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  • FIRST POST
    • Baileyborough
    • By Baileyborough 10th Mar 17, 7:16 PM
    • 36Posts
    • 2Thanks
    Baileyborough
    End of Tenancy Question
    • #1
    • 10th Mar 17, 7:16 PM
    End of Tenancy Question 10th Mar 17 at 7:16 PM
    Hi guys,

    I'm having a bit of an issue with my landlord at the moment. Not the most surprising turn of events, but still.

    Last year, our landlord told us our flat was going up for sale. We decided it might be a sign to leave London, but put up with the viewing etc.

    In Jan, I emailed LL to say the we "plan to move home to Ireland" (my exact wording in the email). Told LL to expect "proper" notice closer to the date etc. LL replies thanking us for notification etc, we're good tenants, no problems etc. A few days later, letting agent calls confirming we're not renewing etc, and will draw up required paper.

    Fast forward to this week. We're getting ready to start packing, planning on leaving start of April. LL emails asking how our move is going etc, are we still leaving, no rush, and flat is no longer up for sale so if we want to stay etc, that's fine.

    Reply, telling LL we're still going, leaving start of April, and can we arrange a final inspection etc.

    LL emails saying we haven't done a formal 2 month notice etc. I'm dubious about this sudden change of tone, so I forward on the initial email.

    The crux of the situation is now that I'm being told by LL that my initial email's wording of "planning" to leave, isn't definite enough, and we didn't give the required 2 month's notice. Our take is that the reactions to our initial email imply sufficient acknowledgement of notice, despite my stupid oversight to not send that second email.


    I'm just concerned that I'm at risk of being backed into a corner for another month's rent that I don't really have (and if I'm being less generous, because LL cannot sell property).


    Situation is muddied by Letting agent telling me verbally that 2 month's notice is only required as a break clause, not as end of lease etc.



    So, apologies for the long wall of text, but what are people's takes on this? Am I massively in the wrong? Or am I at risk of being taken for a ride?

    C
Page 1
    • G_M
    • By G_M 10th Mar 17, 7:35 PM
    • 38,455 Posts
    • 43,545 Thanks
    G_M
    • #2
    • 10th Mar 17, 7:35 PM
    • #2
    • 10th Mar 17, 7:35 PM
    Well from what you write, you do not seem to have served notice have you?

    I emailed LL to say the we "plan to move home to Ireland" (my exact wording in the email). Told LL to expect "proper" notice closer to the date etc.
    Notice not yet served.

    letting agent calls confirming we're not renewing etc, and will draw up required paper.
    You have still not served notice. The landlord has not served a S21 Notice. This appears to be an acknowlegement that no new fixed term contract is to be signed. Not sure what "required paper" means. Do you know?

    this week. ......
    Reply, telling LL we're still going, leaving start of April, and can we arrange a final inspection etc.
    This could constitute serving notice.

    1) Please quote
    a) the exact words you used, in full, and
    b) the exact date this was sent, and
    c) whether your tenancy agreement permits serving notice by email

    For clarification please tell us
    2) the exact date your tenancy started
    3) the length of the original fixed term (if any)
    4) whether that original fixed term (if any) was renewed, and if so on what date and for how long
    5) whether you are still in a fixed term, and on what date it will end
    6) if all fixed terms have ended, what did the original tenancy agreement say would happen thereafter? Exact words please

    The situation depends on whether :
    * you are still in a fixed term (and when it will end)
    * whether you have a Contractual Periodic Tenancy (and what dates it runs to/from)
    * whether you have a Statutory Periodic Tenancy (and what dates it runs to/from)

    For a fuller explanation, read

    * Ending/renewing an AST: what happens when a fixed term ends? How can a LL or tenant end a tenancy? What is a periodic tenancy?
    Last edited by G_M; 10-03-2017 at 7:42 PM.
    • Baileyborough
    • By Baileyborough 10th Mar 17, 7:46 PM
    • 36 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    Baileyborough
    • #3
    • 10th Mar 17, 7:46 PM
    • #3
    • 10th Mar 17, 7:46 PM
    1) Please quote the exact words you used, in full.
    Initial Email (January7th):

    Hi [LL],
    At the end of our current lease, [Wife] and I plan to move home to Ireland.
    You may get an email or two from Irish estate agents looking for landlord references, we'd really appreciate it if you could assist with these.
    I will send on a formal end of tenancy notification closer to the time (in accordance with letting agreement).
    Thank you in advance for your help, we have loved making this house our home, will treasure the memories we have made here, and are sad to leave.
    Kind regards,
    C

    Recent email (March 9th).

    Hi [LL],
    Thanks for your email, I was going to get in touch myself in the next few days.
    Regarding my previous email, we are still moving to Ireland at the end of our tenancy. Currently, our planned move out date is 1st of April.
    We were hoping to arrange a final inspection with yourself the week before (ideally the 27th, 28th or 29th)?
    Thank you again for having us as tenants.
    All the best,
    C


    2) the exact date your tenancy started
    Our tenancy originally began on 5th April, 2012.

    3) the length of the original fixed term (if any)
    Original fixed term was 2 years.

    4) whether that original fixed term (if any) was renewed, and if so on what date and for how long
    The original fixed term was extended for a year on 5th April, 2014, again on 2015 and again 2016.

    5) whether you are still in a fixed term, and on what date it will end
    Currently still in the fixed term, which will end 4th April, 2017.



    Thank you for any advice you might have. This is sounding like it could get quite upsetting.
    • G_M
    • By G_M 10th Mar 17, 7:52 PM
    • 38,455 Posts
    • 43,545 Thanks
    G_M
    • #4
    • 10th Mar 17, 7:52 PM
    • #4
    • 10th Mar 17, 7:52 PM
    Ah well. You're fine.

    You have a fixed term contract from 5th April 2016 to 4th April 2017.

    So on 4/4/17 your contract ends. You can therefore move out on that day (or before!), with your rent paid up till that day (4/4/17) and the tenancy ends.

    No notice is required, except forpoliteness, and to assist with the move-out process(check-out, keys etc).
    • Baileyborough
    • By Baileyborough 10th Mar 17, 7:59 PM
    • 36 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    Baileyborough
    • #5
    • 10th Mar 17, 7:59 PM
    • #5
    • 10th Mar 17, 7:59 PM
    That. Is. Incredible news. Oh my god. You have no idea.

    For the purposes of getting back to LL, is there anywhere I could reference that if I needed to? Also, is it possible an AST would bypass that rule, for some weird reason?

    Thank you again,

    C
    • G_M
    • By G_M 10th Mar 17, 8:08 PM
    • 38,455 Posts
    • 43,545 Thanks
    G_M
    • #6
    • 10th Mar 17, 8:08 PM
    • #6
    • 10th Mar 17, 8:08 PM
    Basic contract law.

    Your contract has a specified end date. When that date comes, the contract ends. That's why it has an end date!

    Notice is only required if

    1) the contract has no end date, ie it is periodic (rolling), or

    2) ending it early (before the end date) utilising a Break Clause in the contract
    • Baileyborough
    • By Baileyborough 10th Mar 17, 8:38 PM
    • 36 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    Baileyborough
    • #7
    • 10th Mar 17, 8:38 PM
    • #7
    • 10th Mar 17, 8:38 PM
    Thanks again.

    One last question: Looking around, there was a mention that the above rules apply unless the contract specifically says otherwise.

    Looking at it, my AST says this:

    10.1 (a) If the Tenant shall desire to determine the tenancy hereby created at or at any time after
    the end of the first 6 months they shall give the Landlord not less than two months prior
    notice in writing of such desire and shall up to the time of such determination pay the rent
    and observe and perform the agreements and obligations on the Tenant’s part
    hereinbefore reserved and contained then immediately on the expiration of such notice
    the present tenancy and everything herein contained shall cease and be void but without
    prejudice to the rights and remedies of either party against the other in respect of any
    antecedent claim or breach of obligation.
    Sound legit? Or something to bear in mind?
    • G_M
    • By G_M 10th Mar 17, 9:02 PM
    • 38,455 Posts
    • 43,545 Thanks
    G_M
    • #8
    • 10th Mar 17, 9:02 PM
    • #8
    • 10th Mar 17, 9:02 PM
    That is a Break Clause.

    You have a 12 month contract. The Break Clause above allows you to end the tenancy early, ie "at or at any time after the end of the first 6 months", by serving notice.

    It has no impact on the tenancy end date (after 12 months) and is therefore not relevant here.

    (see post 6 point 2 above!)
    • Baileyborough
    • By Baileyborough 10th Mar 17, 9:10 PM
    • 36 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    Baileyborough
    • #9
    • 10th Mar 17, 9:10 PM
    • #9
    • 10th Mar 17, 9:10 PM
    Thanks, I thought it was a break clause, but I think LL is using this as a grounds for needing notice etc.

    I reckon I'll give it a day or so, and get back to her, apologising for forgetting to send that email. Leave it at that. If she starts with me owing her for not sending notice, I'll politely reply with the above. Hopefully it will pan out alright.

    Thank you so much again.
    • dimbo61
    • By dimbo61 11th Mar 17, 9:14 AM
    • 9,294 Posts
    • 5,042 Thanks
    dimbo61
    Look you may have problems so make sure property is cleaned before you leave, take lots of photos.
    Pay gas,electric,water, broadband etc.provide evidence to LL
    Inform council you are moving out and date.provide evidence to LL
    Check the deposit is registered and claim it when you leave.
    Explain clearly to the LL and letting agents that you have a 12 months contract and you are leaving at the end of the contract.
    • ViolaLass
    • By ViolaLass 11th Mar 17, 9:29 AM
    • 4,860 Posts
    • 6,699 Thanks
    ViolaLass
    Look you may have problems so make sure property is cleaned before you leave, take lots of photos. Agreed


    Pay gas,electric,water, broadband etc Obviously, no suggestion they wouldn't.provide evidence to LL Unnecessary, none of the LL's business
    Inform council you are moving out and date Yes.provide evidence to LL Unnecessary.
    Check the deposit is registered and claim it when you leave.
    Explain clearly to the LL and letting agents that you have a 12 months contract and you are leaving at the end of the contract.
    Originally posted by dimbo61
    I like the OP's intent to leave it and see whether the matter comes up again and then politely explain the situation.

    No need to go in guns blazing.
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