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    • LGTH
    • By LGTH 26th Feb 17, 12:11 PM
    • 22Posts
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    LGTH
    Claim Form received - no NTK, no LBA received before
    • #1
    • 26th Feb 17, 12:11 PM
    Claim Form received - no NTK, no LBA received before 26th Feb 17 at 12:11 PM
    Hello,

    I have received a Claim form from County Court Business Centre in Northampton on behalf of one of the solicitor companies that is extensively discussed in the forum. I understood I have 14 days + 5 days to pay. For a while I was so petrified, that I did not do anything about it. Now that the deadline is approaching, I am considering to pay. they are asking for approx. £226 which is a considerable amount of money (£150 for parking charges + interest, £25 for court fee, £50 for legal representative's costs).

    This is the first time I have found out I have an outstanding parking charge. There was no NTK and no LBA received. I am a RK but was not the driver. I also have never been to that place where the parking charge was incurred. The driver who got the fine is ignoring/rejecting the calls from me, so I cannot find out what happened there.
    I would be considering to name the driver but it does not seem it is possible at this stage, ie I would have needed to do that when NTK would have been received.

    If I decided to go to court , my problem is that legal terminology is hard to understand while the wording is everything in there.

    I am quite scared (about how this situation would affect my credit rating) so I apologize if the above is not coherent. Could I please get some advise what would be the best option. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
    Last edited by LGTH; 10-03-2017 at 10:41 PM. Reason: irrelevant
Page 1
    • Redx
    • By Redx 26th Feb 17, 2:26 PM
    • 13,977 Posts
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    Redx
    • #2
    • 26th Feb 17, 2:26 PM
    • #2
    • 26th Feb 17, 2:26 PM
    it wont affect your credit rating as long as you either pay IN FULL or if you fight it in court and lose, you pay the judgment set by the court (set by the judge) promptly and IN FULL , usually within 28 days (if a longer payment plan was required , it has to be agreed with the claimant I believe)

    so as long as its paid at the correct time , IN FULL, no CCJ will be issued and your credit rating is unaffected, its finished with , finito , fini

    if you are going to fight it , the newbies sticky thread explains how to do it, although its not easy to get your head around even if you were a native english speaker , its a lot of legal jargon in english

    so a lot to think about but this is not a criminal case, no police , no magistrates , no prison

    its a civil matter for an outstanding invoice , which if you fight you might win and pay nothing , but its more difficult to name the driver at this stage, you are correct
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • LGTH
    • By LGTH 26th Feb 17, 5:59 PM
    • 22 Posts
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    LGTH
    • #3
    • 26th Feb 17, 5:59 PM
    • #3
    • 26th Feb 17, 5:59 PM
    Thank you for your reply.
    Should I contact the Claimant and request them to provide copy of NTK and LBA and any photographic evidence related and proof of delivery of these documents if there is one. Is it legal for them to refuse to provide this or ignore my request?

    Also, is it required to use the legal terminology in the defence? I understood that the defence should be just a skeleton before the 28 days are up. After that you give a "detailed" defence to the Court. Is that correct?
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 26th Feb 17, 6:16 PM
    • 38,898 Posts
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    Fruitcake
    • #4
    • 26th Feb 17, 6:16 PM
    • #4
    • 26th Feb 17, 6:16 PM
    Thank you for your reply.
    Should I contact the Claimant and request them to provide copy of NTK and LBA and any photographic evidence related and proof of delivery of these documents if there is one. Is it legal for them to refuse to provide this or ignore my request?

    Also, is it required to use the legal terminology in the defence? I understood that the defence should be just a skeleton before the 28 days are up. After that you give a "detailed" defence to the Court. Is that correct?
    Originally posted by LGTH
    It won't hurt to ask for a copy of the PCN/NTK, but they may not provide it to you until they submit their witness statement.

    You do not need to use legal jargon, especially if you don' know what it means.
    You will need to refer to court cases and Acts of Parliament that support your case. The Parking-Prankster's blogspot is a good source for the former.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 26th Feb 17, 6:19 PM
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    Coupon-mad
    • #5
    • 26th Feb 17, 6:19 PM
    • #5
    • 26th Feb 17, 6:19 PM
    The Claim is dated 10 Feb and I understood I have 14 days + 5 days to pay which makes the deadline the 28 Feb. For a while I was so petrified, that I did not do anything about it. Now that the deadline is approaching, I am considering to pay.
    Why? You would likely pay less even if you lost. May as well fight it. Sounds encouraging:

    I am a RK but was not the driver. I also have never been to that place where the parking charge was incurred.
    If it's Gladstones copy & adapt a recent Gladstones defence written as keeper/not driver.

    If it's BW Legal, copy & adapt a BW Legal defence that includes no keeper liability/not the driver.

    You should be able to pretty much post a draft here within an hour, copied from another.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • LGTH
    • By LGTH 26th Feb 17, 6:50 PM
    • 22 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    LGTH
    • #6
    • 26th Feb 17, 6:50 PM
    • #6
    • 26th Feb 17, 6:50 PM
    If I were to prove that I was not the driver, would a copy of insurance on the vehicle issued in the driver's name and a car rental agreement (I am an owner and privately rented it ) be a good proof? or would I need something else? Since I do not know if the parking charge was during the day or night, would either a letter from employer or my partner be sufficient/needed at all?
    The fact that the car has been rented, does it change this situation/complicate it perhaps?
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 26th Feb 17, 6:54 PM
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    Coupon-mad
    • #7
    • 26th Feb 17, 6:54 PM
    • #7
    • 26th Feb 17, 6:54 PM
    Depends which PPC. For example in a BW Legal (Excel or VCS) case, ''no keeper liability'' and proof you were not driving should be a winning defence point because until very recently those firms didn't use POFA version PCNs. They work on assuming the keeper was the driver, which a keeper who wasn't driving can certainly rebut.

    But Gladstones issue claims for a hotch-potch of PPCs, some of whom do comply with the POFA enough for a Judge to decide that potentially, a keeper can be held liable.

    Which PPC and which Solicitor? You will get more bespoke advice by telling us.

    The fact that the car has been rented, does it change this situation/complicate it perhaps?
    How did the PPC get your details? Surely the first PCN went to the rental firm, so what happened, did you appeal, has the driver already been identified?
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • LGTH
    • By LGTH 26th Feb 17, 7:44 PM
    • 22 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    LGTH
    • #8
    • 26th Feb 17, 7:44 PM
    • #8
    • 26th Feb 17, 7:44 PM
    What I meant is it is my car - I own it and I am RK. No firm is involved, I have rented out a vehicle to a driver privately. I have received no PCN nor LBA, just a claim form from CCBC in Northampton. I know who the driver is but I presume the Claimant and PPC do not and they obtained my details from DVLA.

    The driver now has returned the car, did not make me aware that he had windscreen ticket issued or if it was through ANPR. since then he is ignoring my calls or dropping them. I could go to his address but as he is traveling with work a lot, I would have to play private detective to catch him.

    The Claimant is Gldstones on behalf of PPM who are with IPC.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 26th Feb 17, 7:53 PM
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    Coupon-mad
    • #9
    • 26th Feb 17, 7:53 PM
    • #9
    • 26th Feb 17, 7:53 PM
    OK, so PPM should have sent a Notice to Keeper ages ago and they will have to show that in evidence, later, and prove POFA compliance in the wording and deadline (and show that on the balance of probabilities it was 'served') if they are to hold a keeper liable who was not driving.

    I would email Gladstones to ask for a copy of the signs on site and the PCN and Notice to Keeper, stating clearly that you were not driving. And you require this information because it was missing previously (i.e. no PCN or LBCCC has been received and as keeper you have been shown no details whatsoever that evidence any PCN let alone a contract with the driver, who was not you).

    Meanwhile, acknowledge the claim within 14 days on MCOL and then show us your defence which has to be filed within 33 days of the claim form date (preferably not leaving it that late!!). Don't wait for Gladstones response, ask for stuff but crack on.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • LGTH
    • By LGTH 26th Feb 17, 8:07 PM
    • 22 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    LGTH
    Thank you. I will get on with it then.
    • LGTH
    • By LGTH 8th Mar 17, 11:25 PM
    • 22 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    LGTH
    Could you please advise on the below defence, I do not have a lot of info about the location and signs, etc. There are so many questions I am not very clear about as well. But perhaps - one step at a time. Does this look any good?
    I am XXXXX, defendant in this matter and deny liability for the entirety of the claim for the following reasons:
    1. It is admitted that the Defendant was the authorised registered keeper of the vehicle in question at the time of the alleged contravention.
    2. The Claimant has no cause of action against the Defendant as the Defendant has not been a driver at the time when the parking charge has been incurred.
    3. The identity of the driver of the vehicle on the date in question has not been ascertained.
    4. The Defendant, as the keeper of the vehicle has no liability unless the Claimant has met the provisions of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 in order to hold the defendant responsible for the driver’s alleged breach. This includes serving a notice to keeper that must meet the strict conditions listed in Schedule 4, Paragraph 8 of the legislation. The Claimant has never served a notice to keeper or letter before claim. If the Claimant produces such a notice with proof of postage the Defendant asks for leave to amend the defence
    5. Since the Defendant has not been a driver at the time of the alleged contravention and has never been to the location of the incident, the Defendant has no information regarding the signage and contract between the Claimant and landowner if the Claimant is an acting agent on the behalf of the landowner. The Defendant has requested the information on signage at via email on XXXX followed by a written letter on XXXX. No reply or confirmation of the receipt has been received yet. If the Claimant provides this information the Defendant asks for leave to amend the defence.
    6. The Particulars of Claim is vague and incompetent as cause of action is not disclosed:
    a) The Claimant has stated that a parking charge was incurred for breaching parking terms on the land at XXXX which does not adequately describe the basis on which the claim is brought.
    b) It is not clearly stated whether the Claimant claims £150 for the parking charges and/or damages and indemnity costs if applicable.
    c) There is no explanation in the Particulars of Claim how the sum of £150 has been calculated.
    7. The Defendant also disputes that the Claimant has incurred £50 solicitor costs as the Defendant has a reasonable belief that the Claimant has not incurred £50 to pursue an alleged £150 debt.
    8. The maximum sum which may be recovered from the keeper is the amount specified in the notice to keeper. The Defendant has a reasonable belief that the claimed £150 includes additional charges which then fails to comply with Protection of Freedoms Act Schedule 4 Paragraph 4.

    I believe that the facts stated in this Statement of defence dated xxxxx are true.
    • LGTH
    • By LGTH 10th Mar 17, 10:37 PM
    • 22 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    LGTH
    Good evening,

    Could you please advise if the above is any good? Thank you in advance.
    • LGTH
    • By LGTH 11th Mar 17, 6:10 PM
    • 22 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    LGTH
    Could anyone please comment on the above? I understand we are all busy but if anyone has a spare minute, it would be really helpful as my deadline is approaching fast.
    • pappa golf
    • By pappa golf 11th Mar 17, 6:14 PM
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    pappa golf
    What I meant is it is my car - I own it and I am RK. No firm is involved, I have rented out a vehicle to a driver privately. I have received no PCN nor LBA, just a claim form from CCBC in Northampton. I know who the driver is but I presume the Claimant and PPC do not and they obtained my details from DVLA.

    The driver now has returned the car, did not make me aware that he had windscreen ticket issued or if it was through ANPR. since then he is ignoring my calls or dropping them. I could go to his address but as he is traveling with work a lot, I would have to play private detective to catch him.

    The Claimant is Gldstones on behalf of PPM who are with IPC.
    Originally posted by LGTH

    why if you the named person on the V5 , have you never recieved any paperwork, within 14 days or within 29-57 of the incident?
    Have YOU had to walk 500 miles?
    Were you advised to walk 500 more?
    You could be entitled to compensation.
    Call the Pro Claimers NOW.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 12th Mar 17, 6:14 PM
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    Coupon-mad
    Could you please advise on the below defence, I do not have a lot of info about the location and signs, etc. There are so many questions I am not very clear about as well. But perhaps - one step at a time. Does this look any good?
    I am XXXXX, defendant in this matter and deny liability for the entirety of the claim for the following reasons:
    1. It is admitted that the Defendant was the authorised registered keeper of the vehicle in question at the time of the alleged contravention.
    2. The Claimant has no cause of action against the Defendant as the Defendant has not been a driver at the time when the parking charge has been incurred.
    3. The identity of the driver of the vehicle on the date in question has not been ascertained.
    4. The Defendant, as the keeper of the vehicle has no liability unless the Claimant has met the provisions of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 in order to hold the defendant responsible for the driverís alleged breach. This includes serving a notice to keeper that must meet the strict conditions listed in Schedule 4, Paragraph 8 of the legislation. The Claimant has never served a notice to keeper or letter before claim. If the Claimant produces such a notice with proof of postage the Defendant asks for leave to amend the defence
    5. Since the Defendant has not been a driver at the time of the alleged contravention and has never been to the location of the incident, the Defendant has no information regarding the signage and contract between the Claimant and landowner if the Claimant is an acting agent on the behalf of the landowner. The Defendant has requested the information on signage at via email on XXXX followed by a written letter on XXXX. No reply or confirmation of the receipt has been received yet. If the Claimant provides this information the Defendant asks for leave to amend the defence.
    6. The Particulars of Claim is vague and incompetent as cause of action is not disclosed:
    a) The Claimant has stated that a parking charge was incurred for breaching parking terms on the land at XXXX which does not adequately describe the basis on which the claim is brought.
    b) It is not clearly stated whether the Claimant claims £150 for the parking charges and/or damages and indemnity costs if applicable.
    c) There is no explanation in the Particulars of Claim how the sum of £150 has been calculated.
    7. The Defendant also disputes that the Claimant has incurred £50 solicitor costs as the Defendant has a reasonable belief that the Claimant has not incurred £50 to pursue an alleged £150 debt.
    8. The maximum sum which may be recovered from the keeper is the amount specified in the notice to keeper. The Defendant has a reasonable belief that the claimed £150 includes additional charges which then fails to comply with Protection of Freedoms Act Schedule 4 Paragraph 4.

    I believe that the facts stated in this Statement of defence dated xxxxx are true.
    Originally posted by LGTH
    I would add that there is no evidence of a contravention and the claimant is put to strict proof, not just ANPR photos of a car driving in and out which is never evidence of any contravention.

    And that there is no evidence of 'clear and prominent' terms on parking signs with the parking charge itself in large lettering, so the claimant is put to strict proof of this and that the terms as stated on the signs, were breached.

    And add that, in common with most private parking firms, it is believed that this claimant does not own the land in question, so they are put to strict proof of their contract terms describing the level of enforcement, rules, exemptions, grace periods, charges and contraventions as set out by the landowner.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • LGTH
    • By LGTH 12th Mar 17, 7:56 PM
    • 22 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    LGTH
    Thank you Coupon-mad, can I just ask - should I add these suggestions in the paragraphs already outlined or make it like a separate ones?
    • Loadsofchildren123
    • By Loadsofchildren123 12th Mar 17, 8:44 PM
    • 746 Posts
    • 1,209 Thanks
    Loadsofchildren123
    Am I missing something? Why dont you say that you were not the driver,, x was and you had rented the car to x in a private rental agreement dated x and the car was in X's exclusive possession between x and y dates? Rather than just saying the driver hasn't been ascertained.....
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 12th Mar 17, 11:13 PM
    • 45,809 Posts
    • 58,776 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Am I missing something? Why dont you say that you were not the driver,, x was and you had rented the car to x in a private rental agreement dated x and the car was in X's exclusive possession between x and y dates? Rather than just saying the driver hasn't been ascertained.....
    Originally posted by Loadsofchildren123
    True. If a keeper was not the driver, that should be stated at the start.

    should I add these suggestions in the paragraphs already outlined or make it like a separate ones?
    Separate ones, keep them as snappy, numbered bullet points.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • LGTH
    • By LGTH 24th Mar 17, 8:14 PM
    • 22 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    LGTH
    Good evening,

    I have given a skeleton defence now. I have received a form to fill in with main points being:
    - do I want mediation
    - is it ok that it will be a small claims track
    - where I want the hearing and why

    Please could you advise, especially on the last one (I have a feeling that claimant wants a specific location most suitable for them for a good reason).
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 24th Mar 17, 11:54 PM
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    • 58,776 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    No need for advice, this is DQ stage and is already fully covered by bargepole in his post about what happens when, which we encourage defendants to refer to at every stage. Post #2 of the NEWBIES thread.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

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