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  • FIRST POST
    • 007james
    • By 007james 25th Feb 17, 12:57 PM
    • 23Posts
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    007james
    How do I respond to Ombudsman?
    • #1
    • 25th Feb 17, 12:57 PM
    How do I respond to Ombudsman? 25th Feb 17 at 12:57 PM
    I posted this on Vodafone sticky but not sure what a sticky is. Do I get responses from msers?


    Was taken in by the hard sell at the end of Nov 2015 and took out an amazing tariff so good I asked for a second number for my child but not after a long discussion about making sure he could't ever go over the 2Gb data limit. I was told that there would be a cap and he could never go over. I was also told that as the account holder I would get data limit alerts... Fast forward May 2016.

    Shocked to find 2 astronomical bills and when I lookd closely at my bills it appeared my son went over his data allowance. £487.50 taken out of my account. Obviously I called VF immediately who promised to listen in to the Nov 2015 call. No response for a few months until I was told they couldn't listen into the call... Fast forward... I decided to go to Ombudsman as VF offered half the amount but on principle I decided to leave it with Ombudsman as I felt I should be given all the money.

    In the meantime loads of other issues too nuemrous to go into but meant I spent hours and hours on the phone trying to deal with it. Advisers contradicting each other, not knowing company procedures, passing the buck etc.... Nightmare...Finally sorted out by visiting a store!

    Ok back to original complaint... Ombudsman came back and said there is no EVIDENCE that I was told there would be a cap. They say:
    Quote:
    I have reviewed all the information that is available and cannot see any evidence that Vodafone agreed to apply a cap to the usage on the number ending 676. Furthermore, Vodafone advises that its systems were not capable of applying any cap to the service at the time. It is no longer possible to retrieve the call recordings due to the length of time that has passed, Vodafone does not retain recordings for more than 90 days. Ombudsman Services: Communications is an evidence-based organisation; therefore, I must reach a decision using the evidence that is available. I cannot conclude that Vodafone advised the data usage on the number ending 676 would be capped. Additionally, the account notes show that Vodafone sent notifications to the number ending 676 in April 2016 to advise of the high data usage. I must conclude that the data charges are valid.
    I was offered £30 for falsely charging for a data 'gift' and £49 as a goodwill gesture!!!!!!! Plus a letter of apology from Vodafone.

    So where does that leave me. I know what the South African VF rep said to me. The Ombudsman says I have 14 days to respond to the resolution. I need to have more material facts. I didn't record who I spoke to but since June 2016 decided to use the web chat facility for every interaction so that this could never be held against me. The only 2 things I can think of is:
    1. that there was a family cap tariff in Nov 2015 that could have been suggested.
    2. They never texted me alerts as the account holder and only texted my son's phone

    The onus should be on VF to prove they did text me alerts. They have told Ombudsman that:
    Quote:
    Additionally, the account notes show that Vodafone sent notifications to the number ending 676 in April 2016 to advise of the high data usage. I must conclude that the data charges are valid.
    I am the account holder and the rep said I would receive all alerts too.

    Ombudsman say they are evidence based but I'm thinking if VF can't listen into calls then their incompetent staff can say anything and we the custimer have to pay for that. Should there be written notes too? How do we know vodafone sent notifications or is it something they are saying or could make up?

    I need advise asap as 14 days are up in a couple of days. I'm so frustrated and angry that a company's advisors can say what they want to get a sale and then not follow through their promises. It all seems very unfair.

    I need to know how to respond to Ombudsman.

    Thank you in advance.
Page 1
    • Rev
    • By Rev 25th Feb 17, 1:39 PM
    • 2,918 Posts
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    Rev
    • #2
    • 25th Feb 17, 1:39 PM
    • #2
    • 25th Feb 17, 1:39 PM
    From my experience with the ombudsman there's not much you can do.

    I have an issue with Santander. Sent it to the ombudsman after Santander refused the complaint. Ombudsman sided with Santander.


    Santander claim to have sent me numerous letters. I asked the ombudsman what proof they gave that they sent these letters. He said he had a copy of them. I asked if I claimed to have sent them letters would I have needed proof of delivery or would sending him a copy of the letters with a date on be enough proof. He said I'd need proof of delivery. I asked why Santander didn't. His rely was that that's how it works. Says it all really. I called to dispute it. Claimed I had evidence Santander have lied continually and those lies have cost me roughly 2k. The ombudsman said, and I quote 'that's irrelevant and quite petty'.


    The service is hardly unbiased as companies you're complaining against don't need to prove anything but you do.
    Sigless
    • 007james
    • By 007james 25th Feb 17, 1:54 PM
    • 23 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    007james
    • #3
    • 25th Feb 17, 1:54 PM
    • #3
    • 25th Feb 17, 1:54 PM
    I can't prove that I was in effect missold a service ( capping data) to get the sale. Most people know that vodafone's service has been horrendous although I think they are improving now.

    Vodafone offered me half before Ombudsman decision but didn't tell me that it would be off the table after Ombudsman decision. Can I ask Vodafone to re-offer ? Half is better than nothing as if I go down the route of court it will also be evidence -based.

    Surely I can ask for proof that alerts were sent to both my son and my phone ( 2 numbers, one account). There has to be a way out of this mess otherwise Vodafone advisers will be allowed to say whatever they want with no repercussions.
    • Frozen_up_north
    • By Frozen_up_north 25th Feb 17, 3:04 PM
    • 768 Posts
    • 298 Thanks
    Frozen_up_north
    • #4
    • 25th Feb 17, 3:04 PM
    • #4
    • 25th Feb 17, 3:04 PM
    Er, why didn't you read the terms and conditions before signing 2 x 24 month contracts? Sales people will often offer almost anything in order to make a sale.

    I looked at Vodafone but didn't like the fact they had no facility to limit overspend, it took all of 3 mins of online chat to find out.
    • Rev
    • By Rev 25th Feb 17, 4:16 PM
    • 2,918 Posts
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    Rev
    • #5
    • 25th Feb 17, 4:16 PM
    • #5
    • 25th Feb 17, 4:16 PM
    As far as I can see unless you can prove it there's not much you can do.
    Sigless
    • mobilejunkie
    • By mobilejunkie 25th Feb 17, 5:22 PM
    • 7,227 Posts
    • 2,213 Thanks
    mobilejunkie
    • #6
    • 25th Feb 17, 5:22 PM
    • #6
    • 25th Feb 17, 5:22 PM
    If it's Ombudsman Services you'll get no-where. As for Vodafone, lies and broken promises are the norm.
    • amf
    • By amf 25th Feb 17, 7:20 PM
    • 474 Posts
    • 165 Thanks
    amf
    • #7
    • 25th Feb 17, 7:20 PM
    • #7
    • 25th Feb 17, 7:20 PM
    If it's Ombudsman Services you'll get no-where. As for Vodafone, lies and broken promises are the norm.
    Originally posted by mobilejunkie
    I agree with mobilejunkie. I've had a complaint with Ombudsman's Service Energy regarding British Gas sending a series of incorrect final bills before I moved from them. Ombudsman has said that the final final bill sent by BG is correct over a period of several months, despite a number of obvious errors. They will be sorry to hear that BG now accept that the bill is wrong I've evidence of collusion between the Ombusdman and BG and will be pursuing this strongly.

    The Ombudsman is there to protect the supplier, not the consumer
    • mobilejunkie
    • By mobilejunkie 25th Feb 17, 7:30 PM
    • 7,227 Posts
    • 2,213 Thanks
    mobilejunkie
    • #8
    • 25th Feb 17, 7:30 PM
    • #8
    • 25th Feb 17, 7:30 PM
    You can't really pursue it - Ombudsman Services don't have a complaints proceedure against themselves. I've had two energy complaints with them and one mobile complaint. Each time they have given the companies the benefit of the doubt, accepting whatever they say (regardless of how ludicrous and plainly incorrect it is) and largely ignoring my own information. They are a limited company there to protect their own profit, prevent criticisms of themselves and shield the companies they are supposed to hold to account.

    Unlike CISAS and the FOS who take their roles seriously, they are appalling.
    • boatman
    • By boatman 25th Feb 17, 11:13 PM
    • 3,083 Posts
    • 2,093 Thanks
    boatman
    • #9
    • 25th Feb 17, 11:13 PM
    • #9
    • 25th Feb 17, 11:13 PM
    CISAS were useless for me, couple years ago ee put the prices up, I said I was leaving, ee said no, went to CISAS, they said I had continued to benefit from the service so accepted the changes, joke, I complained to CISAS, how was that accepting!!!
    • mobilejunkie
    • By mobilejunkie 26th Feb 17, 10:58 AM
    • 7,227 Posts
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    mobilejunkie
    Well, in fact I used them for two complaints against ee. Both times ee ignored my formal complaints and as soon as I went to CISAS ee conceded everything, including full compensation. It is possible that it was ee rather than anything CISAS actually did which was then potent, though given their attitude or total disdain up to that point I also conclude they had some respect for the Ombudsman even though they didn't for their customers.
    • d123
    • By d123 26th Feb 17, 11:53 AM
    • 5,987 Posts
    • 3,899 Thanks
    d123
    CISAS were useless for me, couple years ago ee put the prices up, I said I was leaving, ee said no, went to CISAS, they said I had continued to benefit from the service so accepted the changes, joke, I complained to CISAS, how was that accepting!!!
    Originally posted by boatman
    I used CISAS when EE put the prices up around 4 years ago, CISAS found in my favour and allowed early termination, I think I was even awarded some compensation as well iirc.

    I found them professional and easy to deal with, perhaps it's down to how you present your case.
    Dave
    ====
    • PHK
    • By PHK 26th Feb 17, 12:08 PM
    • 12 Posts
    • 8 Thanks
    PHK
    I used CISAS when EE put the prices up around 4 years ago, CISAS found in my favour and allowed early termination, I think I was even awarded some compensation as well iirc.

    I found them professional and easy to deal with, perhaps it's down to how you present your case.
    Originally posted by d123
    I think this is the key. All ADR schemes base their decisions on evidence. In a case where one party says one thing and one another they will decide which is most likely based on who has the most convincing argument.

    If you haven't got clear records or documentation and your argument relies on a sense that you've been wronged, then you'd better be pretty persuasive.



    If
    • mobilejunkie
    • By mobilejunkie 26th Feb 17, 5:49 PM
    • 7,227 Posts
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    mobilejunkie
    I'd believe that if it wasn't for Ombudsman Services (on three separate complaints) accepting whatever the complanee said but not the complainant - apart from ignoring basic glaring facts AND the complainee failing to produce any of the documentation Ombudsman Services asked them for. I am good at presentation and had no such issues in the case of two complaints to CISAS and probably a dozen to the FOS over the years (unlike it's predecessors, which were more like Ombudsman Services until the outcry was too much for the politicians and the FOS was launched instead).
    Last edited by mobilejunkie; 26-02-2017 at 5:53 PM.
    • boatman
    • By boatman 28th Feb 17, 3:37 PM
    • 3,083 Posts
    • 2,093 Thanks
    boatman
    This was the conclusion of my CISAS case(mid contract price rise):

    Decision:
    1. The claim succeeds in part.
    2. I direct that the company shall immediately process the customer’s request to terminate his contract without penalty. Further, the company should provide the customer with his PAC, an apology and compensation of £50.00.

    The customer seeks a refund of monies paid since his cancellation request. I do not see that the company should refund all charges since the request for termination. The customer has had the services available to him during this period and appears toaccept that he has made use of those services during the relevant period. He would have had to pay something, even if he had been released from his contract and transferred his mobile number to an alternative supplier. I have not been provided with anyinformation regarding any other deals he might have done had his terminationrequest been accepted, or savings that he may have been able to achieve from this. I thereforefind that the customer's claim for a refund of monies paid since his cancellation request does not succeed.

    They agreed with me and said i could leave but did not back date to the original claim date.

    To my mind, it has nothing to do with what 'i might have paid', it is to do with Tmobile refusing to release me when they should have done.

    "The customer has had the services available to him during this period and appears to accept". If I put a complaint in to CISAS, how have I accepted?
    Tmobile will not allow me to leave, I have no choice but to continue to use the service until the CISAS case is dealt with!

    .
    Last edited by boatman; 28-02-2017 at 3:52 PM. Reason: ll
    • d123
    • By d123 28th Feb 17, 7:06 PM
    • 5,987 Posts
    • 3,899 Thanks
    d123
    This was the conclusion of my CISAS case(mid contract price rise):

    Decision:
    1. The claim succeeds in part.
    2. I direct that the company shall immediately process the customer’s request to terminate his contract without penalty. Further, the company should provide the customer with his PAC, an apology and compensation of £50.00.

    The customer seeks a refund of monies paid since his cancellation request. I do not see that the company should refund all charges since the request for termination. The customer has had the services available to him during this period and appears toaccept that he has made use of those services during the relevant period. He would have had to pay something, even if he had been released from his contract and transferred his mobile number to an alternative supplier. I have not been provided with anyinformation regarding any other deals he might have done had his terminationrequest been accepted, or savings that he may have been able to achieve from this. I thereforefind that the customer's claim for a refund of monies paid since his cancellation request does not succeed.

    They agreed with me and said i could leave but did not back date to the original claim date.

    To my mind, it has nothing to do with what 'i might have paid', it is to do with Tmobile refusing to release me when they should have done.

    "The customer has had the services available to him during this period and appears to accept". If I put a complaint in to CISAS, how have I accepted?
    Tmobile will not allow me to leave, I have no choice but to continue to use the service until the CISAS case is dealt with!

    .
    Originally posted by boatman
    I see 2 separate issues, did you evidence what other service you might have used? did you submit what it may have cost had you used Three PAYG for the time from notice date to release date?

    Secondly, you should probably have stopped all use of the sim if you were going to try and leave without making any payment from the date you gave the termination notice.
    Dave
    ====
    • boatman
    • By boatman 28th Feb 17, 8:30 PM
    • 3,083 Posts
    • 2,093 Thanks
    boatman
    I see 2 separate issues, did you evidence what other service you might have used? did you submit what it may have cost had you used Three PAYG for the time from notice date to release date?

    Secondly, you should probably have stopped all use of the sim if you were going to try and leave without making any payment from the date you gave the termination notice.
    Originally posted by d123
    I continued paying line rental under protest, but I had to keep and use the phone number.
    To me it is irrelevant what I could have saved, tmobile chose not to let me go, so having lost the case should have paid back what I had paid. They made the choice to force me to go to CISAS and lost, but they lost very little because I didn't get my line rental back for the time I was in dispute.

    To me it was a terrible conclusion, tmobile had nothing to lose, they got their line rental and by the time the result was announced, my contract was complete anyway. They increased the line rental price above RPI and I had to pay it even though CISAS agreed that I should be allowed to leave.
    Last edited by boatman; 28-02-2017 at 8:52 PM. Reason: fgh
    • d123
    • By d123 1st Mar 17, 12:44 PM
    • 5,987 Posts
    • 3,899 Thanks
    d123
    I continued paying line rental under protest, but I had to keep and use the phone number.
    To me it is irrelevant what I could have saved, tmobile chose not to let me go, so having lost the case should have paid back what I had paid. They made the choice to force me to go to CISAS and lost, but they lost very little because I didn't get my line rental back for the time I was in dispute.

    To me it was a terrible conclusion, tmobile had nothing to lose, they got their line rental and by the time the result was announced, my contract was complete anyway. They increased the line rental price above RPI and I had to pay it even though CISAS agreed that I should be allowed to leave.
    Originally posted by boatman
    It's been a while since my CISAS case, but iirc I stopped all usage from the month after T-Mobile refused my termination and I was awarded my line rental back as I made the point that I was using a new network and had made no use of T-Mobile from the date I gave notice (I submitted my itemised bills to show zero usage).

    As I said earlier, their decisions can be quite different, depending on adjudicator and how the evidence is presented.
    Dave
    ====
    • boatman
    • By boatman 1st Mar 17, 9:21 PM
    • 3,083 Posts
    • 2,093 Thanks
    boatman
    It's been a while since my CISAS case, but iirc I stopped all usage from the month after T-Mobile refused my termination and I was awarded my line rental back as I made the point that I was using a new network and had made no use of T-Mobile from the date I gave notice (I submitted my itemised bills to show zero usage).

    As I said earlier, their decisions can be quite different, depending on adjudicator and how the evidence is presented.
    Originally posted by d123
    I'd agree that stopping use of the number is probably a good idea but not always practical if you have a business.
    I think it's fair to say in my case it was a terrible flawed conclusion.
    • 007james
    • By 007james 18th Mar 17, 6:46 PM
    • 23 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    007james
    Haven't looked at this thread for a while as I am OP. It has somehow got off track.

    I have been offered £30 for an error Vodafone made in offering me a 'free' data gift then charging me for it.
    Also £45 compensation and a sorry letter.

    I have until Monday 20th to accept this offer. I do feel that there is collusion between Vodafone and Ombudsman who keep telling me they are evidence based. They have sent me all the records that Vodafone sent them as of course there isn't even mention of the phone contracts (12 months). If it's evidence based, I'd like to see whether they sent me alerts for data as the account holder but I think I might win this in court if I state that I never received a deadlock letter.

    I want to know does a deadlock offer have to be sent in WRITING?
    Last edited by 007james; 18-03-2017 at 6:46 PM. Reason: Typo
    • 007james
    • By 007james 18th Mar 17, 7:30 PM
    • 23 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    007james
    Also does anyone know if it's policy that both handsets should be sent data alerts when there are 2 numbers on one account? They are blaming me for not monitoring the account and ignoring text alerts which of course I didn't receive to my handset.
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