Your browser isn't supported
It looks like you're using an old web browser. To get the most out of the site and to ensure guides display correctly, we suggest upgrading your browser now. Download the latest:

Welcome to the MSE Forums

We're home to a fantastic community of MoneySavers but anyone can post. Please exercise caution & report spam, illegal, offensive or libellous posts/messages: click "report" or email forumteam@.

Search
  • FIRST POST
    • danmc1309
    • By danmc1309 17th Feb 17, 9:01 PM
    • 31Posts
    • 21Thanks
    danmc1309
    Civil Enforcement LTD Hospital Fine
    • #1
    • 17th Feb 17, 9:01 PM
    Civil Enforcement LTD Hospital Fine 17th Feb 17 at 9:01 PM
    Hello all,

    First post here after receiving a letter from Civil Enforcement LTD. I apologise if I've placed this in the wrong section or missed some crucial reading but after spending an hour or so reading the forums I'm feeling a little lost and wondered if my situation warranted an appeal.

    I received a letter this week which states date issued 6th Feb 2017, however the PCN issue date is 26/10/16 and I've received no correspondence until this point.

    Thanks in advance


    hxxp://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e202/Dannymc1309/car%20park%20sign_zpsnjj9pf1t.jpg
    Last edited by danmc1309; 25-02-2017 at 12:35 AM. Reason: photo didn't work
Page 2
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 1st Mar 17, 6:26 PM
    • 45,193 Posts
    • 57,863 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Just added a bit so send that latest edited version. Copy in Mr Dunford again. Don't be concerned about an assertive reply to rattle the BPA's cage, they need it rattled.

    The BPA deserve robust replies - this is awful.

    A while back I used to email complaints to the BPA occasionally and they used to investigate properly and respond far better than the drivel they serve up now. They have gone backwards in recent years, really scraping the barrel with their support of their aggressive, bullyboy membership firms. If it was about parking management we would all have less problem with these charges but this 'industry' shows every day that it is NOT about 'parking management'. These firms exist to empty people's pockets just like clampers did, no better, sometimes worse.

    If this one is not cancelled, take heart that CEL are easy to beat even if they issue a court claim (guess why...because they do not use the POFA!).
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 01-03-2017 at 6:31 PM.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • danmc1309
    • By danmc1309 2nd Mar 17, 4:41 PM
    • 31 Posts
    • 21 Thanks
    danmc1309
    " You;

    david.dunford@dvla.gsi.gov.uk

    Dear xxx,

    Thank you for the additional information you have provided below.


    I am replying to your email on behalf of my colleague Esme as she is not in the office today.

    To enable me to look into this for you, please provide a copy of the Notice to Keeper that you received from the operator.

    To further investigate the matter relating to signage, please provide photographs. Once received we shall be in touch.

    Yours Sincerely,

    {Text removed by MSE Forum Team}
    AOS Investigations Team
    British Parking Association "


    I have the original photo of signage from the initial post, plus the letter which I received from ZZPS but I haven't received anything else other than another letter from ZZPS threatening additional costs. Would I be correct to send signage image and the 1st letter received (I believe this isn't NTK) and explain that this is all I've received?

    Thanks in advance



    Last edited by MSE Andrea; 12-04-2017 at 8:49 AM.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 3rd Mar 17, 12:35 AM
    • 45,193 Posts
    • 57,863 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Forget the signs, just send the first letter PCN (which is the NTK but is non POFA) and the ZZPS letter. Don't send it all 'please and thankyou'. Just a curt (short) email reply telling him you have already attached both letters to Esme so not sure why you are having to jump through even more hoops with this complaint, but here are the offending letters again. Copy in David Dunford AGAIN, even if he has carefully excluded him!
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 03-03-2017 at 12:37 AM.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • danmc1309
    • By danmc1309 3rd Mar 17, 12:50 AM
    • 31 Posts
    • 21 Thanks
    danmc1309
    Forget the signs, just send the first letter PCN (which is the NTK but is non POFA) and the ZZPS letter. Don't send it all 'please and thankyou'. Just a curt (short) email reply telling him you have already attached both letters to Esme so not sure why you are having to jump through even more hoops with this complaint, but here are the offending letters again. Copy in David Dunford AGAIN, even if he has carefully excluded him!
    Originally posted by Coupon-mad
    I don't have a first letter PCN because I didn't receive one, just the ZZPS one dated Feb with the October stated as the offence date (shown in the link below). Our new friend did keep David Dunford on the CC, possibly the formatting on the pasting didn't make this obvious. Will the no PCN letter attachment make a difference before i send the ZZPS one with a similar reply?

    Thanks again

    http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e202/Dannymc1309/car%20park%20letter_zps6aznxmgw.jpg
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 3rd Mar 17, 1:03 PM
    • 45,193 Posts
    • 57,863 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Tell them you never were served with a PCN but it is a fact in the public domain that CEL never use a POFA version, so the complaint stands and here is the offending ZZPS letter lying about keeper liability. What are the BPA and DVLA going to do to stop ZZPS misleading people who don't know the difference and the facts about 'keeper liability' and why did Esme say that CEL issued a NTK 'under the POFA' when it would have taken her just 2 minutes to establish they never do, even if she had had to call CEL to check...
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • danmc1309
    • By danmc1309 3rd Mar 17, 2:49 PM
    • 31 Posts
    • 21 Thanks
    danmc1309
    "Dear {Text removed by MSE Forum Team},

    As originally stated in my email to Esme I didn't receive the original PCN, however it is known in the public domain that CEL never use a POFA version. The ZZPS letter was also originally attached to Esme, however I have attached it again and in addition to the ZZPS email reply (shown below) which was also sent to Esme is it clear that ZZPS are misleading the public about keeper liability at best and at worst outright lying.

    "We are relying on POFA 2012 and as such it is too late to appeal further. You, as the registered keeper of the vehicle remain liable for this charge."

    So as my original complaint referred to I would firstly like to know what the BPA/DVLA are going to do to stop ZZPS misleading people in this way who don't know the difference and facts about 'keeper liability' but then also secondly, why has Esme said that CEL issued a NTK 'under the POFA' when it would have taken her just 2 minutes to establish they never do, even if she had had to call CEL to check?

    Kind regards,"

    Sent, thanks again CM
    Last edited by MSE Andrea; 12-04-2017 at 8:47 AM.
    • danmc1309
    • By danmc1309 3rd Mar 17, 6:15 PM
    • 31 Posts
    • 21 Thanks
    danmc1309
    BPA-xxxx

    Dear Mr xxx,

    Thank you for your reply.

    We have contacted the operator to request further information and once received we shall be in touch.

    Thank you for your patience whilst this is being looked into.

    Yours Sincerely,

    {Text removed by MSE Forum Team}
    AOS Investigations Team
    British Parking Association
    Last edited by MSE Andrea; 12-04-2017 at 8:47 AM.
    • danmc1309
    • By danmc1309 15th Mar 17, 3:24 PM
    • 31 Posts
    • 21 Thanks
    danmc1309
    The plot thickens attached is a photo of the ticket on the car and a information printed on the ticket. I will upload these images later when I have had chance to try and remove information.

    BPA-11034

    Dear Xx,

    Thank you for your patience while we looked into your enquiry.

    We have contacted the operator who have provided us with a copy of the Notice to Driver that was placed on your vehicle, along with an image evidencing the notice on your vehicle (attached).

    On the notice it is stated: “This PCN has been issued under Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012”.

    As the PCN has been issued utilising POFA (2012), there has not been a breach of the Code in this instance. Therefore we are unable to assist you further and will now close this case.

    Yours Sincerely,

    {Text removed by MSE Forum Team}
    AOS Investigations Team
    British Parking Association
    Email: aos@britishparking.co.uk
    Web: www.britishparking.co.uk
    Last edited by MSE Andrea; 12-04-2017 at 8:47 AM.
    • Guys Dad
    • By Guys Dad 15th Mar 17, 5:46 PM
    • 9,866 Posts
    • 8,832 Thanks
    Guys Dad
    Take a look at the POPLA Decisions thread at the top of the forum for post #2575.

    Did CEL use similar wording that lost them the POPLA adjudication in their correspondence with you?
    • danmc1309
    • By danmc1309 15th Mar 17, 7:00 PM
    • 31 Posts
    • 21 Thanks
    danmc1309
    Out at the moment but will look along that line when i return, please see attached photos from them.


    http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e202/Dannymc1309/image%201_zpsinaf84sh.png

    http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e202/Dannymc1309/8848284316%20Photo_zpsg9a21xmu.jpg
    Last edited by danmc1309; 16-03-2017 at 5:59 PM.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 15th Mar 17, 11:31 PM
    • 45,193 Posts
    • 57,863 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    The plot thickens attached is a photo of the ticket on the car and a information printed on the ticket. I will upload these images later when I have had chance to try and remove information.

    BPA-11034

    Dear Xx,

    Thank you for your patience while we looked into your enquiry.

    We have contacted the operator who have provided us with a copy of the Notice to Driver that was placed on your vehicle, along with an image evidencing the notice on your vehicle (attached).

    On the notice it is stated: “This PCN has been issued under Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012”.

    As the PCN has been issued utilising POFA (2012), there has not been a breach of the Code in this instance. Therefore we are unable to assist you further and will now close this case.

    Yours Sincerely,

    {Text removed by MSE Forum Team}
    AOS Investigations Team
    British Parking Association
    Email: aos@britishparking.co.uk
    Web: www.britishparking.co.uk
    Originally posted by danmc1309



    Email to: aos@britishparking.co.uk


    cc: David Dunford, DVLA



    Dear {Text removed by MSE Forum Team},

    Re: PCN xxxxxxx complaint re misleading information about keeper liability

    The case is most certainly not closed. This is embarrassing for the BPA; a terrible example of the BPA fobbing off consumer complainants. All replies are being placed in the public domain, for which I make no apology, also copied to David Duford at the DVLA and I will escalate the matter to the DCLG if the BPS fail to investigate my complaint properly.

    I expect a professional and diligent reply this time, please. I am indeed being patient.

    One would hope that your training on the POFA 2012 Schedule 4, would have told you that a Notice to Driver like that one MUST be followed within 29 - 56 days, by a fully-compliant 'Notice to Keeper' in the post, without which there can be no 'keeper liability'.

    Bear in mind that I am the registered keeper and no PCN was found on the car so the NTK is vital. Please show me the evidence you obtained from your member, of both sides of the resulting NTK. This is the document I was referring to, since I was unaware of any Notice to Driver which cannot, on its own, comply with the POFA. The point being, it is known that CEL do not use the POFA wording at all on their NTKs.

    A random sentence on a ghost ticket purportedly photographed then removed, does not make a keeper liable.

    I look forward to hearing from you with a proper response including a scan of both sides of the Notice to Keeper which I am sure you will note will omit almost the entire wording from paragraph 8, it being a non-POFA version. CEL do not have a POFA version, to my knowledge.

    Finally, my contact was not 'an enquiry'. Kindly log it as a formal complaint, or are the BPA in the business of logging complaints as 'enquiries/closed cases' to dumb down the number of complaints you have to report to the DVLA? This is one.

    kind regards,


    Last edited by MSE Andrea; 12-04-2017 at 8:49 AM.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • danmc1309
    • By danmc1309 16th Mar 17, 7:43 AM
    • 31 Posts
    • 21 Thanks
    danmc1309
    Thanks again Coupon, will reply today.
    • danmc1309
    • By danmc1309 16th Mar 17, 1:18 PM
    • 31 Posts
    • 21 Thanks
    danmc1309
    http://s40.photobucket.com/user/Dannymc1309/media/image%201_zpsdurffvhj.png.html?o=1
    http://s40.photobucket.com/user/Dannymc1309/media/ntk%201_zpsyvg6igtf.jpg.html?o=1
    http://s40.photobucket.com/user/Dannymc1309/media/ntk%202_zps8smhfjw4.jpg.html?o=2

    Dear xxxxx,

    Please find attached a copy of the Notice to Keeper that the operator advise was issued to you on 5thDecember 2016.

    At the bottom of this Notice, it is stated: “It is the driver’s responsibility to pay this PCN, which has been issued under Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012.”

    In this instance, the operator has provided a copy of the Notice to Driver and Notice to Keeper, both of which can be seen to make mention of POFA (2012). The strict timescales as advised in Schedule 4 have been adhered to, as the Notice to Keeper was issued 40 days after the Notice to Driver was left on the vehicle giving the driver 28 days to pay or appeal the charge.

    We note you state that you did not receive the Notice to Keeper. Unfortunately we are unable to ascertain whether mail has or has not been sent or received by either party.As it is not currently a requirement of the Code that the operator sends mail using recorded delivery we cannot advise there to be a breach of the Code.

    As previously advised, based on the information you have provided there has not been a breach of the Code in this instance and therefore we are unable to assist you further.

    Yours Sincerely,

    {Text removed by MSE Forum Team}
    AOS Investigations Team
    British Parking Association
    Email: aos@britishparking.co.uk
    Web: www.britishparking.co.uk

    Last edited by MSE Andrea; 12-04-2017 at 8:50 AM.
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 16th Mar 17, 1:43 PM
    • 38,558 Posts
    • 77,019 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    The PCN number is visible on the NTK.

    Did they send you a picture of the PCN on your car as opposed to something in a bag on a car. I see nothing to prove a PCN was left on a specific vehicle with a unique VRN.

    It is strange how so may NTKs seem to get lost in the post.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • DoaM
    • By DoaM 16th Mar 17, 1:46 PM
    • 2,056 Posts
    • 1,965 Thanks
    DoaM
    If the PPC cannot prove they sent it, they cannot claim that it was sent as they have no evidence. (It doesn't have to be recorded delivery - a certificate of posting from the PO is all that's needed). The intended recipient can validly state it was not received - they don't have to prove it as you cannot prove a negative.
    Last edited by DoaM; 16-03-2017 at 1:58 PM.
    Diary of a madman
    Walk the line again today
    Entries of confusion
    Dear diary, I'm here to stay
    • danmc1309
    • By danmc1309 16th Mar 17, 6:08 PM
    • 31 Posts
    • 21 Thanks
    danmc1309
    The PCN number is visible on the NTK.
    Originally posted by Fruitcake
    I will fix this now, apologies!

    Did they send you a picture of the PCN on your car as opposed to something in a bag on a car. I see nothing to prove a PCN was left on a specific vehicle with a unique VRN. It is strange how so may NTKs seem to get lost in the post.
    Originally posted by Fruitcake
    No they emailed me a photo of a red bag on my car, but as you say nothing to show it stayed there afterwards or as detailed as VRN etc. This is then followed by an NTK which was not received and according to our friend at the BPA they don't have to prove otherwise haha.

    If the PPC cannot prove they sent it, they cannot claim that it was sent as they have no evidence. (It doesn't have to be recorded delivery - a certificate of posting from the PO is all that's needed). The intended recipient can validly state it was not received - they don't have to prove it as you cannot prove a negative.
    Originally posted by DoaM
    My thoughts exactly. If only common sense could prevail?
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 16th Mar 17, 6:40 PM
    • 38,558 Posts
    • 77,019 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    I will fix this now, apologies!


    No they emailed me a photo of a red bag on my car, but as you say nothing to show it stayed there afterwards or as detailed as VRN etc. This is then followed by an NTK which was not received and according to our friend at the BPA they don't have to prove otherwise haha.



    My thoughts exactly. If only common sense could prevail?
    Originally posted by danmc1309
    What I'm getting at is there is no proof that the PCN was left on your car, and there is no evidence to show that is your car in that picture.

    No photos of your VRN means it could have been the scammer's car they took pictures of, or mine, or anyone else's.

    They need to prove your car was in that location at the time of the alleged event, and they haven't.

    It might not actually be your car at all for all we know.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • danmc1309
    • By danmc1309 16th Mar 17, 6:56 PM
    • 31 Posts
    • 21 Thanks
    danmc1309
    What I'm getting at is there is no proof that the PCN was left on your car, and there is no evidence to show that is your car in that picture.
    No photos of your VRN means it could have been the scammer's car they took pictures of, or mine, or anyone else's.
    They need to prove your car was in that location at the time of the alleged event, and they haven't.
    It might not actually be your car at all for all we know.
    Originally posted by Fruitcake
    Good points, they have sent an image of a blue bonnet but no VRN/registration.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 17th Mar 17, 1:17 AM
    • 45,193 Posts
    • 57,863 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    http://s40.photobucket.com/user/Dannymc1309/media/image%201_zpsdurffvhj.png.html?o=1
    http://s40.photobucket.com/user/Dannymc1309/media/ntk%201_zpsyvg6igtf.jpg.html?o=1
    http://s40.photobucket.com/user/Dannymc1309/media/ntk%202_zps8smhfjw4.jpg.html?o=2

    Dear xxxxx,

    Please find attached a copy of the Notice to Keeper that the operator advise was issued to you on 5thDecember 2016.

    At the bottom of this Notice, it is stated: “It is the driver’s responsibility to pay this PCN, which has been issued under Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012.”

    In this instance, the operator has provided a copy of the Notice to Driver and Notice to Keeper, both of which can be seen to make mention of POFA (2012). The strict timescales as advised in Schedule 4 have been adhered to, as the Notice to Keeper was issued 40 days after the Notice to Driver was left on the vehicle giving the driver 28 days to pay or appeal the charge.

    We note you state that you did not receive the Notice to Keeper. Unfortunately we are unable to ascertain whether mail has or has not been sent or received by either party.As it is not currently a requirement of the Code that the operator sends mail using recorded delivery we cannot advise there to be a breach of the Code.

    As previously advised, based on the information you have provided there has not been a breach of the Code in this instance and therefore we are unable to assist you further.

    Yours Sincerely,

    {Text removed by MSE Forum Team}
    AOS Investigations Team
    British Parking Association
    Email: aos@britishparking.co.uk
    Web: www.britishparking.co.uk
    Originally posted by danmc1309


    cc: David Dunford at the DVLA again

    Dear {Text removed by MSE Forum Team},

    Can I get this straight? This beggars belief.

    On behalf of the BPA, officially, are you saying and copying into the DVLA, that you think a NTD followed by a NTK, with one line saying “It is the driver’s responsibility to pay this PCN, which has been issued under Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012” means that this is a POFA PCN? Despite none of the wording from paragraph 8 appearing at all, no statutory warning of keeper liability, etc? Such as 8(2)f to name but one glaring omission.

    We now have the BPA agreeing with the debt collector that keeper liability applies to a (very obviously) non-POFA PCN. That is inexcusable misinformation. If Parliament had wanted to allow keeper liability to apply just by the use of one sentence which 'can be seen to make mention of POFA (2012)' then they would have written just that into the statute and dispensed with all the other wording.

    Have you ever read paragraph 8 of Schedule 4? If not, or if you do not understand the statute, please refer this formal complaint to your manager. I still await a proper response and will copy in the DVLA each time and this entire email trail will be passed on to the DCLG as an example of the 'professionalism' of the BPA.

    Please confirm if your response is the BPA's official and final reply to my complaint. If not, I require that my complaint is escalated to Steve Clark, who I believe does know a non-POFA PCN when he sees one and would not suggest this is one.

    yours sincerely,
    Last edited by MSE Andrea; 12-04-2017 at 8:48 AM.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • danmc1309
    • By danmc1309 17th Mar 17, 12:08 PM
    • 31 Posts
    • 21 Thanks
    danmc1309
    Thanks again Coupon.
Welcome to our new Forum!

Our aim is to save you money quickly and easily. We hope you like it!

Forum Team Contact us

Live Stats

3,753Posts Today

7,435Users online

Martin's Twitter