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  • FIRST POST
    • LOU7illest
    • By LOU7illest 6th Mar 17, 8:33 AM
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    LOU7illest
    Parking Eye PCN for parking in Mother and baby
    • #1
    • 6th Mar 17, 8:33 AM
    Parking Eye PCN for parking in Mother and baby 6th Mar 17 at 8:33 AM
    Please help I got a windscreen PCN from Parking Eye for parking in a Mother and baby space at an ASDA store. At the time of parking in there I was with my GF who is currently pregnant and only parked in there as she believed it was ok to park there if you're pregnant as well.


    When we returned I had received a ticket when I checked the evidence online the agent only took pictures of the front and rear of my car in the space and the inside driver and passenger seat, they never took any pictures of the inside of the rear of the car and the 2 car seats in the back as I routinely drop the GF and the kids to the store and park in mother and baby when I return to pick them up when they finish.


    Any help appreciated I only have 2 days remaining of the initial 14 day window as someone told me just ignore it as they can't enforce it.
Page 1
    • Redx
    • By Redx 6th Mar 17, 8:53 AM
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    Redx
    • #2
    • 6th Mar 17, 8:53 AM
    • #2
    • 6th Mar 17, 8:53 AM
    do not IGNORE this

    yes it could be enforced in court , so that "someone" is a moron

    PE issue about 25 thousand court claims per annum, read up on the BARRY BEAVIS case, he lost 3 times to 11 judges in 3 courts, get that "someone" (moron) to read up on it too , then come back and say they cannot be enforced

    now read the NEWBIES sticky thread at the top of this forum

    appeal as keeper using the BLUE TEXT template

    none of the circumstances you mentioned will help in any appeal and possibly not in court either, although those spaces are not legal unlike the ones for disabled people which are

    so all the guff you posted is irrelevant to popla or to any judge

    to win an appeal or a court case you would win on legal arguments , so you need to study the NEWBIES sticky thread carefully

    and a landholder complaint is the best way to get this cancelled (online complaint on the main ASDA website and a complaint to the instore manager too) , so try that AS WELL as the online blue text appeal

    do not give away the drivers details
    Last edited by Redx; 06-03-2017 at 8:56 AM.
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 6th Mar 17, 9:00 AM
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    Umkomaas
    • #3
    • 6th Mar 17, 9:00 AM
    • #3
    • 6th Mar 17, 9:00 AM
    This must be a self-ticketing job as PE very, very rarely have any boots on the ground. It will likely be an Asda trolley collector with a smartphone.

    Get into Asda and get the manager (not the CS fob-off frump) to cancel this. But you may have a bit of a struggle because they get very precious about P&C spaces.

    This is in parallel with using the appeal process outlined in post #1 of the NEWBIES sticky.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Half_way
    • By Half_way 6th Mar 17, 9:23 AM
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    Half_way
    • #4
    • 6th Mar 17, 9:23 AM
    • #4
    • 6th Mar 17, 9:23 AM
    as far as I know pregnancy is a protected characteristic under the equalities act.
    From the Plain Language Commission:

    "The BPA has surely become one of the most socially dangerous organisations in the UK"
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 6th Mar 17, 9:42 AM
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    Fruitcake
    • #5
    • 6th Mar 17, 9:42 AM
    • #5
    • 6th Mar 17, 9:42 AM
    By definition, a pregnant woman is a mother and baby. It's also sexual discrimination if that's what the signs actually say.
    Those signs are only a gimmick and serve no purpose, but why can't a father with baby park there?

    Anyway, as well as appealing as already advised, go in store with your GF and ask for the duty manager. Take the kids if they are available as well. In a forceful but polite voice tell them you expect the ticket to be cancelled and ask what sort of customer service they are giving when a pregnant mother is targeted.
    Make sure there are other customers around to witness this disgraceful behaviour.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • LOU7illest
    • By LOU7illest 6th Mar 17, 12:29 PM
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    LOU7illest
    • #6
    • 6th Mar 17, 12:29 PM
    • #6
    • 6th Mar 17, 12:29 PM
    do not IGNORE this

    yes it could be enforced in court , so that "someone" is a moron

    PE issue about 25 thousand court claims per annum, read up on the BARRY BEAVIS case, he lost 3 times to 11 judges in 3 courts, get that "someone" (moron) to read up on it too , then come back and say they cannot be enforced

    now read the NEWBIES sticky thread at the top of this forum

    appeal as keeper using the BLUE TEXT template

    none of the circumstances you mentioned will help in any appeal and possibly not in court either, although those spaces are not legal unlike the ones for disabled people which are

    so all the guff you posted is irrelevant to popla or to any judge

    to win an appeal or a court case you would win on legal arguments , so you need to study the NEWBIES sticky thread carefully

    and a landholder complaint is the best way to get this cancelled (online complaint on the main ASDA website and a complaint to the instore manager too) , so try that AS WELL as the online blue text appeal

    do not give away the drivers details
    Originally posted by Redx

    I Contacted the store they just fobbed me off with the 3rd parties number.


    As for the guff what I was getting at is right to ticket someone for non attendance of children if you park in parent and child and go instore to collect children? As I would think twice about doing that in future
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 6th Mar 17, 12:39 PM
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    Coupon-mad
    • #7
    • 6th Mar 17, 12:39 PM
    • #7
    • 6th Mar 17, 12:39 PM
    Never mind, just get the appeal right (use the template in blue writing in the NEWBIES thread and only choose 'registered keeper' in PE's drop down menu. NOTHING about who was driving!!

    But you could add ''An occupant of the car is pregnant ('with child') which is why the P&C bay was properly used in this instance. I assume that the person issuing the PCN did not realise her condition.''

    Oh, and make sure you DO WAIT will day 26 as this was a windscreen PCN. I have never known PE get it right and issue a postal NTK, when a person appeals online to them after one of their rare windscreen PCNs.

    No NTK then wins it for you as keeper, at POPLA, as long as you don't shoot your toes off in the appeal - NO ADDED WORDS THAT SAY WHO WAS DRIVING. No flowery introduction about you driving and your gf being pregnant (see how I worded it 'an occupant of the car')
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • LOU7illest
    • By LOU7illest 6th Mar 17, 12:45 PM
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    LOU7illest
    • #8
    • 6th Mar 17, 12:45 PM
    • #8
    • 6th Mar 17, 12:45 PM
    @Coupon-mad so don't do anything till 26 days has passed then appeal online?
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 6th Mar 17, 1:08 PM
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    Coupon-mad
    • #9
    • 6th Mar 17, 1:08 PM
    • #9
    • 6th Mar 17, 1:08 PM
    Yep, certainly wait and time it perfectly. I predict PE will forget the NTK even if they reject the appeal.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • LOU7illest
    • By LOU7illest 31st Mar 17, 6:44 AM
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    LOU7illest
    @coupon-mad i appealed online as keeper on the 20th March, i have now received a reply with my popla code but haven't received a NTK in the post yet.

    What do i do now?
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 31st Mar 17, 9:23 AM
    • 39,252 Posts
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    Fruitcake
    @coupon-mad i appealed online as keeper on the 20th March, i have now received a reply with my popla code but haven't received a NTK in the post yet.

    What do i do now?
    Originally posted by LOU7illest
    You appeal to PoPLA just like it tells you to do in the NEWBIES thread that you were asked to read. Use all the template appeal points available to you in post 3 of said NEWBUES.

    What happened when you complained in store as I advised you to do?

    Have you left negative feedback on the ASDA website/social media site?

    Did you tell the person that advised you to ignore this that they were a moron, also as advised. Whoever it was needs seriously educating so that: -

    1) They don't ignore their own PCN if they get one.
    2) They don't tell other people to ignore it. They are gong to lose a lot of friends if they keep on telling people to ignore these scam tickets.
    Last edited by Fruitcake; 31-03-2017 at 9:27 AM.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • LOU7illest
    • By LOU7illest 31st Mar 17, 12:11 PM
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    LOU7illest
    1) I haven't been back to that store since the incident occurred

    2) I phoned to speak to the store manager and they just fobbed me off with parking eyes telephone number which didn't work

    3) The person who advised me was a customer who pulled up next to me when i was removing the ticket from the windscreen

    4) Newbie thread says they have 56 days to send an NTK but but the event happened on the 22nd February so when do i appeal to POPLA?
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 31st Mar 17, 1:43 PM
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    Coupon-mad
    At/after day 56 of course, as long as the rejection letter is dated this week, you are fine.

    You need to start by stating no NTK was issued at all so the keeper can't be held liable, as per other POPLA appeals exactly the same (we get lots like this from UKPC so for wording, you could search 'UKPC POPLA absence of NTK no keeper liability day 56' in the forum 'search this board' box and change/advance the search to ''show posts'' (NOT 'threads').
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 31-03-2017 at 1:47 PM.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • LOU7illest
    • By LOU7illest 19th Apr 17, 1:36 PM
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    • 6 Thanks
    LOU7illest
    Day 56 has arrived and postman has come and gone and still no NTK. Would this be sufficient at POPLA appeal?


    A compliant Notice to Keeper was never served - no Keeper Liability can apply.

    This operator has not fulfilled the 'second condition' for keeper liability as defined in Schedule 4 and as a result, they have no lawful authority to pursue any parking charge from myself, as a registered keeper appellant. There is no discretion on this matter. If Schedule 4 mandatory documents are not served at all, or in time (or if the document omits any prescribed wording) then keeper liability simply does not apply.

    The wording in the Protection of Freedoms Act (POFA) 2012 is as follows:

    ''Right to claim unpaid parking charges from keeper of vehicle:
    4(1) The creditor has the right to recover any unpaid parking charges from the keeper of the vehicle. (2) The right under this paragraph applies only if

    (a) the conditions specified in paragraphs 5, 6*, 11 and 12 (so far as applicable) are met;

    *Conditions that must be met for purposes of paragraph 4:
    6(1) ''The second condition is that the creditor (or a person acting for or on behalf of the creditor)— (a)has given a notice to driver in accordance with paragraph 7, followed by a notice to keeper in accordance with paragraph 8. This is re-iterated further ‘If a notice to driver has been given, any subsequent notice to keeper MUST be given in accordance with paragraph 8.’

    The NTK must have been delivered to the registered keeper’s address within the ‘relevant period’ which is highlighted as a total of 56 days beginning with the day after that on which any notice to driver was given. As this operator has evidently failed to serve a NTK, not only have they chosen to flout the strict requirements set out in PoFA 2012, but they have consequently failed to meet the second condition for keeper liability. Clearly I cannot be held liable to pay this charge as the mandatory series of parking charge documents were not properly given.

    and

    The operator has not shown that the individual who it is pursuing is in fact the driver who may have been potentially liable for the charge

    In cases with a keeper appellant, yet no POFA 'keeper liability' to rely upon, POPLA must first consider whether they are confident that the Assessor knows who the driver is, based on the evidence received. No presumption can be made about liability whatsoever. A vehicle can be driven by any person (with the consent of the owner) as long as the driver is insured. There is no dispute that the driver was entitled to drive the car and I can confirm that they were, but I am exercising my right not to name that person.

    In this case, no other party apart from an evidenced driver can be told to pay. I am the appellant throughout (as I am entitled to be), and as there has been no admission regarding who was driving, and no evidence has been produced, it has been held by POPLA on numerous occasions, that a parking charge cannot be enforced against a keeper without a valid NTK.

    As the keeper of the vehicle, it is my right to choose not to name the driver, yet still not be lawfully held liable if an operator is not using or complying with Schedule 4. This applies regardless of when the first appeal was made and regardless of whether a purported 'NTK' was served or not, because the fact remains I am only appealing as the keeper and ONLY Schedule 4 of the POFA (or evidence of who was driving) can cause a keeper appellant to be deemed to be the liable party.

    The burden of proof rests with the Operator to show that (as an individual) I have personally not complied with terms in place on the land and show that I am personally liable for their parking charge. They cannot.

    Furthermore, the vital matter of full compliance with the POFA was confirmed by parking law expert barrister, Henry Greenslade, the previous POPLA Lead Adjudicator, in 2015:

    Understanding keeper liability
    “There appears to be continuing misunderstanding about Schedule 4. Provided certain conditions are strictly complied with, it provides for recovery of unpaid parking charges from the keeper of the vehicle.

    There is no ‘reasonable presumption’ in law that the registered keeper of a vehicle is the driver. Operators should never suggest anything of the sort. Further, a failure by the recipient of a notice issued under Schedule 4 to name the driver, does not of itself mean that the recipient has accepted that they were the driver at the material time. Unlike, for example, a Notice of Intended Prosecution where details of the driver of a vehicle must be supplied when requested by the police, pursuant to Section 172 of the Road Traffic Act 1988, a keeper sent a Schedule 4 notice has no legal obligation to name the driver. [...] If {POFA 2012 Schedule 4 is} not complied with then keeper liability does not generally pass.''

    Therefore, no lawful right exists to pursue unpaid parking charges from myself as keeper of the vehicle, where an operator cannot transfer the liability for the charge using the POFA
    • DoaM
    • By DoaM 19th Apr 17, 3:00 PM
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    DoaM
    You're banking everything on a single point POPLA appeal? Is that what post #3 of the NEWBIES FAQ advises?
    Diary of a madman
    Walk the line again today
    Entries of confusion
    Dear diary, I'm here to stay
    • surveyor_101
    • By surveyor_101 19th Apr 17, 3:52 PM
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    surveyor_101
    Did you not read the signs?

    They are not mother and baby bays.

    They are clearly displayed in all stores I visit and clearly shows that you should only use parent and child bays if you have young children you requiring some sort of child car seat. Max age 12.

    PE are not going to cancel it you best bet is to go and see your store manager. Or try facebook or twitter for asda and post about it. They seem to cancel tickets mentioned on social media.
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 19th Apr 17, 4:12 PM
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    Fruitcake
    You also need to include the Inadequate Signage point from post 3 of the NEWBIES along with, Not the landowner, and No standing to bring charges in their own name. The Inadequate signage point in the NEWBIES is longer than the whole of your draft appeal above, and you need to include it.

    You also need to state that one of the occupants of the car was a mother and baby and the operator has provided no proof to the contrary.

    Do not rely on the store to cancel this, even though they should, and even though ASDA probably own the car park. They usually do, but don't care about genuine shoppers.

    Do appeal to PoPLA but do not miss the appeal deadline, plus a couple of days. Codes have been found to work for several days after the deadline.
    Last edited by Fruitcake; 19-04-2017 at 4:15 PM.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • Redx
    • By Redx 19th Apr 17, 4:17 PM
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    Redx
    I Contacted the store they just fobbed me off with the 3rd parties number.


    As for the guff what I was getting at is right to ticket someone for non attendance of children if you park in parent and child and go instore to collect children? As I would think twice about doing that in future
    Originally posted by LOU7illest
    I did tell you to also complain online so that their HEAD OFFICE in Leeds deals with it (raise a trouble ticket by complaining on their website)

    you do not appear to have done this

    as for your popla appeal, but every legal argument into it as you can muster, including signage etc

    the NEWBIES sticky thread has plenty of info on what goes into a POPLA appeal
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 19th Apr 17, 4:23 PM
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    Coupon-mad
    Did you not read the signs?

    They are not mother and baby bays.

    They are clearly displayed in all stores I visit and clearly shows that you should only use parent and child bays if you have young children you requiring some sort of child car seat. Max age 12.

    PE are not going to cancel it you best bet is to go and see your store manager. Or try facebook or twitter for asda and post about it. They seem to cancel tickets mentioned on social media.
    Originally posted by surveyor_101
    Please leave the (what looks like) criticism of a pregnant lady out of it - any *normal* customer service ethos would allow her to park there, the problem being that parking firms don't have any such ethos, because they have no consumer customers and make it up as they go along.

    Although I agree that the Store Manager is the best bet to cancel this if tried this week, the POPLA appeal is perfectly winnable on the basis of no keeper liability (PE are useless at remembering to serve a NTK after a rare windscreen PCN).

    Day 56 has arrived and postman has come and gone and still no NTK. Would this be sufficient at POPLA appeal?
    I would never rely on one point - also throw in the usual 'no landowner authority' and 'dodgy signs'. And I would wait if you can for a few more days if your rejection letter was dated the end of March, you should try the Store manager cancellation first. Don't speak to a random CS desk person nor a Duty Manager grabbed off the meat tills or wherever.

    STORE Manager.

    And Head Office/Facebook/Twitter complaint to the retailer first, NOW, if your 31(ish) days isn't up yet.
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 19-04-2017 at 4:25 PM.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Half_way
    • By Half_way 19th Apr 17, 5:38 PM
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    Half_way
    As a pregnant woman you are covered under the Equality act and ASDA are required to make reasonable adjustments.

    While there is no statory requirement for P&C bays, there is for those who fall under the Equality act.

    Parent and child bays are nothing more than a gimmick, and in my opinion they shouldn't be there, as they detract from the value of Disabled access bays, and give people a false sense of entitlement - there have been a few cases on here where someone has received a parking charge/ticket for parking in a disabled spot as there were no P&C bays
    From the Plain Language Commission:

    "The BPA has surely become one of the most socially dangerous organisations in the UK"
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