christ, I went to the official list.
    Didn't realise the weren't listed as "Care Parking" but instead as "Anchor Security Services Ltd t/as Care Parking".

    Because of my first stage appeal, what's the best way to go about the popla appeal?
    Same as if I didn't say I was the driver?
    Originally posted by perseat
    Appeal as per the advice from Coupon-mad using the template appeal points. Unfortunately you won't be able to use anything about non-POFA complaint or keeper not liable since you outed yourself as driver. Otherwise use all the available points you can find and post your draft here before you submit it.

    Having your own pics of the site and signs would be useful.

    It would be worth finding out if the car park is covered by byelaws as that gives you an additional appeal point and means neither the driver nor keeper are liable, only the owner, which you will never divulge.
    Last edited by Fruitcake; 13-03-2017 at 5:49 PM.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • perseat
    • By perseat 13th Mar 17, 5:52 PM
    • 26 Posts
    • 19 Thanks
    perseat
    • #5
    • 13th Mar 17, 5:52 PM
    • #5
    • 13th Mar 17, 5:52 PM
    Appeal as per the advice from Coupon-mad using the template appeal points. Unfortunately you won't be able to use anything about non-POFA complaint or keeper not liable since you outed yourself as driver. Otherwise use all the available points you can find and post your draft here before you submit it.

    Having your own pics of the site and signs would be useful.

    It would be worth finding out if the car park is covered by byelaws as that gives you an additional appeal point and means neither the driver nor keeper are liable, only the owner, which you will never divulge.
    Originally posted by Fruitcake
    How would I find out if the byelaws did apply to me?
    • Redx
    • By Redx 13th Mar 17, 5:55 PM
    • 15,516 Posts
    • 19,601 Thanks
    Redx
    • #6
    • 13th Mar 17, 5:55 PM
    • #6
    • 13th Mar 17, 5:55 PM
    byelaws apply if Metrolink decide to issue a court case within 6 months

    Care Parking are trying to use no byelaws and deal with it differently , because they issued a POPLA code

    so you need to draft and submit a popla appeal within 28 days

    and hope METROLINK dont issue anything under the byelaws (which they wont as they never do)

    shame you outed the driver, as its a simple win at popla when a driver isnt known
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 13th Mar 17, 6:14 PM
    • 50,101 Posts
    • 63,484 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #7
    • 13th Mar 17, 6:14 PM
    • #7
    • 13th Mar 17, 6:14 PM
    It would be worth finding out if the car park is covered by byelaws as that gives you an additional appeal point and means neither the driver nor keeper are liable, only the owner, which you will never divulge.
    That's true, Railway byelaws can potentially hold an owner liable only. So this case is like other Indigo or NCP ones, the OP should search the forum for 'Indigo owner POPLA byelaws' to find a suitable POPLA appeal to adapt, if it seems likely from Google research (by you, perseat) that Railway byelaws apply here.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • perseat
    • By perseat 13th Mar 17, 8:46 PM
    • 26 Posts
    • 19 Thanks
    perseat
    • #8
    • 13th Mar 17, 8:46 PM
    • #8
    • 13th Mar 17, 8:46 PM
    Here is my current draft of the Popla doc
    dropbox . com/s/57bnpop7lepyokq/Dear%20POPLA.pdf?dl=0

    I'll need to add more regarding the byelaws but I'm doing a little more digging.
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 14th Mar 17, 8:27 AM
    • 40,304 Posts
    • 80,504 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    • #9
    • 14th Mar 17, 8:27 AM
    • #9
    • 14th Mar 17, 8:27 AM
    Here is my current draft of the Popla doc
    dropbox . com/s/57bnpop7lepyokq/Dear%20POPLA.pdf?dl=0

    I'll need to add more regarding the byelaws but I'm doing a little more digging.
    Originally posted by perseat
    http://dropbox.com/s/57bnpop7lepyokq/Dear%20POPLA.pdf?dl=0

    I can't get that link to work.
    Last edited by Fruitcake; 14-03-2017 at 8:30 AM.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • perseat
    • By perseat 14th Mar 17, 10:12 PM
    • 26 Posts
    • 19 Thanks
    perseat
    Works for me when I click it and I'm not signed in.

    Try this:
    puu . sh/uJ2pg/31b5d491d9.pdf
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 15th Mar 17, 8:19 AM
    • 40,304 Posts
    • 80,504 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    Works for me when I click it and I'm not signed in.

    Try this:
    puu . sh/uJ2pg/31b5d491d9.pdf
    Originally posted by perseat
    http://puu.sh/uJ2pg/31b5d491d9.pdf

    It works now, but it is old and out of date. Not a GPEOL hasn't worked since Mr Beavis lost in the Supreme Court in 2015. The inadequate signage point is far too short. There is no mention of byelaws; did you investigate this potentially winning point?

    Please read post 3 of the NEWBIES thread and use all the relevant template appeal points you will find there. You must also find out if byelaws apply as that point alone will win if it is applicable.
    Last edited by Fruitcake; 15-03-2017 at 8:23 AM.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 15th Mar 17, 2:39 PM
    • 50,101 Posts
    • 63,484 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    ...search the forum for 'Indigo owner POPLA byelaws' to find a suitable POPLA appeal to adapt...OBVIOUSLY FROM RECENT MONTHS.

    NEVER read old ones!
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 19th Mar 17, 12:33 PM
    • 40,304 Posts
    • 80,504 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    Use the template appeal points from post 3 of the NEWBIES thread as already advised. There you will find an inadequate signage template point that is as long as your whole appeal above put together.

    I wouldn't bother with not a GPEOL. It will not win.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • perseat
    • By perseat 19th Mar 17, 5:35 PM
    • 26 Posts
    • 19 Thanks
    perseat
    Here is an updated version of the pdf with images:
    puu . sh/uQg8d/c354e7e59f.pdf
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 19th Mar 17, 6:09 PM
    • 50,101 Posts
    • 63,484 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    You need to add the template appeal point from post #3 of the NEWBIES thread about the appellant not being shown to be the individual liable (owner).

    And this needs changing in your first point, as shown:

    To conclude this point, the Metrolink parking area is governed by byelaws under Point 14 of the Greater Manchester Light Rapid Transit System Act 1988 which can only impose the 'AUTHORITY AND PENALTIES' listed under 2(2) of the Metrolink Byelaws linked above:

    2) ''Any Person contravening any of these Byelaws shall be liable upon
    summary conviction to a fine not exceeding level 3 on the standard
    scale (as defined in Section 37 of the Criminal Justice Act 1982).''


    A 'parking charge notice' issued by a private contractor - Care Parking - is no such 'fine', so this is an unauthorised charge for the location. Effectively this is an attempt at a bribe to pay a sum to a private contractor, to avoid Magistrates court. It is noted that there has been no contravention of any byelaw anyway, so neither the driver nor the owner would be liable for any 'fine'.

    Parking at this location clearly falls under statutory control so there can be no keeper liability under the POFA 2012 and neither can the driver be held liable to pay a third party parking firm a sum 'in lieu of' a penalty. This is simply not an option under the byelaws and the Secretary of State has granted no lawful authority to any corporate body to enforce penalties/fines (or 'charges' mimicking a fine) on byelaws land.

    Further, it is unclear and ambiguous whether the driver is bound by 'terms and conditions' or byelaws. The sign is very wordy but talks about 'enforcement' occurring at any time. This is confusing, especially given the fact this is byelaws land, and breaches the BPA Code of Practice by suggesting that Care Parking have a a level of 'enforcement authority' that does not lawfully exist.

    So this 'parking charge notice' cannot be held to have been properly given.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • perseat
    • By perseat 19th Mar 17, 6:37 PM
    • 26 Posts
    • 19 Thanks
    perseat
    In this case they are aware I am the driver, thank you for the extended version of the conclusion on my first point. How's this?
    puu . sh/uQkpl/fb34ffca9f.pdf

    And should I also send this off when complete ASAP or wait till the NTK window has closed?
    Last edited by perseat; 19-03-2017 at 6:45 PM.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 19th Mar 17, 6:56 PM
    • 50,101 Posts
    • 63,484 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    In this case they are aware I am the driver,
    I know. That's not what I said.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • perseat
    • By perseat 19th Mar 17, 7:06 PM
    • 26 Posts
    • 19 Thanks
    perseat
    I know. That's not what I said.
    Originally posted by Coupon-mad
    But in this case should I be appealing as the registered keeper noting no NTK was sent, but the window isn't over.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 19th Mar 17, 10:44 PM
    • 50,101 Posts
    • 63,484 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    No, there will be no need for any NTK. As you have said who was driving this isn't about 'no keeper liability' under the POFA.

    What I said was:

    You need to add the template appeal point from post #3 of the NEWBIES thread about the appellant not being shown to be the individual liable (owner).
    You will have seen that in Indigo railway POPLA appeals, it features a lot. I realise yours is not Indigo but it is Metrolink/byelaws so you should be reading Indigo railway POPLA examples and cribbing from that wording, as already advised.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • perseat
    • By perseat 30th Mar 17, 10:32 PM
    • 26 Posts
    • 19 Thanks
    perseat
    No, there will be no need for any NTK. As you have said who was driving this isn't about 'no keeper liability' under the POFA.

    What I said was:



    You will have seen that in Indigo railway POPLA appeals, it features a lot. I realise yours is not Indigo but it is Metrolink/byelaws so you should be reading Indigo railway POPLA examples and cribbing from that wording, as already advised.
    Originally posted by Coupon-mad
    Sorry I've been out of the country and not had time to check in.
    Isn't the compliant notice to keeper covering this?

    puu . sh/uQkpl/fb34ffca9f.pdf
    Last edited by perseat; 30-03-2017 at 10:38 PM.
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