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  • FIRST POST
    • Jack Staveley
    • By Jack Staveley 8th Mar 17, 7:48 PM
    • 9Posts
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    Jack Staveley
    Double whammy for blue badge holder
    • #1
    • 8th Mar 17, 7:48 PM
    Double whammy for blue badge holder 8th Mar 17 at 7:48 PM
    Hi everyone

    I wonder if you can help me please? I was recently hit with two PCNs within a week by UKCPM for parking in a disabled bay without my blue badge being clearly displayed (it was at the side of the windscreen, front quarterlight but had slipped down so only partly visible). This was a private car park at a local college and there are no charges, i.e. non-disabled motorists can park for free in normal bays without having to display any form of ticket or permit. There is therefore the question of raising a discrimination claim against the landowner (who I have politely contacted but they sent me a cut and paste response stating that they have no control over the parking company!)...

    Anyway, no tickets were left on my vehicle so the first I knew was when I received the first PCN in the post a week later. I appealed this (did not admit to being the driver, just sent them a letter explaining I was a BB holder as mentioned above). No response yet but the day after I sent the appeal letter a second PCN letter arrived claiming that I had committed the same offence in the same car park which was accurate.

    So they are asking me to pay a total of £200, reduced to £120 if paid within 14 days. I have even looked at using an appeals company such as Parking Appeals Limited but having read some comments on various forums it all sounds like it could be a bit of a scam. So I am forging ahead trying to go through the appeal myself.

    One final point to make is that the signage at the site is appalling. Yes there are several small white signs but they are attached to tall lighting columns at a height of at least 8 to 10 feet...you have to crane your neck to read them and even the large print is hard to read. As for the small print, forget it!

    Its not about the money for me but the sneaky manner in which these people go about issuing the PCNs (I have never seen any car parking attendants around but they are clearly lurking in the shadows ready to pounce).

    Do I use the appeal template I have pasted below please? Should I add in some comments about me having a valid blue badge? I have a terminal physical condition which makes it very painful for me to walk more than a few meter so I think I have a legitimate case to use the disabled bays.

    Thank you very much in anticipation of some helpful advice...

    Dear {name of IPC member - only IPC members for this version!!!}

    Re PCN number:

    I am the keeper of the vehicle and am aware of your purported 'parking charge'. The driver will not be identified. I require the following information so that I can make an informed decision:

    1. Who is the party that contracted with your company and are the the landowner?
    2. Is your charge based on damages for breach of contract? Answer yes or no.
    3. Please provide photos of the signs that you say were on site, which you contend formed a contract with the driver.
    4. Please provide all photographs taken of this vehicle.
    5. Please provide proof that the timing of any camera or timer used was synchronised with all other cameras and/or systems & machines.

    Do not send debt collector letters and do not add any costs, which would be a thinly-veiled attempt at 'double recovery'. I will not respond to debt collectors and to involve a third party would be a failure to mitigate your costs as well as deliberate and knowing misuse of my data.

    Should you obtain the registered keeper's data from the DVLA without reasonable cause (e.g. if you do not fully comply with the IPC Code of Practice in terms of signage at this site, as seems likely based on my research) please take this as formal notice that I reserve the right to sue your company and the landowner/principal, for a sum not less than £250 for any Data Protection Act breach. Your aggressive business practice and unwarranted threat of court for the ordinary matter of a driver using my car without causing any obstruction nor offence, has caused significant distress to me. I do not give you consent to process data relating to me or this vehicle.

    I deny liability for any sum at all and you must consider this letter a Section 10 Notice under the DPA. You are required to respond within 21 days. I have kept proof of submission of this appeal and look forward to your reply.

    Yours faithfully,
Page 1
    • Redx
    • By Redx 8th Mar 17, 7:54 PM
    • 14,435 Posts
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    Redx
    • #2
    • 8th Mar 17, 7:54 PM
    • #2
    • 8th Mar 17, 7:54 PM
    yes use the IPC template

    although you can add a line about an OCCUPANT of the vehicle having a blue badge, you should not reveal who was driving

    do not give them ammunition to shoot you with

    the EA2010 protects you on private land so you could "go after" the landholder , especially if the PPC tries a court claim (which they have 6 years to do , although it may not matter in your case , sorry to hear those bad tidings)

    an LBC to the landholder may help you , with a copy of the BB but citing the EA2010

    do not reveal who was driving

    appeal once, to the PPC, then IGNORE after that

    do not IGNORE court papers however
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Guys Dad
    • By Guys Dad 8th Mar 17, 7:55 PM
    • 9,880 Posts
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    Guys Dad
    • #3
    • 8th Mar 17, 7:55 PM
    • #3
    • 8th Mar 17, 7:55 PM
    What do tghe photos show?

    Your appeal should state that the BB was on display. It is there job to show it wasn't.
    • Jack Staveley
    • By Jack Staveley 8th Mar 17, 8:00 PM
    • 9 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    Jack Staveley
    • #4
    • 8th Mar 17, 8:00 PM
    • #4
    • 8th Mar 17, 8:00 PM
    Thanks Redx and Guys Dad. First, my condition longer term terminal (if that makes sense!?) so I'm hoping I have more than 6 years to fight these people (but thanks for the sentiment).

    Their photos show the front windscreen on the first PCN and the front and rear windows on the second. They are taken from head on so you cannot see the quarterlights. I have also been up and taken pictures of the signage to show how small they are and also high off the ground...
    • Jack Staveley
    • By Jack Staveley 8th Mar 17, 8:04 PM
    • 9 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    Jack Staveley
    • #5
    • 8th Mar 17, 8:04 PM
    • #5
    • 8th Mar 17, 8:04 PM
    So, to clarify:

    1. I send the appeal template above (but add in that BB belonging to an occupant of the vehicle was on display albeit not visible in the photos).

    2. I wait for their response which I assume will be negative

    3. Consider a separate case under EA2010 against the landowner if the appeal is unsuccessful (what's an LBC please?).

    Is that right?
    • Redx
    • By Redx 8th Mar 17, 8:06 PM
    • 14,435 Posts
    • 18,024 Thanks
    Redx
    • #6
    • 8th Mar 17, 8:06 PM
    • #6
    • 8th Mar 17, 8:06 PM
    yes

    acronyms are explained in that NEWBIES sticky thread

    its an LBC or an MCOL you WOULD deal with once your appeal has been turned down

    a landholder cancellation, in writing , is your best option

    the counter claim is due to the EA2010 issues , against both the landholder and the PPC as well , starting with an LBC
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Jack Staveley
    • By Jack Staveley 8th Mar 17, 8:09 PM
    • 9 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    Jack Staveley
    • #7
    • 8th Mar 17, 8:09 PM
    • #7
    • 8th Mar 17, 8:09 PM
    OK thanks again...will send the appeal and report back. Feeling more confident now that I'm clearly not alone in wanting to take these companies on!
    • Redx
    • By Redx 8th Mar 17, 8:39 PM
    • 14,435 Posts
    • 18,024 Thanks
    Redx
    • #8
    • 8th Mar 17, 8:39 PM
    • #8
    • 8th Mar 17, 8:39 PM
    make sure an extra line is in that appeal about an occupant of the vehicle being a blue badge holder and who qualifies under the EA2010

    you have to give them a chance to cancel it once they are informed at the earliest time , a judge would expect this warning to happen

    if the craziness carries on afterwards, then its time to fightback, especially with an LBC to the landholder, in writing , warning them that they are jointly and severally responsible and those spaces are provided by law and are operated under the EA2010 , so they are not above the law and saying they can do nothing wont wash

    in court, a judge will decide if they are responsible, and you could claim a minimum of £500 and up to say £2500 in damages if they are adjudged to have broken the EA2010

    BUT IN BOTH CASES YOU NEED TO WARN THEM BOTH IN WRITING AND BE PREPARED TO ACCEPT CANCELLATIONS OF THE TWO OR MORE TICKETS in settlement of the matter
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Guys Dad
    • By Guys Dad 8th Mar 17, 8:49 PM
    • 9,880 Posts
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    Guys Dad
    • #9
    • 8th Mar 17, 8:49 PM
    • #9
    • 8th Mar 17, 8:49 PM
    The photos were specifically taken from an angle that did not show the BB on display.
    Last edited by Guys Dad; 09-03-2017 at 9:53 AM.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 8th Mar 17, 10:19 PM
    • 46,949 Posts
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    Coupon-mad
    The photos were specifically taken from an angle that did not show the BB on display.
    Originally posted by Guys Dad
    Typical scammery again.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Half_way
    • By Half_way 8th Mar 17, 10:55 PM
    • 3,593 Posts
    • 5,087 Thanks
    Half_way
    You must get in touch with the college about this, if you can place the blue badge in a similar position to where it slipped and take a few photos from the same angle as the PPC ones and a few showing the BB it may help.

    When supplied with evidence that either the driver or a passenger has a disability (protected characteristic under the Equality act) either with a blue badge, or other evidence if they do not possess a BB, then they should have dropped this, they havent.

    you could try something like this
    To the college:
    Re Parking charge notice issued by your agents UKCPM for parking in a disabled bay without displaying a blue badge.
    I am the registered keeper pf vehicle ________ which at the time was being used by a person with a protected characteristic under the equality act.
    This person has a blue badge, which was on display at the time, however it had slipped down the dashboard slightly.
    Someone acting for UKCPM took a photograph showing the vehicle form an angel which obscured the Blue badge.
    I am supplying you with copy of the blue badge as evidence to show that the person has a protected characteristic as covered by the equality act, and I now require you to cancel the parking charge notice with immediate effect.
    You should also be aware that the Blue badge scheme is not valid on private land, and that not all people who have a protected characteristic for which reasonable adjustments should be made possess a blue badge

    I woould therefore ask of you to instruct your agents UKCPM to cancel the parking charge notice and to take action to ensure that when a person parking in a disabled bay who has a disability/protected characteristic is not penalised when evidence of their disability is provided.

    I look forward to hearing from you with a resolution to these issues, and I will be happy to advise you on how to bring your car parking in line with current UK legislation (Equality act ) and to comply with your own Equal opportunities policy.
    At the moment you are not only putting the Colleges reputation at risk, the college could be on dangerous grounds regarding a claim for a breach of the Equality Act over its discriminatory car parking policy(s)
    From the Plain Language Commission:

    "The BPA has surely become one of the most socially dangerous organisations in the UK"
    • Jack Staveley
    • By Jack Staveley 11th Mar 17, 7:36 PM
    • 9 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    Jack Staveley
    Thanks for all your responses. I have written to the college but got a cut & pasted reply back so they don't seem to care. Will see what UKCPM come back with as have sent the suggested template appeal letters off...and take it from their, possibly pushing the EA2010 with the college at a higher level. Once again, thanks guys.
    • Half_way
    • By Half_way 12th Mar 17, 12:07 AM
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    Half_way
    What did the college say? some times PPCs provide replies for landowners to send out, sometimes the PPCs will reply as if its form the landowner
    From the Plain Language Commission:

    "The BPA has surely become one of the most socially dangerous organisations in the UK"
    • Jack Staveley
    • By Jack Staveley 9th Apr 17, 7:32 AM
    • 9 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    Jack Staveley
    Update
    The college just stated the parking company was responsible and that we would need to deal with them as the college, despite being the landowner could not get involved.

    We finally got a letter back from CPM though dismissing our appeal and stating that they do not have any obligation to provide the information we requested using the recommended letter template.

    They seem keen to draw our attention to a case 'Parking Eye vs Beavis' and they highlight that "The Lords found 6-1 in favour of the parking company". They are arguing that the £100 charge (x 2 due to second offence for which we received the letter shortly after the first one) is reasonable and not extravagant.

    They argue that their signage is clear even though we can barely read the small print from the ground due to the need to look up at the sign (around 8' from the ground) and the tiny size of the text which sets out the rules.

    Finally, they are now telling me to pay the full increased amount of £100 for each of the two offences, not the £60 originally requested. Do they not have to put the timer on hold whilst an appeal is considered?

    So, the question is, do I persist and let them take me to court or should we just pay? Its not really about the money for me but the injustice of the whole situation and the fact that there were no tickets on the windscreen, just letters appearing one after the other without warning. The driver had a right to park in the bay and non-disabled users do not have to pay or display any form of documentation. So there's the discrimination card left to play.

    Grateful for any further advice. Thank you.
    Last edited by Jack Staveley; 09-04-2017 at 7:38 AM.
    • Jack Staveley
    • By Jack Staveley 9th Apr 17, 7:34 AM
    • 9 Posts
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    Jack Staveley
    Not sure if its relevant but the date of posting on CPM's envelope (franked in-house by CPM) is 7 days after the date of their letter and beyond the 28 days they have to respond to an appeal.
    • Guys Dad
    • By Guys Dad 9th Apr 17, 11:12 AM
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    Guys Dad
    Not sure if its relevant but the date of posting on CPM's envelope (franked in-house by CPM) is 7 days after the date of their letter and beyond the 28 days they have to respond to an appeal.
    Originally posted by Jack Staveley

    You are right - it's not relevant.
    • Half_way
    • By Half_way 9th Apr 17, 11:31 AM
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    Half_way
    You need to get back in touch with the college and tell them that in no uncertain terms that they are jointly and severally liable for the actions of their agents, and you expect them to cancel the parking charge notices with immediate effect, and put in place a process and system to ensure that this does not happen again.

    You should also tell the college that their agents are currently issuing you with misleading and possibly fraudulent information regarding a parking case known as Beavis vs Parking eye.

    Also you are formally requesting that the college releases the full and un redacted contract between itself and the parking company under the freedom of information act, together with the following:
    How much money does the college pay the parking company to operate on its land?
    Does the parking company retain all the moneys raised from parking charge notices.
    You should also state that as a publicly funded body, the college can not claim commercial sensitivities/confidentiality as a reason to withhold the above
    From the Plain Language Commission:

    "The BPA has surely become one of the most socially dangerous organisations in the UK"
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 9th Apr 17, 12:11 PM
    • 6,578 Posts
    • 5,521 Thanks
    The Deep
    As a BB holder you are a disabled person under the EA 2010 with protected characteristics. They are required under the law to make reasonable adjustments to take account of your disability.

    Failure so to do could lay the PPC and the landowner open to a claim in the CC for disability discrimination which would cost them ££££s in legal costs and compensation.

    You need to be extremely assertive here, do not be put off by the colleg. Here is a copy of a complaint I made to my Local Council about a PCN they issued while I was displaying a BB in a Residents Only space. Feel free to crib what you need

    This complaint concerns the failure by the Council to make reasonable adjustments to take into account my protected characteristics under the Equality Act 2010. Please note, it is not about the parking penalty, which was improperly issued, and has now been cancelled by the adjudicator.

    I am a disabled person aged 76 who has occasional extreme difficulty walking, (the day in question was such a day), due to an arthritic hip, which is due to be replaced in the summer, I have also had total knee replacements in 2015 and 2016. I hold a current Blue Badge because of my difficulty I walking any distance.

    On the day in question I was experiencing severe pain in walking and was using a crutch. I therefore parked my car a few yards from the entrance to the Royal Berkshire Hospital Diabetes Clinic, where I had an appointment. This was in a Residents' Only bay and I was issued with a PCN.

    I was aware that my Blue Badge did not cover parking in this space, but feel that this was in the nature of a medical emergency as there were no other available spaces nearby where I could legally park, and that the Council are required by law to make reasonable adjustments because of my protected characteristics. Despite two informal and one formal challenge, and the involvement of my M.P. they refused to do so, despite their duty under the Act.

    They informed me that I should have used the nearest legally available space, but for medical reasons I was unable to do so. There were neither double yellow lines nor shared use bays near enough for me to comfortably walk to and from. They were aware of this but ignored it

    I regard R.B.C.'s decision as not only wrong, but wrong for the wrong reasons. Whether the signs were well placed or the space was valid for Blue Badge holders is immaterial, the fact remains that they were trying to penalise me for parking in an empty space which was closest to where I needed to be seems to be an over-riding will to enforce traffic law to the detriment of Human Rights Law.

    Two years ago I had to fight the Council for a Blue Badge which they improperly denied me. I took the matter to the LGO and RBC made a goodwill payment to a charity of my choice. There seems to be a hard nosed predilection to deny disabled people their rights and a distinct lack of compassion.

    If you feel that the Council have not acted in accordance with the EA 2010,and have discriminated against me, by penalising me for being disabled, I would suggest that, as a gesture of goodwill, you donate £100 to Arthritis Research U.K., and I will consider the matter closed. However, if you feel the Council have not acted improperly, please send me a deadlock letter and I will escalate the matter to the L.G.O. and/or the County Court.

    Last edited by The Deep; 09-04-2017 at 12:16 PM.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • Dave_TH
    • By Dave_TH 9th Apr 17, 12:40 PM
    • 175 Posts
    • 166 Thanks
    Dave_TH
    You say no ticket on the car but you recieved a PCN one week later, was this an ANPR site? if not they have accesed your details before the 28 day deadline and as such POFA will not apply. With phots being taken it sound like a non ANPR site, others can assist regardinbg the exact rules.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 9th Apr 17, 6:22 PM
    • 46,949 Posts
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    Coupon-mad
    So, the question is, do I persist and let them take me to court or should we just pay? Its not really about the money for me but the injustice of the whole situation and the fact that there were no tickets on the windscreen, just letters appearing one after the other without warning. The driver had a right to park in the bay and non-disabled users do not have to pay or display any form of documentation. So there's the discrimination card left to play.
    You have just explained why you should continue this fight - a decision we will support and assist with. On this forum we win 99% of forum-assisted defended claims.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

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