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  • FIRST POST
    • Morgage Confused
    • By Morgage Confused 8th Mar 17, 9:58 PM
    • 391Posts
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    Morgage Confused
    Tennants in Common, inherited house.
    • #1
    • 8th Mar 17, 9:58 PM
    Tennants in Common, inherited house. 8th Mar 17 at 9:58 PM
    My Dad has inherited part of his deceased parents house as tennants in common with his brother and sister.
    One of the siblings remains in the house as they have done since birth.

    Dad wants his share. Resident sibling wont move. Third sibling remains "neutral".

    Now to avoid sibling conflict is there a sensible situation whereby I (dads son) can purchase my dads share, give him the cash he wants and have an investment in the property myself.

    Rough figures.
    House value £500k

    How on earth do I workout a sensible value bearing in mind I cant rent out the share due to resident sibling and what about any tax implications. Capital gains tax e.t.c.

    Who do I get advice from? What professional?

    Thanks
Page 2
    • Morgage Confused
    • By Morgage Confused 9th Mar 17, 4:57 PM
    • 391 Posts
    • 189 Thanks
    Morgage Confused
    OK as far as I know. Grandad sole owner. Dies intestate 16years ago. House passes to nan(they were married). Nan dies, will leaves house to 3 siblings. The siblings are now "Tenants in common". I have the land registry details. Three names are on the deeds.
    1 year before death nan makes will at solicitors who are also registering the property and sorting out the deeds. Also may I add they are sorting out the grandads intestacy situation 16years after death. This process of first registration and deeds took about 15 months. Nan dies before land registry completion.

    I have the deeds and can look up anything if it helps.
    Last edited by Morgage Confused; 09-03-2017 at 5:16 PM.
    • G_M
    • By G_M 9th Mar 17, 5:04 PM
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    G_M
    Posted by accident
    Originally posted by Morgage Confused
    Click 'edit' and then 'delete'.

    it appears the property was jointly owned by grandad and nan, both of whom died (the latter during the registration process)

    From what LR says, I would have thought Probate would herefore be required as there was no surviving owner to whom ownership passed.

    But if the property IS now registered in the 3 names, it's academic now.

    The options now are as previously outlined.
    • Morgage Confused
    • By Morgage Confused 9th Mar 17, 5:22 PM
    • 391 Posts
    • 189 Thanks
    Morgage Confused
    B: Proprietorship Register
    This register specifies the class of title and
    identifies the owner. It contains any entries that
    affect the right of disposal.
    Title absolute
    1 (18.08.2016) PROPRIETOR: sibling a, sibling b, sibling c of 100 the address, postcode.
    2 (18.08.2016) The value stated as at 18 August 2016 was £500,000.
    3 (18.08.2016) RESTRICTION: No disposition by a sole proprietor of the
    registered estate (except a trust corporation) under which capital
    money arises is to be registered unless authorised by an order of the
    court.
    • getmore4less
    • By getmore4less 9th Mar 17, 5:53 PM
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    getmore4less
    What was the house worth and the assumption of ownership at GD death 16 years ago?

    Need to check what against the spouse inherits intestate in 2001 against estate value.
    • Morgage Confused
    • By Morgage Confused 9th Mar 17, 7:26 PM
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    Morgage Confused
    I believe the estimate was about 150k and I really have no idea of the ownership status.
    • Morgage Confused
    • By Morgage Confused 9th Mar 17, 7:40 PM
    • 391 Posts
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    Morgage Confused
    Can I ask if GD used up any of his nil rate band bearing in mind he was intestate 16 years ago? So in other words does my nan have 650k available or is it less now?

    thanks
    • booksurr
    • By booksurr 10th Mar 17, 2:36 AM
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    booksurr
    Can I ask if GD used up any of his nil rate band bearing in mind he was intestate 16 years ago? So in other words does my nan have 650k available or is it less now?

    thanks
    Originally posted by Morgage Confused
    a very valid question that does need checking, but presumably one that the solicitors will be dealing with since you say
    . Also may I add they are sorting out the granddads intestacy situation 16years after death..
    Originally posted by Morgage Confused
    the potential issue is if GD's estate was more than the intestacy threshold applicable 16 years ago. (I think it may have been 125k at that time, but you'd need to confirm that).

    You say the house was worth 150k then and so if his estate was above the threshold then your parent (and your aunt(s) and uncle(s) if there are any) will have been entitled to a share of the amount over the threshold as the rules then were it went to any surviving children of the deceased once the surviving spouse had taken the "statutory" legacy of the amount up the threshold (125k?). In which case yes part of his nil rate band will have been used up. Remember it is used up as a %, not as a cash sum, so now with the IHT threshold being 325k, if GD had used up for example 10% of his threshold the position now on GM's death would be GM's 325k + remainder of GD's (325 x 90%) = £617,500 not the full 650k
    Last edited by booksurr; 10-03-2017 at 2:46 AM.
    • xylophone
    • By xylophone 10th Mar 17, 11:28 AM
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    xylophone
    http://death-duties.co.uk/content/intestacy

    Grandpa died intestate sixteen years ago - if the value of his estate (including the house) was under £250,000, it should all have passed to Grandma?

    Letters of Administration should have been obtained at that time and the property registered in Grandma's sole name.


    Some fifteen(?) years after Grandpa's death, Grandma saw a solicitor about making her own will and in fact made one?

    The solicitor set about conveying house to Grandma's ownership/first registration but this was still in progress when she died.

    I suppose the legal argument would be that under the rules of intestacy that applied at the time of her husband's death, the house was hers?

    The solicitor has taken the view that this was the case since ownership of the property passed according to her will?

    However if the property did belong to her and passed under her will then probate was required?

    If none of Grandpa's NRB was used, then 100% was available for transfer to grandma.

    http://www.litrg.org.uk/tax-guides/bereavement-and-tax/what-nil-rate-band
    • BBH123
    • By BBH123 10th Mar 17, 11:50 AM
    • 479 Posts
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    BBH123
    Is there any reason why resident sibling has to stay in the house, learning difficulties, addictions, no jobc ever held etc and how old are they ?
    • G_M
    • By G_M 10th Mar 17, 12:04 PM
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    G_M
    I'm certainly no expert, but it seems to me that there may well be outstanding issues from 16 years ago as suggested above as a result of the estate not being managed properly at the time

    * property may not have been rightfully 100% grandma's
    * Inheritance Tax may have been due

    If this all gets opened to scrutiny (eg if the courts and/or HMRC and/or Probate Office get involved) it could stir up a can of very expensive worms.

    All the more reason for the siblings to all start acting as grown-ups and sit down to resolve things between themselves.

    With the property now registered in the 3 names, there would be noneed to stir any of these matters up provided they all act together.
  • Land Registry
    OK as far as I know. Grandad sole owner. Dies intestate 16years ago. House passes to nan(they were married). Nan dies, will leaves house to 3 siblings. The siblings are now "Tenants in common". I have the land registry details. Three names are on the deeds.
    1 year before death nan makes will at solicitors who are also registering the property and sorting out the deeds. Also may I add they are sorting out the grandads intestacy situation 16years after death. This process of first registration and deeds took about 15 months. Nan dies before land registry completion.

    I have the deeds and can look up anything if it helps.
    Originally posted by Morgage Confused
    This can happen as a sole owner is married and dies with house passing to widow. She does nothing as there is no trigger to register unless she wants to be registered as the legal owner. Often people do as managing the deceased's estate includes dealing with the legal ownership of the property but if everything passes to Nan, as his widow, sometimes that is not considered.

    As no will letters of administration are applied for (probate when there is a will)

    Roll on 16 years and application for first registration so when sorting out intestate situation I assume they applied for letters of administration thus enabling Nan to transfer the legal ownership to herself and register it. Logical as she's sorting her own will and including property albeit not registered as the legal owner.

    Sadly she passes away before first registration is completed. Normally we would then need probate/letters of administration for her as this would show a chain of representation from Grandad to Nan to Executor/Administrator. The E/A can then register the beneficiaries in the way described.

    The suggestion is that probate/letters of Administration for Nan were not obtained. From purely a registration perspective whilst unusual there may have been some additional evidence e.g. Will, solicitor's confirmation etc supplied to enable the registration to take place in the way now shown. Especially as she died whilst the registration process was ongoing.

    We are not linked to inheritance tax checks so issues around that and any liability paid/unpaid is not something we would be able to comment on.

    From a legal ownership perspective all 3 of you are now legal owners so any change to that now would require all 3 of you to transfer the ownership either on sale/gift
    Last edited by Land Registry; 11-03-2017 at 11:08 AM.
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    • Red-Squirrel
    • By Red-Squirrel 11th Mar 17, 11:45 AM
    • 1,900 Posts
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    Red-Squirrel
    How is the sibling who lives in the property going to be able to maintain it on their own? This is going to need the "neutral" sibling to realise that it isn't in the interest of the sibling living in the house to stay there on their own. That sibling probably hasn't thought the situation through. What happens when they get old living in a house on their own. They probably think that the other siblings will maintain the house. People don't get to live forever in the same house even if they were born there. Situations change.

    The house needs to be sold and the sibling living in it helped to find accommodation suitable for a single person.
    Originally posted by Cakeguts
    Why would being single preclude the sibling from being able to live in and maintain a house? Lots of us are doing it.

    The reason why he needs to move is because the house has two other owners and one wants their share, nothing to do with his marital status surely?

    Edited: Having read the thread, it seems the sibling has never worked or done any upkeep on the house, but you didn't know that when you wrote the above. For all you knew he could have been making megabucks and keeping nan in luxury!
    Last edited by Red-Squirrel; 11-03-2017 at 11:53 AM.
    • Morgage Confused
    • By Morgage Confused 20th Mar 17, 11:48 AM
    • 391 Posts
    • 189 Thanks
    Morgage Confused
    OK so far there is significant communication breakdown between the siblings with the resident sibling just carrying on as if nothing has happened.
    If my dad gets a solicitor to apply for "an order for sale" can anyone see any pitfalls. Im concerned about the stubborn attitude of resident sibling and any counter claim they might try on such as having lived there since birth e.t.c.
    Resident sibling female retirement age, never worked.
    Dad retired.
    Neutral sibling still working.

    My dad is very stressed over this and is now further worried about solicitor costs. So much so he is considering just leaving the situation as it is and taking no action what so ever.
    Any pointer as to typical solicitor costs seeking an order for sale?

    Thanks
    • G_M
    • By G_M 20th Mar 17, 12:39 PM
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    G_M
    Is the resident sibling aware of the
    OK so far there is significant communication breakdown between the siblings with the resident sibling just carrying on as if nothing has happened.

    ........

    Any pointer as to typical solicitor costs seeking an order for sale?

    Thanks
    Originally posted by Morgage Confused
    Is the resident sibling aware of the others' concerns and needs and just ignoring?

    Is the resident sibling aware of the possibility of legal action, and the costs involved (which will make it harder for her to move)?

    All parties need to sit round the table, with tea & cake, and lay out the options, with the ultimate option being legal action.

    If resident sibling refuses to discuss (eg scoffs the cake and leaves), or after discussion resident sibling still refuses to cooperate, then there remain 2 options:

    1) do nothing and let selfish resident sibling remain for the remaind of her life

    2) go to court

    Solicitors fees will be £100 + per hour and there could e a fair few hours work, especially if residnet sibling contests the action. And court fees on top.

    I imagine if the action were successful, resident sibling could forced to pay legal/court fees, though it seems likely payment would/could not be made, so resident sibling would have a CCJ recoded on their credit file.
    • Morgage Confused
    • By Morgage Confused 20th Mar 17, 8:20 PM
    • 391 Posts
    • 189 Thanks
    Morgage Confused
    Is the resident sibling aware of the others' concerns and needs and just ignoring? YES.

    Is the resident sibling aware of the possibility of legal action, and the costs involved (which will make it harder for her to move)?NO

    Should I approach resident sibling myself and tell her she needs to see a solicitor so she can weigh up her options. I am assuming here a solicitor will tell her she has no chance of keeping the house. I suppose that could backfire if the solicitor wants a payday and offers to fight her case?

    I took dad to see a solicitor who said it could cost anywhere from 5-50k depending on how big a case it becomes. However he said ultimately a judge would definitely making an order for sale but no guarantees of awarding costs to my dad.
    • G_M
    • By G_M 20th Mar 17, 9:11 PM
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    G_M
    .......

    Should I approach resident sibling myself and tell her she needs to see a solicitor so she can weigh up her options........
    Originally posted by Morgage Confused
    Well how you handle a family issue is, of course, up to you. But since you ask:
    All parties need to sit round the table, with tea & cake, and lay out the options, with the ultimate option being legal action.
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