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  • FIRST POST
    • MercilessKiller
    • By MercilessKiller 11th Mar 17, 5:02 PM
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    MercilessKiller
    TFL Yellow Box penalty notice
    • #1
    • 11th Mar 17, 5:02 PM
    TFL Yellow Box penalty notice 11th Mar 17 at 5:02 PM
    Hi All

    Received one of those dreaded penalties for stopping in a yellow box.

    In this case, it's a Yellow Box on Purley way at a horrible junction (anyone who knows that road will know it). It goes uphill so can have poor visibility.

    Anyway, I'm following traffic, and there's clearly plenty of room beyond the box. I'm following another car, and for some reason he stops about half a car width in front of the yellow box though has plenty of room in front of him. I unfortunately then have to stop. Half my car is beyond the yellow box (or just under) - front tyres beyond it, rear tyers on the wrong side.

    I wasn't blocking any traffic what so ever. And after me beeping the idiot in front a few times, he moved forward and I proceeded to go beyond the box.

    Is this grounds for appeal? My worry is that I appeal, it gets denied, and rather than pay the £65 discounted fine I have to pay the full £130.

    Would love advice on this from any experts. If everyone stopped before the other side was openly clear, it would be ridiculous as it is uphill so that would mean every car at a green light on this 30 road would have to stop, wait, and then go?

    Thanks!
    "The internet is a great way to get on the net."
    - Bob Dole, Republican presidential candidate
Page 1
    • Car 54
    • By Car 54 11th Mar 17, 5:20 PM
    • 1,840 Posts
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    Car 54
    • #2
    • 11th Mar 17, 5:20 PM
    • #2
    • 11th Mar 17, 5:20 PM
    I imagine you mean the Edgehill Road junction.

    Sorry, I can't see any grounds for appeal.
    • m0bov
    • By m0bov 11th Mar 17, 5:33 PM
    • 928 Posts
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    m0bov
    • #3
    • 11th Mar 17, 5:33 PM
    • #3
    • 11th Mar 17, 5:33 PM
    This is by skoda dealer?
    • phill99
    • By phill99 11th Mar 17, 6:25 PM
    • 7,755 Posts
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    phill99
    • #4
    • 11th Mar 17, 6:25 PM
    • #4
    • 11th Mar 17, 6:25 PM
    You were either stopped in it or you weren't. By the sounds of it, you were stopped in it. Seems black and white to me. What the guy in front does or doesn't do is not grounds for appeal.
    Eat vegetables and fear no creditors, rather than eat duck and hide.
    • poppasmurf_bewdley
    • By poppasmurf_bewdley 11th Mar 17, 7:09 PM
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    poppasmurf_bewdley
    • #5
    • 11th Mar 17, 7:09 PM
    • #5
    • 11th Mar 17, 7:09 PM
    Was the yellow box clear when you entered?

    Clearly, it wasn't as the car in front of you stopped, forcing you to stop within the hatched area.

    You have committed the offence.
    There are not enough superlatives in the English language to describe a 'Princess Coronation' locomotive in full cry. We shall never see their like again". O.S. Nock
    • MercilessKiller
    • By MercilessKiller 11th Mar 17, 7:16 PM
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    MercilessKiller
    • #6
    • 11th Mar 17, 7:16 PM
    • #6
    • 11th Mar 17, 7:16 PM
    I would argue that 100% of people do not wait for the hatched area to be fully clear before entering it. The start of the hatched area is not like a stop junction.. This is a 30mph road, dual carriage way, uphill. If EVERY car stopped first, waited, then went, that would be weird.

    The guy had plenty of room in front of him (and did move once I beeped a few times). This is the weird thing - If you drive and go over a yellow box next time, I would bet a large amount of cash that, when clear in front of the car ahead, you enter the hatched area before the other car has exited...
    "The internet is a great way to get on the net."
    - Bob Dole, Republican presidential candidate
    • neilmcl
    • By neilmcl 11th Mar 17, 7:18 PM
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    neilmcl
    • #7
    • 11th Mar 17, 7:18 PM
    • #7
    • 11th Mar 17, 7:18 PM
    I would argue that 100% of people do not wait for the hatched area to be fully clear before entering it. The start of the hatched area is not like a stop junction.. This is a 30mph road, dual carriage way, uphill. If EVERY car stopped first, waited, then went, that would be weird.

    The guy had plenty of room in front of him (and did move once I beeped a few times). This is the weird thing - If you drive and go over a yellow box next time, I would bet a large amount of cash that, when clear in front of the car ahead, you enter the hatched area before the other car has exited...
    Originally posted by MercilessKiller
    Still doesn't mean you have grounds for appeal.
    • ohreally
    • By ohreally 11th Mar 17, 7:24 PM
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    ohreally
    • #8
    • 11th Mar 17, 7:24 PM
    • #8
    • 11th Mar 17, 7:24 PM
    You MUST NOT enter the box until your exit road or lane is clear
    Highway code 173
    • MercilessKiller
    • By MercilessKiller 11th Mar 17, 7:31 PM
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    MercilessKiller
    • #9
    • 11th Mar 17, 7:31 PM
    • #9
    • 11th Mar 17, 7:31 PM
    By this argument, 100% of people should receive tickets in that case (or pretty close)?
    "The internet is a great way to get on the net."
    - Bob Dole, Republican presidential candidate
    • stator
    • By stator 11th Mar 17, 7:43 PM
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    stator
    Highway code 173
    Originally posted by ohreally
    But if the exit IS clear when you enter it, because the car in front of you is crossing the box, then he stops in the box or immediately on the other side of the box and forces you to stop in the box?

    I don't know this junction but some of those cross hatched boxes are very big. Are you saying only one car can enter at a time and the car behind has to wait for the car in front to fully cross the box and an extra space for you before you enter the box? I can't see that happening ever. If people did that these junctions would grind to a halt with massive tailbacks.
    Changing the world, one sarcastic comment at a time.
    • MercilessKiller
    • By MercilessKiller 11th Mar 17, 7:59 PM
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    MercilessKiller
    But if the exit IS clear when you enter it, because the car in front of you is crossing the box, then he stops in the box or immediately on the other side of the box and forces you to stop in the box?

    I don't know this junction but some of those cross hatched boxes are very big. Are you saying only one car can enter at a time and the car behind has to wait for the car in front to fully cross the box and an extra space for you before you enter the box? I can't see that happening ever. If people did that these junctions would grind to a halt with massive tailbacks.
    Originally posted by stator
    My point exactly. This is a huge junction. 2 to 3 lanes from every angle in a huge box. It's unreasonable to think you have to wait for the car to exit before you enter, when the exit is clear.
    "The internet is a great way to get on the net."
    - Bob Dole, Republican presidential candidate
    • sheramber
    • By sheramber 11th Mar 17, 8:12 PM
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    sheramber
    Doesn't matter if we agree with you or not it is not going to change the fact that you have been caught and fined.

    Others may have been lucky and didn't need to to stop in the box as the road ahead cleared in time. Or maybe they weren't caught.

    Many manoeuvres cause tail backs. That is a fact of driving today.

    Until the law is changed you comply with it.
    • Retrogamer
    • By Retrogamer 11th Mar 17, 8:13 PM
    • 3,653 Posts
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    Retrogamer
    Are you saying only one car can enter at a time and the car behind has to wait for the car in front to fully cross the box and an extra space for you before you enter the box?
    Originally posted by stator
    Yes

    That's how they should be used from a legal stance.
    • mije1983
    • By mije1983 11th Mar 17, 8:18 PM
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    mije1983
    By this argument, 100% of people should receive tickets in that case (or pretty close)?
    Originally posted by MercilessKiller
    Correct. The highway code is pretty clear. The reason it doesn't happen is that not every box has a camera monitoring it so cannot realistically happen.

    The fact someone else doesn't get caught is not a legitimate defence.

    By all means appeal if you think you have a case though and can convince them that it would be unreasonable to follow the highway code at this junction, however I don't feel you have a case.

    • rich13348
    • By rich13348 11th Mar 17, 8:31 PM
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    rich13348
    The way you describe it the traffic was not free flowing. So if you have to stop and wait until the exit is clear and the car in front is not going to block you then you can go. If the traffic slow moving waiting a few seconds won't cause too many issues.
    • Car 54
    • By Car 54 11th Mar 17, 9:47 PM
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    Car 54
    The actual legislation to which the HC refers says: "...no person shall cause a vehicle to enter the box junction so that the vehicle has to stop within the box junction due to the presence of stationary vehicle", with the same exception about turning right.

    That's probably even clearer than the HC.
    • Itsgottabedone
    • By Itsgottabedone 11th Mar 17, 10:21 PM
    • 268 Posts
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    Itsgottabedone
    I was caught in almost identical circumstances in a London Borough adjoining yours. I wrote a reasoned reply pointing out that the car in front had stopped with a long gap in front of him which resulted in my back tyres being on the edge of the yellow box. Mentioned that the photos attached to the fine letter showed clearly that I wasn't causing an obstruction to traffic on or joining the main road. Sadly they declined my appeal, saying that it was up to me to ensure that the car in front had left sufficient space for me to cross the box!

    On the plus side, there was an indication on the original letter that the reduced rate of fine would be applied in the event of an appeal being made provided it was paid within 14 days of the appeal being declined. If that's the case with yours I'd give an appeal a go - you've nothing to lose! Good luck.
    • konark
    • By konark 11th Mar 17, 10:39 PM
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    konark
    And if you wait patiently at the other side of the box until there is room for you to cross you get some muppet blowing his horn angrily at you. So it's lose-lose.
    • stator
    • By stator 12th Mar 17, 12:08 AM
    • 5,490 Posts
    • 3,489 Thanks
    stator
    The actual legislation to which the HC refers says: "...no person shall cause a vehicle to enter the box junction so that the vehicle has to stop within the box junction due to the presence of stationary vehicle", with the same exception about turning right.

    That's probably even clearer than the HC.
    Originally posted by Car 54
    That wording makes it sounds like the driver in front caused the offense
    Changing the world, one sarcastic comment at a time.
    • AndyMc.....
    • By AndyMc..... 12th Mar 17, 12:16 AM
    • 391 Posts
    • 252 Thanks
    AndyMc.....
    That wording makes it sounds like the driver in front caused the offense
    Originally posted by stator
    That's one way of looking at it.

    The only way not to be caught out is not to enter the box until you know you can clear it.
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