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  • FIRST POST
    • Autolycus2000
    • By Autolycus2000 24th Feb 17, 6:38 AM
    • 66Posts
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    Autolycus2000
    NCP - Should I Try to Pay Retrospectively?
    • #1
    • 24th Feb 17, 6:38 AM
    NCP - Should I Try to Pay Retrospectively? 24th Feb 17 at 6:38 AM
    Hi all,

    Yesterday my car was parked at a London Underground car park managed by NCP. Like most LU car parks this one uses ANPR and you have the option of paying by machine at the car park or using the Dash Parking app on your phone. I think you can also pay by phone call or text message too.

    You can pay anytime up to something like 04:30 am on the day following the parking. So for yesterday's parking the payment could have been made anytime up to 04:30 this morning.

    It has just become apparent that the payment that was attempted yesterday using the Dash app did not go through - presumably due to a poor signal or the app crashing or similar.

    I'm familiar with how the appeal process works as and when a NtK is received and how to take the case to POPLA if required, but I have a question in the meantime:

    Should the driver now phone either NCP or Dash (they have a separate customer services number from NCP) and explain the situation and see if it is possible to pay now for yesterday's parking? Or would doing that make the situation worse - e.g. might it cause NCP to assume I was the driver?

    Thanks in advance.
    Last edited by Autolycus2000; 24-02-2017 at 6:40 AM.
Page 1
    • Redx
    • By Redx 24th Feb 17, 8:04 AM
    • 14,790 Posts
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    Redx
    • #2
    • 24th Feb 17, 8:04 AM
    • #2
    • 24th Feb 17, 8:04 AM
    they dont know who the driver is normally , anybody can pay for parking , doesnt have to be the driver , it could be the keeper and the keeper may not be using the car

    a judge would always expect that an attempt to pay should be made , so the keeper could and should try to pay asap, even if doing so retrospectively , keeping proof of payment

    NCP can assume whatever they like , but the fact remains that in court they would have to either prove who was driving so that a judge is more sure than not , or they would have to invoke POFA2012 if its relevant land , which it may not be

    so just because somebody has an account to pay for parking does not indicate that they are the driver , they could be an agent , a keeper , the mother of the driver , a third party , the employer kindly paying for an employee to park

    they can ASSUME whatever they like , but it wont wash in court , court works on evidence and assumptions have to be backed up by laws and precedents and rulings by other courts or higher courts

    many criminals get off scott free because although police may think or assume that they broke the law , PROVING IT is a different matter, even if all the detectives have ASSUMED the person is guilty or did the offence they wont secure a prosecution

    I would suspect that POFA2012 does not apply here , that bylaws apply instead
    Last edited by Redx; 24-02-2017 at 9:50 AM.
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Autolycus2000
    • By Autolycus2000 24th Feb 17, 8:06 AM
    • 66 Posts
    • 69 Thanks
    Autolycus2000
    • #3
    • 24th Feb 17, 8:06 AM
    • #3
    • 24th Feb 17, 8:06 AM
    Thanks. That's pretty much what I was thinking but nice to have it validated by someone else more experienced! :-)
    I'll give Dash a bell now.....
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 24th Feb 17, 9:48 AM
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    The Deep
    • #4
    • 24th Feb 17, 9:48 AM
    • #4
    • 24th Feb 17, 9:48 AM
    Even if they will not accept late payment over the 'phone, send it anyway by post. They would then struggle to claim that you bilked.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • Autolycus2000
    • By Autolycus2000 27th Feb 17, 7:39 PM
    • 66 Posts
    • 69 Thanks
    Autolycus2000
    • #5
    • 27th Feb 17, 7:39 PM
    • #5
    • 27th Feb 17, 7:39 PM
    Well, that was interesting. I rang Dash on Friday and explained the situation. They seemed to be all set to take the retrospective payment but then told me they could only take payment for two days instead of one because the car was still showing as being in the car park (which was not true).

    They told me to ring NCP who also said the car was showing as being in the car park. They said normally if that happened it would have been reset when payment was made.

    They said they were unable to take payment or that, even if they did, it would be no good as the vehicle registration would already have been passed to the PCN system. They said I'd probably get a PCN but to simply appeal it. Apparently the onus is as much on Dash to prove their system WAS working as it would be on me to prove it wasn't. And so therefore, upon appeal, the PCN would probably be cancelled. Hmmm......

    I also asked them to make sure they updated the system to say the car had left the car park as I didn't want to be getting further PCNs on a daily basis. They said they'd do that and call me back to confirm, but I never heard anything more from them. They also suggested I take a photo of the car with a copy of Friday's newspaper next to it to prove it was elsewhere by that time.

    So it looks like I'll soon be fighting at least one PCN from them.
    Last edited by Autolycus2000; 27-02-2017 at 7:40 PM. Reason: Added some extra info
    • Autolycus2000
    • By Autolycus2000 13th Mar 17, 8:35 AM
    • 66 Posts
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    Autolycus2000
    • #6
    • 13th Mar 17, 8:35 AM
    • #6
    • 13th Mar 17, 8:35 AM
    It's now 18 days since the parking incident referred to above and no NtK has been received. And yet I know from the phone call that NCP definitely had a record of the car being in the car park without payment being made.

    Isn't the NtK supposed to arrive in 15 days?

    My concern now is that they have sent one, it has got lost in the post, and therefore the chance to appeal and get a POPLA code will be lost too.

    Does it sometimes happen that NCP don't bother sending an NtK or do it after 15 days (e.g. if not bothering with POFA)?
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 13th Mar 17, 9:03 AM
    • 13,626 Posts
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    Umkomaas
    • #7
    • 13th Mar 17, 9:03 AM
    • #7
    • 13th Mar 17, 9:03 AM
    If it arrives after 15 days they cannot pursue the keeper - PoFA protects the keeper. That's good news.

    Do you have trouble with your address having lots of letters 'lost in the post'? If you don't, why do you think this is likely to be different?

    There's no pattern as to how some PPCs operate - it's totally unregulated, many have admin systems that can't keep up.

    I wouldn't be too troubled with non-receipt and I certainly wouldn't be phoning NCP - better you go to their website and go through the motions as if you were to be paying your PCN; that will give you an indication how 'live' your case is. Obviously don't press the 'Pay Now' button!
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 13th Mar 17, 11:25 AM
    • 48,302 Posts
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    Coupon-mad
    • #8
    • 13th Mar 17, 11:25 AM
    • #8
    • 13th Mar 17, 11:25 AM
    NCP don't use the POFA anyway so the 14 days isn't relevant to them. But as Umkomaas says, that's good! No keeper liability so do not say who was driving, if a PCN arrives, follow the script for template appeal in the NEWBIES thread.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Autolycus2000
    • By Autolycus2000 15th Mar 17, 10:14 AM
    • 66 Posts
    • 69 Thanks
    Autolycus2000
    • #9
    • 15th Mar 17, 10:14 AM
    • #9
    • 15th Mar 17, 10:14 AM
    Do you have trouble with your address having lots of letters 'lost in the post'? If you don't, why do you think this is likely to be different?
    Originally posted by Umkomaas
    It's quite common for stuff to take a week or two to arrive. Also, other members of the family sometimes empty the postbox when I'm away and then forget to give me the post when I get home!

    I wouldn't be too troubled with non-receipt and I certainly wouldn't be phoning NCP - better you go to their website and go through the motions as if you were to be paying your PCN; that will give you an indication how 'live' your case is. Obviously don't press the 'Pay Now' button!
    Originally posted by Umkomaas
    Sadly you can only search on their site with reg number and PCN number - not just with the reg number.
    • Autolycus2000
    • By Autolycus2000 15th Mar 17, 10:16 AM
    • 66 Posts
    • 69 Thanks
    Autolycus2000
    NCP don't use the POFA anyway so the 14 days isn't relevant to them. But as Umkomaas says, that's good! No keeper liability so do not say who was driving, if a PCN arrives, follow the script for template appeal in the NEWBIES thread.
    Originally posted by Coupon-mad
    So presumably my worst case scenario is that they *have* sent a PCN which I haven't received, meaning I miss the chance to kill it at POPLA, and so then have to fight off the debt collector letters until such time as they give up.

    Meanwhile the six months limit for byelaws offences is ticking away nicely.....
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 15th Mar 17, 3:59 PM
    • 48,302 Posts
    • 61,781 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    have to fight off the debt collector letters
    Well only in that they take up space. Ignore them, as we all do (I have).
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

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