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  • FIRST POST
    • Browntoa
    • By Browntoa 10th Mar 17, 12:00 PM
    • 30,901Posts
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    Browntoa
    Increase in Probate fees in the Budget 2017
    • #1
    • 10th Mar 17, 12:00 PM
    Increase in Probate fees in the Budget 2017 10th Mar 17 at 12:00 PM
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4299384/Death-tax-stealth-rake-1-5billion.html


    Currently, families pay the Government a set £215 fee, or £155 if they apply through a solicitor, to get permission for probate – the legal authority to distribute someone’s property, savings and investments after they die.
    But fees are set to rocket in May with new levels ranging from £300 to £20,000 depending on the value of the estate – and will be in addition to inheritance tax. Experts described it as a ‘stealth tax’ which will target the bereaved
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Page 1
    • Yorkshireman99
    • By Yorkshireman99 10th Mar 17, 12:34 PM
    • 2,153 Posts
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    Yorkshireman99
    • #2
    • 10th Mar 17, 12:34 PM
    • #2
    • 10th Mar 17, 12:34 PM
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4299384/Death-tax-stealth-rake-1-5billion.html


    Currently, families pay the Government a set £215 fee, or £155 if they apply through a solicitor, to get permission for probate – the legal authority to distribute someone’s property, savings and investments after they die.
    But fees are set to rocket in May with new levels ranging from £300 to £20,000 depending on the value of the estate – and will be in addition to inheritance tax. Experts described it as a ‘stealth tax’ which will target the bereaved
    Originally posted by Browntoa
    Not all bad though. Estates worth less than £50,000 will no longer pay a fee and these are 58% of the estates.
    • Brighty
    • By Brighty 10th Mar 17, 12:50 PM
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    Brighty
    • #3
    • 10th Mar 17, 12:50 PM
    • #3
    • 10th Mar 17, 12:50 PM
    I wonder if the fee will still apply when whole estate passes to a spouse? So if you live in a £500k house and your partner dies, you need to stump up £4k
    • getmore4less
    • By getmore4less 10th Mar 17, 1:06 PM
    • 28,008 Posts
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    getmore4less
    • #4
    • 10th Mar 17, 1:06 PM
    • #4
    • 10th Mar 17, 1:06 PM
    It's net estate that requires probate so joint assets not included.

    around 250k 1/2 of all estate don't even go to probate.

    less than 20k of the 1/2 million estate each year pay any IHT

    if I could be bothered I could look up the stats for those that leave a spouse.
    • sharoncorn22
    • By sharoncorn22 10th Mar 17, 3:42 PM
    • 1 Posts
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    sharoncorn22
    • #5
    • 10th Mar 17, 3:42 PM
    • #5
    • 10th Mar 17, 3:42 PM
    So, is the 'net' value of the estate, box d on form IHT421 or box 96 on the IHT400?
    • jicms
    • By jicms 11th Mar 17, 11:51 AM
    • 350 Posts
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    jicms
    • #6
    • 11th Mar 17, 11:51 AM
    • #6
    • 11th Mar 17, 11:51 AM
    I can't find any clarity on the May date. When does this kick in, for deaths after May or will it apply to probate already in progress and not completed by May 2017? Does anyone know?
    • jicms
    • By jicms 11th Mar 17, 11:58 AM
    • 350 Posts
    • 35 Thanks
    jicms
    • #7
    • 11th Mar 17, 11:58 AM
    • #7
    • 11th Mar 17, 11:58 AM
    I can't find any clarity on the May date. When does this kick in, for deaths after May or will it apply to probate already in progress and not completed by May 2017? Does anyone know?
    Originally posted by jicms
    I think I've answered my own question. It sounds as if the new charges are for new Grants of Probate applied for after 1 May, so won't apply if it's already been granted.
    • nobody999
    • By nobody999 12th Mar 17, 10:04 AM
    • 2 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    nobody999
    • #8
    • 12th Mar 17, 10:04 AM
    • #8
    • 12th Mar 17, 10:04 AM
    Daily Mail headline was rather alarmist as I've come to expect from them
    As other posters have said this won't actually affect that many estates and at the same time with the change in IHT limits on estates with a main property will mean that most people having to pay the new higher fees will actually benefit from less IHT to pay.

    In addition, with larger estates comes more complexity and I don't see how a government agency can actually pay for the time to check the validity of a large complex estate for the flat £215 fee.

    While nobody wants to pay tax, having to pay more is normally indicative of an underlying financial benefit, ie it's a nice problem to have
    • getmore4less
    • By getmore4less 12th Mar 17, 10:16 AM
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    getmore4less
    • #9
    • 12th Mar 17, 10:16 AM
    • #9
    • 12th Mar 17, 10:16 AM
    Daily Mail headline was rather alarmist as I've come to expect from them
    As other posters have said this won't actually affect that many estates and at the same time with the change in IHT limits on estates with a main property will mean that most people having to pay the new higher fees will actually benefit from less IHT to pay.

    In addition, with larger estates comes more complexity and I don't see how a government agency can actually pay for the time to check the validity of a large complex estate for the flat £215 fee.

    While nobody wants to pay tax, having to pay more is normally indicative of an underlying financial benefit, ie it's a nice problem to have
    Originally posted by nobody999
    They(probate court) don't.

    All they do is check the people that apply to administer the estate are who they say they are and are eligible.

    HMRC are the ones that check the estate and that is only for IHT so they may investigate the more complex stuff if they suspect there is some tax to pay.

    The reality is no one checks estates get administered and distributed "properly" it is currently a voluntary system and has been for a very long time.

    I did comment on this a while back but did not take notes, if you go back far enough the church used to "check" estates.
    • SPBG
    • By SPBG 12th Mar 17, 8:40 PM
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    SPBG
    Probate fee increase
    Why is the media so quiet about the huge increase in probate fees the government is bringing in in May? Is it a tax on the south of England where property prices are so expensive? Just because someone has managed to buy a house doesn't mean they have loads of spare money to pay this unfair and enormous tax. Will the surviving spouse have to sell the family home to pay? It just seems so awful, but there is so little comment about it in the media. Is that how the government hope to get away with this stealth death tax?
    • Yorkshireman99
    • By Yorkshireman99 12th Mar 17, 9:20 PM
    • 2,153 Posts
    • 1,749 Thanks
    Yorkshireman99
    Why is the media so quiet about the huge increase in probate fees the government is bringing in in May? Is it a tax on the south of England where property prices are so expensive? Just because someone has managed to buy a house doesn't mean they have loads of spare money to pay this unfair and enormous tax. Will the surviving spouse have to sell the family home to pay? It just seems so awful, but there is so little comment about it in the media. Is that how the government hope to get away with this stealth death tax?
    Originally posted by SPBG
    It has been widely featured in the press. On an estate of £499,999 the new fee is £785 more than at present or 0.002% of the estate value. Hardly an "enormous tax" is it? Much ado about nothing IMHO.
    Last edited by Yorkshireman99; 12-03-2017 at 10:05 PM.
    • troubleinparadise
    • By troubleinparadise 12th Mar 17, 10:00 PM
    • 926 Posts
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    troubleinparadise
    Why is the media so quiet about the huge increase in probate fees the government is bringing in in May? Is it a tax on the south of England where property prices are so expensive? Just because someone has managed to buy a house doesn't mean they have loads of spare money to pay this unfair and enormous tax. Will the surviving spouse have to sell the family home to pay? It just seems so awful, but there is so little comment about it in the media. Is that how the government hope to get away with this stealth death tax?
    Originally posted by SPBG
    I'm sure that the increase in the probate fee will cause worries, but hopefully raising the funds to pay will not require a house to be sold - some pre-planning before the situation arises will help; from The Telegraph:

    "People concerned about how beneficiaries will pay the probate fees could leave sufficient funds in a life insurance policy, and provided the policy is written in trust, it can be accessed immediately on death, without the need for probate."

    As the maximum fee is to be £20,000 for estates over £2 million, a policy hopefully shouldn't be too expensive.
    • Keep pedalling
    • By Keep pedalling 13th Mar 17, 1:55 AM
    • 2,905 Posts
    • 3,080 Thanks
    Keep pedalling
    Why is the media so quiet about the huge increase in probate fees the government is bringing in in May? Is it a tax on the south of England where property prices are so expensive? Just because someone has managed to buy a house doesn't mean they have loads of spare money to pay this unfair and enormous tax. Will the surviving spouse have to sell the family home to pay? It just seems so awful, but there is so little comment about it in the media. Is that how the government hope to get away with this stealth death tax?
    Originally posted by SPBG
    Not that awful, worse case scenario for our 2 estates would be £12k in probate fees, but that is more than set off with £120k reduction in IHT with the main residence nil rate reaching its maximum in the not too distant future.
    • Flugelhorn
    • By Flugelhorn 13th Mar 17, 5:22 PM
    • 556 Posts
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    Flugelhorn
    ours would be 4-8k on second death - would there be any problem in having a joint account with the executors (the kids) with the money in it for easy access?
    • getmore4less
    • By getmore4less 13th Mar 17, 6:15 PM
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    getmore4less
    ours would be 4-8k on second death - would there be any problem in having a joint account with the executors (the kids) with the money in it for easy access?
    Originally posted by Flugelhorn
    What do you hope to change by doing that?
    • hollie.weimeraner
    • By hollie.weimeraner 13th Mar 17, 8:02 PM
    • 1,259 Posts
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    hollie.weimeraner
    What do you hope to change by doing that?
    Originally posted by getmore4less
    I imagine the same as a lot of others in that situation, it would alleviate the need for the executors to find the means to pay for probate before they have access to the estate.

    I know my sons currently wouldn't have the funds to pay my probate fees so would need to arrange a loan unless I made arrangements for them (such as access to a joint bank account)
    • Flugelhorn
    • By Flugelhorn 13th Mar 17, 8:11 PM
    • 556 Posts
    • 769 Thanks
    Flugelhorn
    What do you hope to change by doing that?
    Originally posted by getmore4less

    nothing specific changes - at present we have 2 kids at Uni, they are the executors of our wills. Should we both wobble off our perches before they are earning any money they would be in a difficult position in applying for probate etc etc Just pondering on how I could make access to some money to pay for the probate easier for them as presume they could not get at our bank accounts until probate is granted?
    Last edited by Flugelhorn; 13-03-2017 at 8:14 PM.
    • Yorkshireman99
    • By Yorkshireman99 13th Mar 17, 8:21 PM
    • 2,153 Posts
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    Yorkshireman99
    nothing specific changes - at present we have 2 kids at Uni, they are the executors of our wills. Should we both wobble off our perches before they are earning any money they would be in a difficult position in applying for probate etc etc Just pondering on how I could make access to some money to pay for the probate easier for them as presume they could not get at our bank accounts until probate is granted?
    Originally posted by Flugelhorn
    The bank would probably release funds for the probate fees just as they will to pay the funeral costs. You might want to talk to the bank about this now.
    • Flugelhorn
    • By Flugelhorn 13th Mar 17, 8:30 PM
    • 556 Posts
    • 769 Thanks
    Flugelhorn
    The bank would probably release funds for the probate fees just as they will to pay the funeral costs. You might want to talk to the bank about this now.
    Originally posted by Yorkshireman99
    Good point - would be sensible if something like that happened, otherwise some executors (who may well not be beneficiaries) could be out of pocket
    • troubleinparadise
    • By troubleinparadise 13th Mar 17, 11:40 PM
    • 926 Posts
    • 1,533 Thanks
    troubleinparadise
    The bank would probably release funds for the probate fees just as they will to pay the funeral costs. You might want to talk to the bank about this now.
    Originally posted by Yorkshireman99
    The only problem being whether the deceased has enough bank or savings account funds to meet the Probate fee!

    I imagine that once it is realised this will be necessary, people will start making provision for it, however reluctantly...
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