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  • FIRST POST
    • Tim from Brighton
    • By Tim from Brighton 9th Mar 17, 1:04 PM
    • 5Posts
    • 0Thanks
    Tim from Brighton
    Bank fraud
    • #1
    • 9th Mar 17, 1:04 PM
    Bank fraud 9th Mar 17 at 1:04 PM
    Briefly, 2 days ago I booked a hotel room for the first couple of nights of my holiday overseas for £83 online. The hotel has now tried to take an additional £3330 which I did not authorise.

    This money is still in my account but HSBC refuses to stop this payment even though I have not authorised it. They have told me that UK banking regulations guarantee such a payment from my account whether or not it has been authorised by me.

    The bank say they won’t even try to recover this money until they have let the money go out of my account and that I will be out of pocket and overdrawn for at least the next 7 days.

    I now have no money and a large overdraft and HSBC have advised me to use my savings in the meantime. I am due to go on holiday on Sunday, but because I am now overdrawn by thousands, I may not be able to go.

    So, it seems that someone is about to steal money from me and the bank is going to stand by and let them, leaving all the problems with me. How can this be right or fair?
Page 2
    • Tim from Brighton
    • By Tim from Brighton 10th Mar 17, 11:27 AM
    • 5 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    Tim from Brighton
    Thanks for the helpful responses. As far as the less helpful or just plain ignorant ones go, well that's life!
    • robatwork
    • By robatwork 10th Mar 17, 8:14 PM
    • 3,873 Posts
    • 4,195 Thanks
    robatwork
    Reread your original post.

    Only the first line was fully true. After that it all went a bit Tolkien.
    • Jhoney
    • By Jhoney 14th Mar 17, 1:10 PM
    • 1,190 Posts
    • 793 Thanks
    Jhoney
    Thanks Jhoney. Indeed it has highlighted a problem with my banking expectations - I expect my bank not to make payments to third parties that I haven't authorised and when requested to stop a payment before it leaves my account, to do so. Is that so unreasonable?
    Originally posted by Tim from Brighton
    1. They haven't
    2. You did
    3. They cannot - see point 1
    4. They do not - see Ts and Cs
    5. Yes it is unreasonable
    Far from trying to be unhelpful. I thought it was a good eye opener as to how we view things when it is us on the other side of the issue. If you were either the bank or the hotel would it still seem such a bad way to conduct/protect ones business?


    I think not, but perhaps i'm alone/in the minority by having that opinion.
    • Chalkius
    • By Chalkius 14th Mar 17, 3:36 PM
    • 73 Posts
    • 27 Thanks
    Chalkius
    I'd tend to agree.

    It's not fraud, it's a company the OP has given his bank details to voluntarily.

    And if it's anything like my main bank, the money will currently be in pending/outstanding. And it's not so much a case of the bank not wanting to do anything, they can't. They might be able to take it out of pending but if the company claims the funds it will still go out, and the bank can't claim it back if it's not gone out yet. Try and contact the people the booking was made with and ask them to cancel that pending amount.
    • grumbler
    • By grumbler 14th Mar 17, 3:52 PM
    • 51,388 Posts
    • 21,755 Thanks
    grumbler
    1. ...
    2. You did
    Originally posted by Jhoney
    I don't think so
    They do not - see Ts and Cs
    Any example of T&C allowing a hotel to take/authorise £3K+ when the actual price is 2x£85? Why £3K, not £3M - in case the customer blows up the entire hotel
    Last edited by grumbler; 14-03-2017 at 6:15 PM.
    We are born naked, wet and hungry...Then things get worse.

    .withdrawal, NOT withdrawel ..bear with me, NOT bare with me
    .definitely, NOT definately ......separate, NOT seperate
    should have, NOT should of
    .....guaranteed, NOT guarenteed
    • grumbler
    • By grumbler 14th Mar 17, 3:58 PM
    • 51,388 Posts
    • 21,755 Thanks
    grumbler
    It's not fraud, it's a company the OP has given his bank details to voluntarily.
    Originally posted by Chalkius
    Giving details isn't the same as authorising taking any amount they want.
    And if it's anything like my main bank, the money will currently be in pending/outstanding. And it's not so much a case of the bank not wanting to do anything, they can't.
    They can, they just don't want to.
    They might be able to take it out of pending but if the company claims the funds it will still go out, and the bank can't claim it back if it's not gone out yet. Try and contact the people the booking was made with and ask them to cancel that pending amount.
    And what if the 'people' refuse or don't reply or simply are fraudsters?
    You seem to be under the impression that the bank is at fault here - but in fact it is the originator of the payment that is at fault.
    Originally posted by jonesMUFCforever
    Yes, but the bank can be more helpful.
    You gave them your debit card number did you not?
    I don't understand this point.
    We are born naked, wet and hungry...Then things get worse.

    .withdrawal, NOT withdrawel ..bear with me, NOT bare with me
    .definitely, NOT definately ......separate, NOT seperate
    should have, NOT should of
    .....guaranteed, NOT guarenteed
    • Shakin Steve
    • By Shakin Steve 14th Mar 17, 7:35 PM
    • 879 Posts
    • 635 Thanks
    Shakin Steve
    This point about being overdrawn is a moot one. On your account will be a list of debits or credits and a running balance. However the funds available will show your running balance minus any pending payments or, indeed, money that has been pre authorised. But, if these pre-authorised payments are not claimed, then they will not show on any statement, so you will not be charged any fees.
    Last edited by Shakin Steve; 14-03-2017 at 7:59 PM.
    I came into this world with nothing and I've got most of it left.
    • GingerFurball
    • By GingerFurball 14th Mar 17, 11:24 PM
    • 936 Posts
    • 882 Thanks
    GingerFurball
    Any example of T&C allowing a hotel to take/authorise £3K+ when the actual price is 2x£85? Why £3K, not £3M - in case the customer blows up the entire hotel
    Originally posted by grumbler
    Nothing whatsoever to do with his bank.
    DEBT FREE!

    Debt free by Xmas 2014: £3555.67/£4805.67 (73.99%)
    Debt free by Xmas 2015: £1250/£1250 (100.00%)
    • grumbler
    • By grumbler 15th Mar 17, 7:53 AM
    • 51,388 Posts
    • 21,755 Thanks
    grumbler
    Nothing whatsoever to do with his bank.
    Originally posted by GingerFurball
    And how is this related to the part of my post that you quoted?

    Bank can release the the funds wrongfully authorised by the hotel.
    We are born naked, wet and hungry...Then things get worse.

    .withdrawal, NOT withdrawel ..bear with me, NOT bare with me
    .definitely, NOT definately ......separate, NOT seperate
    should have, NOT should of
    .....guaranteed, NOT guarenteed
    • mt99
    • By mt99 15th Mar 17, 7:58 AM
    • 336 Posts
    • 150 Thanks
    mt99
    This is a well documented issue with debit cards, although not widely known to say the least.

    There are two scenarios:

    1. you buy something with a debit card costing £x - then £x is debited from your account. This amount will be shown on your receipt.

    2. The other scenario happens with hotels, car hire etc etc. They 'reserve' a large amount on your card. This is not actually taken, but will reduce the available balance at your bank. When you check out/return the car they release this reservation and at the same time charge you the final bill. If you are lucky they take the final bill out of the reserved amount - if not, your available balance decreases even more - by the size of the final bill - and a couple of days later the reservation cancellation kicks in and all it well.

    So that is why - as others have said - it is best to use a credit card in these situations
    • MABLE
    • By MABLE 15th Mar 17, 8:25 AM
    • 3,271 Posts
    • 1,744 Thanks
    MABLE
    Briefly, 2 days ago I booked a hotel room for the first couple of nights of my holiday overseas for £83 online. The hotel has now tried to take an additional £3330 which I did not authorise.

    This money is still in my account but HSBC refuses to stop this payment even though I have not authorised it. They have told me that UK banking regulations guarantee such a payment from my account whether or not it has been authorised by me.

    The bank say they won’t even try to recover this money until they have let the money go out of my account and that I will be out of pocket and overdrawn for at least the next 7 days.

    I now have no money and a large overdraft and HSBC have advised me to use my savings in the meantime. I am due to go on holiday on Sunday, but because I am now overdrawn by thousands, I may not be able to go.

    So, it seems that someone is about to steal money from me and the bank is going to stand by and let them, leaving all the problems with me. How can this be right or fair?
    Originally posted by Tim from Brighton
    I know this may sound old fashioned Tim from Brighton but have you actually tried speaking to the hotel concerned rather than wasting a lot of time and energy on this forum.
    • JuicyJesus
    • By JuicyJesus 15th Mar 17, 9:52 AM
    • 2,904 Posts
    • 2,982 Thanks
    JuicyJesus
    And how is this related to the part of my post that you quoted?

    Bank can release the the funds wrongfully authorised by the hotel.
    Originally posted by grumbler
    There's an assumption there that the funds are wrongfully authorised which neither the customer nor the bank can prove.
    urs sinserly,
    ~~joosy jeezus~~
    • Jhoney
    • By Jhoney 15th Mar 17, 1:22 PM
    • 1,190 Posts
    • 793 Thanks
    Jhoney
    I don't think soAny example of T&C allowing a hotel to take/authorise £3K+ when the actual price is 2x£85? Why £3K, not £3M - in case the customer blows up the entire hotel
    Originally posted by grumbler
    There is no need for an example from the Ts and Cs, because the hotel have not requested a payment from the card (authorised to be used to take payment on settlement) and no money has left the account?

    The OP was not familiar enough with the process of the hotel/bank with which he booked/banks in this situation. This could also have happened on a credit card - in terms of inconvenience etc if it was loaded for expenses whilst away or had a similar balance unintended for this purpose, so protection from fraud yes, but not necessarily different in terms of effect on available funds.

    Presumably the last sentence was a humerous throwaway comment grumbler, but as I said, they used a reasonable figure, for reasonable use as they were being....reasonable? Further to which nothing has been withdrawn/requested from the account.



    • grumbler
    • By grumbler 15th Mar 17, 6:10 PM
    • 51,388 Posts
    • 21,755 Thanks
    grumbler
    There's an assumption there that the funds are wrongfully authorised which neither the customer nor the bank can prove.
    Originally posted by JuicyJesus
    It's the company that has to prove, not the customer or the bank.
    We are born naked, wet and hungry...Then things get worse.

    .withdrawal, NOT withdrawel ..bear with me, NOT bare with me
    .definitely, NOT definately ......separate, NOT seperate
    should have, NOT should of
    .....guaranteed, NOT guarenteed
    • grumbler
    • By grumbler 15th Mar 17, 6:16 PM
    • 51,388 Posts
    • 21,755 Thanks
    grumbler
    There is no need for an example from the Ts and Cs, because the hotel have not requested a payment from the card (authorised to be used to take payment on settlement) and no money has left the account?
    Originally posted by Jhoney
    So, are you saying that any company I pay to can authorise whatever amount they want thus essentially blocking my account for any other payments?

    The OP was not familiar enough with the process of the hotel/bank with which he booked/banks in this situation.
    I am familiar enough with the process, but I would never expect a company to authorise £3K+ when the actual amount is £200 - unless the company in question clearly informs me about this before I pay and I agree to proceed.


    We are born naked, wet and hungry...Then things get worse.

    .withdrawal, NOT withdrawel ..bear with me, NOT bare with me
    .definitely, NOT definately ......separate, NOT seperate
    should have, NOT should of
    .....guaranteed, NOT guarenteed
    • Jhoney
    • By Jhoney 15th Mar 17, 6:28 PM
    • 1,190 Posts
    • 793 Thanks
    Jhoney
    So, are you saying that any company I pay to can authorise whatever amount they want thus essentially blocking my account for any other payments?

    I am familiar enough with the process, but I would never expect a company to authorise £3K+ when the actual amount is £200 - unless the company in question clearly informs me about this before I pay and I agree to proceed.


    [/LEFT]
    Originally posted by grumbler
    Yet OP stated there was a mix up in currency - see #6 - hence the inflated charge figure.....

    Note the booking was online so much more likely that details were there to be read prior to booking than an alarmed call from the hotel to advise on details.

    Out of curiosity, I wonder how much the actual cost for 2 nights at the said overseas hotel actually is? £83 sounds a bit exceptional...

    There was a time c.10yrs ago, when they would ring up as little as £1 - life/banking etc has moved on and I would still expect that to have been specific to the hotel/location in question rather than inter/national booking policy.
    Last edited by Jhoney; 16-03-2017 at 9:17 AM.
    • djpailo
    • By djpailo 16th Mar 17, 7:39 PM
    • 355 Posts
    • 118 Thanks
    djpailo
    So that is why - as others have said - it is best to use a credit card in these situations
    Originally posted by mt99
    What happens if you don't have enough available credit on the card?
    • jamie_02
    • By jamie_02 16th Mar 17, 9:21 PM
    • 84 Posts
    • 48 Thanks
    jamie_02
    I'm with Grumbler. I'd be a bit naffed off if I booked a reservation totalling a couple of hundred £s and the hotel 'reserved' themselves a couple of thousand. How much mini bar wine are they expecting me to run off with? It's disproportionate and unfair, and I'd expect a reasonable reserve to be communicated and transacted upon check-in.
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