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  • FIRST POST
    • ryanm8655
    • By ryanm8655 11th Mar 17, 6:28 AM
    • 56Posts
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    ryanm8655
    Am I entitled to redundancy pay?
    • #1
    • 11th Mar 17, 6:28 AM
    Am I entitled to redundancy pay? 11th Mar 17 at 6:28 AM
    I've been a civil servant for about 3.5 years. In august last year I moved departments on a mini promotion. The move was via an other government departmental transfer in order to preserve my continuous employment for the purposes of redundancy and pension.

    After a few months in the job I learned they were restructuring and everyone in the organisation had to reapply for their job including me. At this stage I could have taken redundancy by not applying for my job/any job. Despite being in the pipeline long before I joined this wasn't mentioned which made me feel I'd been duped to be honest...in spite of this I thought about the long term and applied for my job and was awarded it...

    When I applied I was on probation, this was extended after 3 months as they felt I hadn't had sufficient time to demonstrate what I could do in the role. I then had 2 months signed off from work with stress. On my return to work there was a loose discussion around extending my probation to allow for time off sick. A date was agreed a month later.

    In early February my boss and I had a probation catch up, from the discussion there didn't seem to be any major issues, he did t express that I wasn't meeting expectations or anything. He said about one particular area of work I had yet to demonstrate but acknowledged other priorities had put that on the back burner.

    He then emailed 2 weeks later with a note covering the meeting and had rated 2 out of 6 areas as needing significant improvement in order to pass probation. 3 areas as improving but not quite there and just 1 area as up to scratch. This was quite a shock as I hadn't been given this impression at any stage.

    Rather than throw my toys out of my pram I have worked extremely hard to give him what he wants but I honestly feel like I am being pushed out as no matter what I do it doesn't seem to be good enough, despite the fact I am working beyond the level of others of my grade who are still in central government and even received feedback stating as much when I met with my mentor from another government department. I am essentially being asked to justify my job to our new director with a proposal for what I will do next year but am beginning to think it is futile and rather than dedicate my energy to trying to impress my boss who seems like he will just pick holes whatever I do I am starting to think I should put my energy into getting out and back into central government.

    If they do fail my probation will I be entitled to redundancy based on the fact it was a promotion and I have 3.5 years continuous service with the civil service?

    My biggest concern is only having a month to find a job with no financial cushion...there aren't a great deal of jobs being advertised at the moment in my profession...

    Thanks.
Page 1
    • lincroft1710
    • By lincroft1710 11th Mar 17, 4:38 PM
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    lincroft1710
    • #2
    • 11th Mar 17, 4:38 PM
    • #2
    • 11th Mar 17, 4:38 PM
    I am starting to think I should put my energy into getting out and back into central government.

    If they do fail my probation will I be entitled to redundancy based on the fact it was a promotion and I have 3.5 years continuous service with the civil service?

    My biggest concern is only having a month to find a job with no financial cushion...there aren't a great deal of jobs being advertised at the moment in my profession...

    Thanks.
    Originally posted by ryanm8655
    If you fail your probation because of incapability, there is no question of redundancy. An individual doesn't become redundant, a job does.

    From past experience of the CS, you may find it difficult to rejoin another CS department if you failed your probation. The procedure used to be regrading to a lower grade, if you were to be retained.
    • ryanm8655
    • By ryanm8655 12th Mar 17, 7:06 PM
    • 56 Posts
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    ryanm8655
    • #3
    • 12th Mar 17, 7:06 PM
    • #3
    • 12th Mar 17, 7:06 PM
    Thanks for the reply. I transferred from another government department on promotion.

    Given I could have taken voluntary redundancy about 4 months ago, is it not a bit sketchy to then be giving me my notice and getting rid of my for free?

    Tbh I don't think I am being treated fairly and personally think they are pushing me out effectively. I would seek legal advice but I'm not sure that I can do much as I've not been there long enough (unless my service with civil service counts)...

    Thanks.
    • Guest101
    • By Guest101 13th Mar 17, 11:07 AM
    • 14,477 Posts
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    Guest101
    • #4
    • 13th Mar 17, 11:07 AM
    • #4
    • 13th Mar 17, 11:07 AM
    Are you a member of a union?
    • lincroft1710
    • By lincroft1710 13th Mar 17, 6:17 PM
    • 9,409 Posts
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    lincroft1710
    • #5
    • 13th Mar 17, 6:17 PM
    • #5
    • 13th Mar 17, 6:17 PM
    Thanks for the reply. I transferred from another government department on promotion.

    Given I could have taken voluntary redundancy about 4 months ago, is it not a bit sketchy to then be giving me my notice and getting rid of my for free?

    There is no such thing as voluntary redundancy. As I previously said jobs are redundant, not people, they probably offered voluntary early severance, but you chose not to take it. These schemes usually have a time limit. As you have received 4 months pay since then and are still employed, and given you have only 3.5 years service, this is probably more than you would have received with early severance.

    Tbh I don't think I am being treated fairly and personally think they are pushing me out effectively. I would seek legal advice but I'm not sure that I can do much as I've not been there long enough (unless my service with civil service counts)...

    If you are failing to meet the requirements of the job, they are perfectly entitled to dispense with your services, nothing unfair about it.

    Thanks.
    Originally posted by ryanm8655
    You will either pass your probation or you won't. Civil Service departments usually follow all the correct procedures when dismissing an employee, so if you are dismissed it will be for a good reason.
    • getmore4less
    • By getmore4less 13th Mar 17, 7:54 PM
    • 29,129 Posts
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    getmore4less
    • #6
    • 13th Mar 17, 7:54 PM
    • #6
    • 13th Mar 17, 7:54 PM
    Having to apply for jobs and ending up on probation is a stitch up.

    in redundancy situations any retention should be potentially suitable alternatives with trial periods preserving the redundancy(even if it is your old job as they have decided it is suitable).
    • ryanm8655
    • By ryanm8655 15th Mar 17, 3:12 PM
    • 56 Posts
    • 8 Thanks
    ryanm8655
    • #7
    • 15th Mar 17, 3:12 PM
    • #7
    • 15th Mar 17, 3:12 PM
    Well the director seems to be on my side, gave me fantastic feedback on some work I presented to the board and made a point of calling me to say so and then emailed my boss.

    I've been advised that if you are offered a job during a consultation period and then that role doesn't work out (I.e. You fail probation) then you should be entitled to compensation in line with what you would have got had you chosen not to take the role. Have consulted HR - am not a member of a union...with the number of strikes there have been here of late I would barely have been paid if I was...
    • lincroft1710
    • By lincroft1710 15th Mar 17, 4:26 PM
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    lincroft1710
    • #8
    • 15th Mar 17, 4:26 PM
    • #8
    • 15th Mar 17, 4:26 PM
    Which government department has been suffering from major strike action recently?

    I am getting confused. Are you saying that your first job in the CS became redundant and that you were officially informed you may be considered for a redundancy payment but you were also offered and accepted a promotion and transfer to another government department.
    • ryanm8655
    • By ryanm8655 15th Mar 17, 9:14 PM
    • 56 Posts
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    ryanm8655
    • #9
    • 15th Mar 17, 9:14 PM
    • #9
    • 15th Mar 17, 9:14 PM
    No. I joined on a slight promotion (SEO from HEO but was on the fast stream previously). Had Probation but 1 month in I had to reapply as did everyone else that worked there. Had the whole chat with my director/hr saying I could take redundancy if I didn't want to apply. Essentially rather than make specific people redundant the unions wanted everyone to have the opportunity to apply.

    I applied and got my job...but probation was extended. My director has left and now it's down to my boss...

    On the plus side I have had 3 different directors praise my work in the past few days, in front of my boss...
    Last edited by ryanm8655; 15-03-2017 at 9:17 PM.
    • lincroft1710
    • By lincroft1710 16th Mar 17, 4:36 PM
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    lincroft1710
    12 years ago due to a change of governmental policy, the govt dept I worked for, found itself overstaffed. Those on short term contracts were terminated immediately. Those under 50 yrs old with a certain minimum length of service were offered voluntary early severance, those over 50 also with a specified length of service (from memory different from VES requirement) were offered voluntary early retirement. In the office location I worked, both schemes were oversubscribed. I think the offers were fairly generous.

    Being over 50 I opted for VER and had a fairly generous lump sum and received an enhanced pension equivalent to what I would have received had I remained until I was 60 (then the youngest age at which you could receive CS pension). I thought it was a good deal to be paid half my salary for not working!

    You will see from the above how they actually avoided redundancies.

    From your post it seems that you were promoted, changed govt dept but only 1 month later the dept decides it has a surplus of SEOs. If there were not enough jobs for all the SEOs then this would be a genuine redundancy situation. Despite what was said, you could not have taken or been offered "voluntary redundancy". After due process your employment would have been terminated under redundancy terms or if it was available a VES scheme. Do you know under what terms any SEOs left the dept?

    Luckily your application to retain your job was successful. As you were in your current job before the "redundancy" situation was announced, i can't see that if you fail your probation you would qualify for redundancy terms.
    • ryanm8655
    • By ryanm8655 16th Mar 17, 4:42 PM
    • 56 Posts
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    ryanm8655
    It isn't the same job. Job title and description changed slightly to fit the new structure, though it was essentially the same job.

    They also halved the number of directors, and got rid of EOs.
    • lincroft1710
    • By lincroft1710 16th Mar 17, 5:12 PM
    • 9,409 Posts
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    lincroft1710
    How many months did you spend as SEO in the "old" job and how many in the "new"?
    • ryanm8655
    • By ryanm8655 16th Mar 17, 5:19 PM
    • 56 Posts
    • 8 Thanks
    ryanm8655
    Not sure when I officially changed to new structure, but my previous service was carried forward for the purposes of redundancy.

    Off the top of my head about 3 months in old role and 3 months in new.

    Had I chosen to leave I was told by both HR and director I could leave and get 1 months pay for each year of service plus notice.

    As I understand it it is to stop businesses assigning people to new roles and then getting rid without having to compensate.
    • lincroft1710
    • By lincroft1710 16th Mar 17, 5:54 PM
    • 9,409 Posts
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    lincroft1710
    So even if you fail probation you will have spent more time in the new role. If redundancy occurs and a person takes a new position which doesn't work out then redundancy terms may apply. But your problem is that you will have spent more time in the "new" role, which also could be argued from your description is little different from the original.

    The people who left, on what terms did they leave, redundancy, VES, VER?
    • ryanm8655
    • By ryanm8655 16th Mar 17, 7:00 PM
    • 56 Posts
    • 8 Thanks
    ryanm8655
    Thanks for the reply.

    In the first instance some people left via voluntary redundancy, some took early retirement, and not too long ago the remainder who weren't successful in getting a role in the new model were made redundant.
    • lincroft1710
    • By lincroft1710 16th Mar 17, 8:25 PM
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    lincroft1710
    It is voluntary early severance, as I keep telling you, voluntary redundancy does not exist.

    All these people going and you being retained says to me that someone somewhere must have belief in you. You have to prove to them you are worth retaining and you're probably trying very hard. Concentrate on delivering what your bosses want and have belief in yourself.
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