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  • FIRST POST
    • Ron2017
    • By Ron2017 13th Mar 17, 7:13 AM
    • 24Posts
    • 6Thanks
    Ron2017
    Pip eligibility
    • #1
    • 13th Mar 17, 7:13 AM
    Pip eligibility 13th Mar 17 at 7:13 AM
    Hello, i wonder if someone can help me as I am currently getting a headache about pip. I applied back in April last year and haven't even had an assessment yet as they have kept messing things up, but that's a whole book in itself but i wont go into that. I don't think i will get pip as i cannot prove I'm unwell if that makes sense.
    For the past six years i have been unable to work. It first started out with dizziness and pain in my chest, i never for one minute considered my heart as the pain lasted for hours at a time and i was only 32 at the time. To cut a long story short I have had every heart test you can imagine, most neurological tests but they still cannot find out what's wrong with me. They know it's something as i have passed out quite a few times and one neurologist said i have autonomic dysfunction when he examined me.
    Most of my time is spent lying down as I'm either in pain or so dizzy i cannot really stand, but on the odd occasion i feel reasonably okay i can easily prepare meals or walk 200 metres etc. The majority of the time i cannot do those things but I'm not sure if that will be considered. It also doesn't help that the doctors seem to be at a loss, i am still under cardiology as i have a recording device in my chest. After that i have no idea where they will refer me next.
    Basically any help is appreciated with regards to if I'm eligible for pip or not?
    Thank you.
Page 3
    • Muttleythefrog
    • By Muttleythefrog 15th Mar 17, 1:07 AM
    • 10,953 Posts
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    Muttleythefrog
    Let me start again as this is getting very complicated.

    I applied for pip in April 2016, actually after a nurse told me i should be getting it. After everything i have read about ATOS i was not going to bother but though the esa people may think it strange. To be honest I am surprised i have received ESA for so long without them once enquiring more about my condition.

    Forms went missing according to dwp so had to fill them out again. Hence why this has all took so long.

    Received a letter from dwp in November saying claim disallowed as failed to attend interview with ATOS. Mandatory reconsideration failed but won at tribunal.

    Man from DWP called and asked for bank details after telling me about tribunal decision etc. He was definitely from dwp and i am 100% sure of this.

    Rang ATOS to make sure there would not be another mistake and they offered me an appointment in Ilford in two days(not two days from now but two days from when i rang). I told them there is no way I'm going there. Even if i do venture out it's not far as pain/dizziness can hit me at anytime. Ilford is in Essex and i live in the suburbs of south east London, so quite far really.

    Sorry for the confusion.
    Originally posted by Ron2017
    No worries. But when was the ATOS appointment due? It's unclear as to whether the expectation is you're making a new appointment with them (as the location proposed is too far away) or if you're going to land up with a potentially new issue of failure to attend although 2 days notice isn't sufficient.. they should give 7 days notice I understand otherwise you'd be able to accept shorter if you were happy to do so. You expressed unhappiness so I presume this was not a formally arranged appointment at any time... but again... we're blind to things here.. this is a confusing claim.

    On the ESA they may be stalling on reassessment due to backlogs... I was due a year ago for reassessment but likely they've just let it lie for another 3 years... you may be facing similar. You don't detail your ESA claim.. it may be that details of why you qualify for that could be useful and any underlying reports. PIP criteria is different but it looks like DWP concluded significant disablement for ESA. I would be wanting to get hold of any reports that are in play for ESA award... but like I say if you've imminent assessment for PIP you may not have time for great preparations and plans at this point.
    Last edited by Muttleythefrog; 15-03-2017 at 1:19 AM.
    "Do not attribute to conspiracy what can adequately be explained by incompetence" - rogerblack
    • GlasweJen
    • By GlasweJen 15th Mar 17, 5:55 PM
    • 6,318 Posts
    • 11,344 Thanks
    GlasweJen
    I was booked referred to one about four years ago but then i was sent off in a different direction. But no doubt they will get around to it, to be honest it's the one test i dread as i feel dizzy enough as it is, without them trying to make me dizzy.
    Originally posted by Ron2017
    It won't necessarily make you dizzy, mine knocked me unconscious within 9 minutes but it got the answers. A lot of doctors these days will go straight to LINQ or REVEAL devices and by-pass HUTT testing as it's seen as primitive but it gets the job done.
    Bounts, Quidco, Shop and Scan, Receipt Hog, Costco Cashback, Debit card cashback

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    • Ron2017
    • By Ron2017 17th Mar 17, 9:39 PM
    • 24 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    Ron2017
    Hi everyone,

    I rang ATOS yesterday and they told me i have an appointment booked for the 28th March, I still haven't received anything in the post.
    I asked them what i should bring to help prove that I'm unwell and explained I have e no diagnosis. They told me they only want to ask how my illness affects me and do not need to see medical evidence. I asked if they had already received that from my doctor and they told me they have no need to contact my doctor and will go off what i tell them. Does not sound right to me but there you go.
    • Ron2017
    • By Ron2017 17th Mar 17, 9:43 PM
    • 24 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    Ron2017
    It won't necessarily make you dizzy, mine knocked me unconscious within 9 minutes but it got the answers. A lot of doctors these days will go straight to LINQ or REVEAL devices and by-pass HUTT testing as it's seen as primitive but it gets the job done.
    Originally posted by GlasweJen
    Saw my gp today and mentioned a tilt table test and was told there is no need of repeat it as it was negative before. I then told him that i never had one and when he rechecked it turns out I was right. No wonder I don't have a diagnosis yet
    But they are referring me again and also to the ent, I asked him why as surely my ear nose and throat would not cause all my symptoms. He said no but they might discover the cause of my dizziness, i said but surely they are all linked. He asked why i thoguht that and i said because they all started at the same time. I sometimes wonder why i bother lol.
    Thanks
    • Muttleythefrog
    • By Muttleythefrog 17th Mar 17, 10:02 PM
    • 10,953 Posts
    • 20,392 Thanks
    Muttleythefrog
    Hi everyone,

    I rang ATOS yesterday and they told me i have an appointment booked for the 28th March, I still haven't received anything in the post.
    I asked them what i should bring to help prove that I'm unwell and explained I have e no diagnosis. They told me they only want to ask how my illness affects me and do not need to see medical evidence. I asked if they had already received that from my doctor and they told me they have no need to contact my doctor and will go off what i tell them. Does not sound right to me but there you go.
    Originally posted by Ron2017
    They should be in receipt of completed PIP2 form and any evidence you've supplied.. but this case has been a bit of a mess. I'd take any copies of PIP2 form and your evidence to the assessment. Prepare as best you can with details of what problems you have with the various activities and have in mind the descriptors applicable. Try to get someone to go with you and in advance you might be able to agree with ATOS that they'll reimburse taxi fares (as opposed to standard reimburse of things like bus fare) if applicable. Good luck.
    Last edited by Muttleythefrog; 17-03-2017 at 10:05 PM.
    "Do not attribute to conspiracy what can adequately be explained by incompetence" - rogerblack
    • Ron2017
    • By Ron2017 28th Mar 17, 10:55 PM
    • 24 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    Ron2017
    Hi everyone,

    I had my assessment today but couldn't tell you how it went. I was just very honest and upfront. I'm almost sure I won't be awarded it, but as I have said previously you wouldn't look at me and think I had anything wrong. I told them that depending on the day/time I can do most things that normal people can do even though I may pay for it later. I had the physical, which is nothing my neurologist has not done before and that was over in minutes. It's difficult to put across that if i was having a bad day I couldn't have even got there let alone done all that.
    They were quite thorough in asking me questions and also the trick questions as well. I asked them why they asked if i could use a phone/tablet and she said that would show i had good dexterity in my hands, which i have never claimed otherwise. She also told me the exact distance i had walked to get to her office lol.
    Anyone know how long it takes to hear from the DWP?
    Many thanks for all the help so far!
    • Muttleythefrog
    • By Muttleythefrog 29th Mar 17, 12:05 AM
    • 10,953 Posts
    • 20,392 Thanks
    Muttleythefrog
    Hi everyone,

    I had my assessment today but couldn't tell you how it went. I was just very honest and upfront. I'm almost sure I won't be awarded it, but as I have said previously you wouldn't look at me and think I had anything wrong. I told them that depending on the day/time I can do most things that normal people can do even though I may pay for it later. I had the physical, which is nothing my neurologist has not done before and that was over in minutes. It's difficult to put across that if i was having a bad day I couldn't have even got there let alone done all that.
    They were quite thorough in asking me questions and also the trick questions as well. I asked them why they asked if i could use a phone/tablet and she said that would show i had good dexterity in my hands, which i have never claimed otherwise. She also told me the exact distance i had walked to get to her office lol.
    Anyone know how long it takes to hear from the DWP?
    Many thanks for all the help so far!
    Originally posted by Ron2017
    I would expect a decision to be taken in weeks rather than days... but probably not that many weeks. What you could do in the meantime is tomorrow call the DWP and ask for a copy of the assessment report.. the PA4 consultant report. That will tell you how the assessment went and will detail the descriptors (disabilities) that were deemed applicable. The DWP will likely use this report as their primary evidence in making a decision... and in many if not most cases their decision will replicate it. Give any updates here and people will no doubt offer advice.
    Last edited by Muttleythefrog; 29-03-2017 at 12:08 AM.
    "Do not attribute to conspiracy what can adequately be explained by incompetence" - rogerblack
    • retro2016
    • By retro2016 29th Mar 17, 8:35 AM
    • 1 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    retro2016
    Look up vasovagal syncope on Wikipedia. There are a lot of variations on this, but it seems very difficult to get a diagnosis. I suffer from a similar condition that, although more frequent than you describe, seems very similar. It took almost 2 years to diagnose as in my case it was the brain function not working correctly, rather than a problem with the heart, and this is apparently very unusual. I did find, though, that cardiologists seem slightly more familiar than neurologists and a tilt table test is certainly the way to go to get them to take you seriously. I did get awarded DLA, though, once finally diagnosed as none of the available treatments worked in my case. I am now transitioning to PIP, which means more explanations to people who have never heard of this condition and tend to put the problems down to conditions they have heard of rather than do any research.

    Good luck in any case.
    • Ron2017
    • By Ron2017 13th May 17, 11:12 AM
    • 24 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    Ron2017
    Hi everyone, i finally got my decision yesterday and as many of you predicted i was turned down. I was awarded 2 points for washing and bathing and 2 points for preparing meals. I was told I could use an aid to help with these things, even though they cannot tell me what that aid is.
    I was also awarded 4 points for the moving around.
    Any ideas where I go from here?
    Thanks again
    • poppy12345
    • By poppy12345 13th May 17, 11:36 AM
    • 1,759 Posts
    • 1,588 Thanks
    poppy12345
    Hi everyone, i finally got my decision yesterday and as many of you predicted i was turned down. I was awarded 2 points for washing and bathing and 2 points for preparing meals. I was told I could use an aid to help with these things, even though they cannot tell me what that aid is.
    I was also awarded 4 points for the moving around.
    Any ideas where I go from here?
    Thanks again
    Originally posted by Ron2017
    I'm sorry to hear that. You first step is to ask for a mandatory Reconsideration (MR) you only have 1 month from the date on the letter to get this in so be quick. You can ring them to start this off but then you'll need to put this in writing. Have you asked a for a copy of the assessment report? if not then it's a good idea to ring for a copy of this. Don't wait for this before doing the MR because time isn't on your hands. Did you send in any evidence to support your claim? Evidence is a vital part of the process!! Most MR decisions remain the same so be prepared to take it to Tribunal.

    I'm sure others will be along to add to what i've already adviced. Good luck
    • NeilCr
    • By NeilCr 13th May 17, 11:46 AM
    • 1,098 Posts
    • 1,217 Thanks
    NeilCr
    As poppy says you have 30 days to get your MR in

    Some more information here

    https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/benefits/sick-or-disabled-people-and-carers/pip/appeals/mandatory-reconsideration/

    Might be worth getting help from CAB or similar
    • Ron2017
    • By Ron2017 13th May 17, 11:46 AM
    • 24 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    Ron2017
    Hi Poppy, thanks for the reply.
    I already have a copy of the assessment and i asked for a mandatory reconsideration on the phone yesterday. I never sent in any evidence as I haven't really got any. All i could really provide is six years of hospital visits, appointments and tests etc
    I am going to send in a covering letter for my mandatory reconsideration, but I'm not sure if that will do any good.
    • Mojisola
    • By Mojisola 13th May 17, 11:50 AM
    • 28,637 Posts
    • 72,962 Thanks
    Mojisola
    I had my assessment today but couldn't tell you how it went.

    I told them that depending on the day/time I can do most things that normal people can do even though I may pay for it later.
    Originally posted by Ron2017
    The assessor would have stopped listening once you said you could do most things - to explain properly, you have say things like "No, I can't because if I do it, I will be ill afterwards".

    Remember, if you can't do things 'reliably, repeatedly and safely', you can't do what a fit person can do.


    Hi everyone, i finally got my decision yesterday and as many of you predicted i was turned down.

    Any ideas where I go from here?
    Originally posted by Ron2017
    This is a very helpful FB page -
    www.facebook.com/groups/278260135547189/
    • poppy12345
    • By poppy12345 13th May 17, 12:08 PM
    • 1,759 Posts
    • 1,588 Thanks
    poppy12345
    Hi Poppy, thanks for the reply.
    I already have a copy of the assessment and i asked for a mandatory reconsideration on the phone yesterday. I never sent in any evidence as I haven't really got any. All i could really provide is six years of hospital visits, appointments and tests etc
    I am going to send in a covering letter for my mandatory reconsideration, but I'm not sure if that will do any good.
    Originally posted by Ron2017
    You'll need to put the request in writing also. Having no evidence won't help. You have to prove those descriptors apply to you. Can you write a diary? ask someone who knows you well to write a letter for you. Appointment letters aren't of much use to be honest.
    • Muttleythefrog
    • By Muttleythefrog 13th May 17, 12:41 PM
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    Muttleythefrog
    Quickly giving advice... I would make sure that you do construct a good Mandatory Reconsideration letter focussing on the activities and their descriptors.

    In a sense you do have a basis to work with.. you already have the PIP report and you'll be able to see if the decision essentially mirrored it... check. From that there is already an acceptance of some disablements and it may be along similar lines you can argue others apply... whilst adding description of your difficulties to convince of other scoring descriptors. Majisola raises key points above... I suspect your wording at assessment may have given them easy routes out of considering scoring descriptors...a sort of 'claimant reports they can perform the activity at various times through a typical day' type of approach. Got to be so careful with language and qualify the difficulties especially with consideration for safely (acceptable standard), reliably, repeatedly and in a reasonable time. This is especially important if you are able to perform activities but as you put it.. you'll pay for it later... you must be able to perform an activity to these criteria in order to be considered able to do it... for example if someone can walk 50 metres but it takes them 20 minutes then that clearly would not be a reasonable time... so they shouldn't be considered able to walk 50 metres.

    All is certainly not lost... and you may have time to get tailored assistance for the MR especially since you already have the PA4 report. Don't expect a lot from MR but it is a necessary step if wanting to make a later appeal to tribunal.
    Last edited by Muttleythefrog; 13-05-2017 at 1:09 PM.
    "Do not attribute to conspiracy what can adequately be explained by incompetence" - rogerblack
    • Ron2017
    • By Ron2017 15th May 17, 1:23 AM
    • 24 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    Ron2017
    Hi everyone, once again thanks for all the replies.
    I now have the assessment papers through and to be honest I'm even more confused than I was.
    Firstly I was asked how often I have symptoms and i said everyday, which is true. I was pressed further and said that on average two days out of seven would be normal days, but that is only if I added up all the hours without pain and/or dizziness. In some parts of the report she acknowledged this but still made a lot of recommendations based on 2 days out of seven.
    I told her that if I was not in pain or dizzy i could walk more than 200 metres​, but when in pain and dizzy i can barely manage to get to the toilet. She has put down thirty metres, but in her words in another part she has wrote, the mso found a normal range of movement and power in all​ limbs and the informal observation noted that he was able to walk the 45 metres to the assessment room at a normal pace and with a normal gait. Taking into consideration the number of days that he is affected by these symptoms the evidence suggests that he can stand and then move more than 50 metres but no more than 200 metres reliably and repeatedly.

    Another thing that confuses me is that she updated the report one month after I saw her but it does not say what changes​ were made.
    This has taken thirteen months so far and i just don't think it's worth arguing with them really.
    Thanks​ again.
    • Muttleythefrog
    • By Muttleythefrog 15th May 17, 8:20 AM
    • 10,953 Posts
    • 20,392 Thanks
    Muttleythefrog
    Another thing that confuses me is that she updated the report one month after I saw her but it does not say what changes​ were made.
    This has taken thirteen months so far and i just don't think it's worth arguing with them really.
    Thanks​ again.
    Originally posted by Ron2017
    Your case is confusing full stop..lol. So to clarify... you eventually managed to get your face to face assessment... you requested the assessment report and got that... then a few weeks later you got a decision from the DWP that is or is not in line with that report? Then now you have received another report copy suggesting the face to face assessment report has been amended (you say it doesn't identify what changes were made but surely you can tell right?) To be honest it is difficult to get a handle on this... but tailored advice to pursue the matter in reconsideration and beyond if necessary may be required... someone to sit down and see what has happened and work out the best arguments given the evidence and decision letter. If you don't get support and want to construct the reconsideration letter... I advise doing so in a logical simple way. Your personal details including NiNo number.. the decision you wish them to reconsider (PIP decision of date x that I was not entitled to an award).. then go through each activity identifying which descriptor you think should apply and detailing why (including any evidence that supports your view including the assessment report if applicable.. or indeed anything from ESA evidence/award). You could make some generic challenge to the report in comment...'the HCP seemed to consider me able to perform tasks that for the majority of the time I am unable to safely, reliably, repeatedly... this despite my explanation in detail at assessment' that kind of thing. And end with a conclusion asking them to reconsider the decision and saying what award you should get.
    Last edited by Muttleythefrog; 15-05-2017 at 8:47 AM.
    "Do not attribute to conspiracy what can adequately be explained by incompetence" - rogerblack
    • Ron2017
    • By Ron2017 15th May 17, 8:42 AM
    • 24 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    Ron2017
    Hi mutley, thanks for the response.

    The second copy of the assessment i received is basically the same as the first except that this one tells me that changes were made, but does not show the changes.
    The decision from DWP is exactly in line with the recommendation made by the atos person. The report does contradict itself though and is even portrayed wrong in places, than what was actually discussed.
    I'm just wondering if it's even worth pursuing as i don't really have medical evidence as even the doctors are stumped.
    Thanks
    • Muttleythefrog
    • By Muttleythefrog 15th May 17, 8:54 AM
    • 10,953 Posts
    • 20,392 Thanks
    Muttleythefrog
    Hi mutley, thanks for the response.

    The second copy of the assessment i received is basically the same as the first except that this one tells me that changes were made, but does not show the changes.
    The decision from DWP is exactly in line with the recommendation made by the atos person. The report does contradict itself though and is even portrayed wrong in places, than what was actually discussed.
    I'm just wondering if it's even worth pursuing as i don't really have medical evidence as even the doctors are stumped.
    Thanks
    Originally posted by Ron2017
    I've been adding to my post as you were posting... in terms of pursuing reconsideration. I wouldn't say a lack of supporting evidence is a terminal barrier. Any letters confirming things like diagnosis or the inability to reach one could be useful in simply verifying the sorts of problems you have... giving a basic to argue certain disabilities in relation to the descriptors apply. I do think your chances at appeal will be higher than reconsideration... at appeal... if you go... the panel will be able to enquire directly of you your difficulties and there is a good chance they'll do so with entirely sound intent to reach logical decisions on applicable descriptors... an intent that the HCP should have but may be thwarted due to various factors including unwritten targets of time and 'performance'. But first reconsideration... if you decide to continue with the matter. Support may be very useful.
    "Do not attribute to conspiracy what can adequately be explained by incompetence" - rogerblack
    • Ron2017
    • By Ron2017 15th May 17, 11:40 AM
    • 24 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    Ron2017
    Thanks again.

    I am going to try and see someone but I don't hold out much hope where I live as things like cab are totally overwhelmed.
    I have contacted DWP for my original report(unedited) and they say they have never had a copy, i asked atos for a copy and they say they do not hold that and send it all to the DWP. So basically that's another barrier, i would love to see the original as they must have edited it for a reason.
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