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  • FIRST POST
    • cavework
    • By cavework 11th Mar 17, 2:56 PM
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    cavework
    What job do you do ? How much do you think you are worth per hour?
    • #1
    • 11th Mar 17, 2:56 PM
    What job do you do ? How much do you think you are worth per hour? 11th Mar 17 at 2:56 PM
    As above...anyone brave enough to answer? Then let's add in getting the work in the first place? Then let's add in working for nothing until the job is completed but paying anyone who has worked for you in advance? Then add in sorting out your own NI and Tax and VAT ..H&S advice ..HR advice...demands by clients you need to be accredited to certain bodies in regards to getting that job? Then add in the late payers? Add in the pension contributions for staff ..holiday pay?.. sick pay, maternity pay ? Jobs that go wrong and the cost? All that has to be added into the equation that sums up being self employed
    Last edited by cavework; 11-03-2017 at 3:09 PM.
Page 2
    • BreconBlodwin
    • By BreconBlodwin 11th Mar 17, 6:22 PM
    • 3 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    BreconBlodwin
    I think this thread is better suited to the Arms, especially if I judge it by the replies so far. So that's where it's headed.....
    Originally posted by jobbingmusician
    I agree. You are obviously the sheriff in this town and you deserve massive respect.
    • cavework
    • By cavework 11th Mar 17, 6:33 PM
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    cavework
    I must admit to bladdering on a bit and thanks to everyone who replied but I also am committed to say it as I see it when it comes to SME businesses and employment.
    • Pyxis
    • By Pyxis 11th Mar 17, 6:34 PM
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    Pyxis
    It just seems a weird question / set of questions with no useful outcome to anyone?
    Originally posted by motorguy
    I suppose it's because I was self-employed for many years, but I knew straight away what Cavework meant.

    It would appear there are two issues here; firstly, the question about what hourly rate are you worth, and secondly, an outline of the 'perils and pitfalls' of being self-employed, compared with being employed.

    Being self-employed and with staff, you are also a revenue collector for the government. You collect the staff's NI contributions, then you top those up with Employers' contributions. You deduct and then pay to the Revenue the staff's PAYE, and if you are VAT-registered, you also have to calculate and pay that.

    My accountant always used to tell me that that was part of the reason that my own NI contributions were lower; not just because I would not be entitled to benefits, but also because I was an unpaid tax collector!
    (I just lurve spiders! )
    INFJ(Turbulent).

    Her Greenliness Baroness Pyxis of the Alphabetty, Pinnacle of Peadom
    Founder Member: WIMPS ANONYMOUS
    • motorguy
    • By motorguy 11th Mar 17, 6:42 PM
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    motorguy
    So ..Motorguy your hourly rate is? Thanks for being honest here..
    Originally posted by cavework
    Lets say £60 an hour.
    You are not special. You are not a beautiful and unique snowflake.
    • daytona0
    • By daytona0 11th Mar 17, 6:42 PM
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    daytona0
    I run my own business. The question I am asking is aimed at employees and the self employed..
    I am worth at least £30.00 per hour.. not a great deal I admit .
    Originally posted by cavework
    If you run your own business then surely you are worth whatever you earn?

    Saying that you are worth at least £30.00 per hour when, after putting in your own blood and sweat, you can't even attain that hourly rate is a bit ambitious....

    Or are you currently earning £30.00 per hour and effectively just bragging? Fair enough if you are, just would be helpful if you were transparent about it like....
    • motorguy
    • By motorguy 11th Mar 17, 6:49 PM
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    motorguy
    I suppose it's because I was self-employed for many years, but I knew straight away what Cavework meant.

    It would appear there are two issues here; firstly, the question about what hourly rate are you worth, and secondly, an outline of the 'perils and pitfalls' of being self-employed, compared with being employed.
    Originally posted by Pyxis
    Again, does it matter what hourly rate you think your worth, other than making a judgement on what the market can support?

    If you're business is generating the hour rate you think you're worth then great, if not, well it doesnt change much does it? You're under those circumstances being self employed for some reason other than absolute financial reward?
    You are not special. You are not a beautiful and unique snowflake.
    • cavework
    • By cavework 11th Mar 17, 6:51 PM
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    cavework
    The true cost of an employee is not just the wage..you have to factor in taxes ..sick pay ..shedloads of other expenses including error. When you employ someone you are hiring them to deliver a service they claim they can deliver, bit like buying a machine that says it can produce X amount in the time of Y amount. If the machine doesn't deliver you replace it. This is true business sense.. a business has to make profit and the first requirement of an employee is to be profitable..Forget team building ..there are companies out there that charge and make money for making people happy...in the employees own time.
    • cavework
    • By cavework 11th Mar 17, 6:59 PM
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    cavework
    If you're business is generating the hourly rate you think you're worth then great, if not, well it doesnt change much does it? You're under those circumstances being self employed for some reason other than absolute financial reward?

    No one should take the risks of starting and running their own business if they are not looking for financial reward at the end of the day.A business owner should be aware of their hourly rate and yes I earn the £30.00 per hour. My time does cost the business ..the time I spend working/dealing with employees and current jobs on the books admin ..H&S and all the other requirements SE people have to deal with...could be more profitable spent bringing in further work from existing customers or new customers
    Last edited by cavework; 11-03-2017 at 7:20 PM.
    • daytona0
    • By daytona0 11th Mar 17, 7:29 PM
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    daytona0
    The true cost of an employee is not just the wage..you have to factor in taxes ..sick pay ..shedloads of other expenses including error. When you employ someone you are hiring them to deliver a service they claim they can deliver, bit like buying a machine that says it can produce X amount in the time of Y amount. If the machine doesn't deliver you replace it. This is true business sense.. a business has to make profit and the first requirement of an employee is to be profitable..Forget team building ..there are companies out there that charge and make money for making people happy...in the employees own time.
    Originally posted by cavework
    What a weird way of viewing employees! Have to say that I would be very reluctant to work for you, even i I excelled in the job role! Why? Because of the way you would view me as a mindless robot who is only good for the contributions which YOU deem are acceptable! And the lack of team building?! Yikes, if you want to breed a culture of "jumping ship" then by all means pay no respect to the importance of building up your team! I would also be very demotivated to learn that you axed someone because, despite initially hiring them, you deemed them to be useless..

    Businesses exist to make money I agree, but if you treat your employees in the manner you describe then you actually run the risk of LOSING money...

    "Forget team building" - funny line
    • daytona0
    • By daytona0 11th Mar 17, 7:33 PM
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    daytona0
    I earn the £30.00 per hour.
    Originally posted by cavework
    Why didn't you just say that in the first place then? Instead of being so cryptic about it!

    So you have effectively reached the glass ceiling... well done! Hope you don't lose your ambition now that you have reached the level which agrees with your valuation (£30.00 per hour).
    • mark1959
    • By mark1959 11th Mar 17, 7:38 PM
    • 243 Posts
    • 257 Thanks
    mark1959
    I am also glad I don't work for you mr caveman.
    • cavework
    • By cavework 11th Mar 17, 7:44 PM
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    cavework
    Sadly ..if I could get a robot to do your job ..as an employer , I would.Lot's of larger Companies have done this. You are only worth what I pay plus any profit I make... team building? what is that? If you want to be happy there are lots of companies set up to do this ..in your own time and paid for by you. Employees consideration for profit is about 30th in their list of lifes importance . Rightly so they have their own agenda..Then again...if employees on a low wage want to improve their lifestyle by increasing their income ..the onus is on them ..go out there and get better qualifications , climb the employment ladder, but do it yourself . At the end of the day I employ you I am not running a crèche .
    • ceredigion
    • By ceredigion 11th Mar 17, 7:55 PM
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    ceredigion
    The last time I set my rate part of the calculations were based on what an employee in a medium to large business costs. Sat and worked it out to salary plus 80 to 100% , so an employee on £30,000 salary needs to generate a worth of around £60k to justify their existence.


    As a sole trader add together your business costs plus your wages and divide that by the number of weeks you think you should work in a year divide that by 37 hours so
    £15,000 business expenses (transport, office, legal fees, plant, tools etc)
    £30,000 salary

    £45,000


    52 weeks in a year minus
    5 weeks holiday
    5 weeks you spent working but not chargeable


    42


    45,000 divided by 42 = £1,071 per week or £214 per day or £28.94 per hour .
    • cavework
    • By cavework 11th Mar 17, 7:56 PM
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    cavework
    OK ..Now you all hate me and think I am a bad employer...I will tell the truth. All the things I have said are in a book I bought about how to run your own business and make a profit. Some of it does make sense and some is only useful if you only want to become a money grabbing despot who cares nothing about the welfare of your staff...
    I do employ and the people I employ tend to stay with us for 4 - 5 years...many who leave want to return..
    • keepcalmandstayoutofdebt
    • By keepcalmandstayoutofdebt 11th Mar 17, 7:58 PM
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    keepcalmandstayoutofdebt
    Simple question for.employees and for you RichardD19 ..how much per hour do you think unskilled labour with no qualifications should be paid..?
    Originally posted by cavework
    What ever national minimum wage is for starters. Though I can feel your pain, only today I was in a shop spending a fiver and thought goodness this doesn't even represent paying someone for a whole hour. both grandads were self employed to their absolute detriment.

    The prospective is it's all about the hours worked; a 35 hour council job at £8.05 shall give someone around £14,650 (should have cried when I remembered this gem Christmas Eve when working out figures!) whereas I also worked nearer 50 hours in a depot at £7.00 coming away with a salary of £18,200. As to whether someone truly fits in that's another topic.

    Currently I am fortunate enough my company appears guided by a loan company we're near as to local market rates for contact centre work. Though we have a culture of unpaid overtime going on as well so I guess there is no real winner.
    "If you are caught in a rainstorm, once you accept that you'll receive a soaking, the only thing left to do is enjoy the walk"
    • daytona0
    • By daytona0 11th Mar 17, 8:13 PM
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    daytona0
    Sadly ..if I could get a robot to do your job ..as an employer , I would.
    Originally posted by cavework
    Well.. you say that but bear in mind that robots come with their own expenses:

    1. Upkeep (you going to pay someone to maintain your robots? Will they be MORE skilled and command a higher rate of pay?)

    2. Initially buying the equipment (though this could be classed as an asset to an extent)

    3. Handling the redundancies for existing employees

    4. Updating your robots to keep up with future trends within your business

    *maybe* it will be cheaper, but it may not be... Do you have any quotations which support your idea that robots would be cheaper?

    If you don't then you are speculating, and perhaps you would be better suited to stock market trading?

    Lot's of larger Companies have done this. You are only worth what I pay plus any profit I make... team building? what is that? If you want to be happy there are lots of companies set up to do this ..in your own time and paid for by you. Employees consideration for profit is about 30th in their list of lifes importance . Rightly so they have their own agenda..
    Lots of larger companies do "team building" basically because it costs less to RETAIN staff than it does to train new ones. This is a fairly common thing within business....

    I think it is less common to find a company which pays no consideration towards "team building". Maybe the smaller ones or the cliquey ones can get away with that, but keeping your employees happy is a big part of being successful!

    Then again...if employees on a low wage want to improve their lifestyle by increasing their income ..the onus is on them ..go out there and get better qualifications , climb the employment ladder, but do it yourself . At the end of the day I employ you I am not running a crèche .
    Indeed... But the best employers actually firstly hire the right people and secondly DEVELOP the people into the roles that they want.

    You come across as a very limited opportunity for an employee... no development, no team building, very cut-throat. You offer very little aside from the money, do you realise that?
    • motorguy
    • By motorguy 11th Mar 17, 8:19 PM
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    motorguy
    OK ..Now you all hate me and think I am a bad employer...I will tell the truth. All the things I have said are in a book I bought about how to run your own business and make a profit. Some of it does make sense and some is only useful if you only want to become a money grabbing despot who cares nothing about the welfare of your staff...
    I do employ and the people I employ tend to stay with us for 4 - 5 years...many who leave want to return..
    Originally posted by cavework
    And i'm still not seeing the point of all this?

    Companies only employ people because they need them to make money.
    You are not special. You are not a beautiful and unique snowflake.
    • motorguy
    • By motorguy 11th Mar 17, 8:25 PM
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    motorguy

    No one should take the risks of starting and running their own business if they are not looking for financial reward at the end of the day.
    Originally posted by cavework
    Thats not the only reason people become self employed. Its not the reason i'm self employed.


    My time does cost the business ..the time I spend working/dealing with employees and current jobs on the books admin ..H&S and all the other requirements SE people have to deal with...could be more profitable spent bringing in further work from existing customers or new customers
    Originally posted by cavework
    Yes. If you have a very small business or are a self employed sole trader then you have to do those tasks yourself. I do them in non fee earning hours, when i cant otherwise make money.

    When a business is bigger you farm out the low value stuff to other employees to allow yourself to concentrate on the business.
    You are not special. You are not a beautiful and unique snowflake.
    • cavework
    • By cavework 11th Mar 17, 8:30 PM
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    cavework
    Motorguy....sorry but this was just a bit of an experiment to see if we as employers were doing things right .. The people we employ do make us a profit and hopefully we treat them with the due respect and rewards they deserve.We are doing things properly
    The feed back has been fantastic ...another ''how to' in business books now heading for the recycle bin...


    Thank you
    • Mandelbrot
    • By Mandelbrot 11th Mar 17, 9:09 PM
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    Mandelbrot
    I think this thread is better suited to the Arms, especially if I judge it by the replies so far. So that's where it's headed.....
    Originally posted by jobbingmusician
    I don't agree.
    IMO this thread is totally unsuited to the Arms.
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