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    • NewNewMoney
    • By NewNewMoney 16th Feb 17, 4:25 PM
    • 8Posts
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    NewNewMoney
    PCN Appeal Rejected - worth taking further?
    • #1
    • 16th Feb 17, 4:25 PM
    PCN Appeal Rejected - worth taking further? 16th Feb 17 at 4:25 PM
    Hi I'm new to all of this and this adult life in general so any advice would be appreciated.

    I have a day permits to park on a land which I use as and when needed. I stack my dash and just display the new one on top. On one particular day the valid permit blew off the dash. I have received a ticket from this company before Parking and Property Management Ltd and I appealed rather hastily before doing my research (I should have ignored it) so they have my details etc, so I thought no harm in trying again. I've attached the rejection to my appeal to this post at the bottom but as a new user I can't post links (so I've been inventive), and maybe this is me attempting to not give up hope but the part I've highlighted in blue contradicts their reasoning. They've effectively said my permit was valid so how can they justify their ticket?

    the link to the rejection is (without spaces):
    http:// imgur.com / a / ESHK9
    Shall I cut my losses or contact them and highlight this error to try and cancel the ticket?
    Last edited by NewNewMoney; 16-02-2017 at 4:29 PM. Reason: added link
Page 1
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 16th Feb 17, 4:39 PM
    • 6,578 Posts
    • 5,521 Thanks
    The Deep
    • #2
    • 16th Feb 17, 4:39 PM
    • #2
    • 16th Feb 17, 4:39 PM
    A minnow, check them out on the CH website. Also IPC so probably best to ignore unless they are daft enough as to take you to court
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • Redx
    • By Redx 16th Feb 17, 4:42 PM
    • 14,420 Posts
    • 18,001 Thanks
    Redx
    • #3
    • 16th Feb 17, 4:42 PM
    • #3
    • 16th Feb 17, 4:42 PM
    there is no obligation to pay unless a judge says so , in court

    follow the IPC advice in the NEWBIES thread and ignore them unless they try an MCOL within 6 years

    come back if that happens OR if you get an LBC off somebody like GLADSTONES , within 6 years
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 16th Feb 17, 7:16 PM
    • 46,919 Posts
    • 60,256 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #4
    • 16th Feb 17, 7:16 PM
    • #4
    • 16th Feb 17, 7:16 PM
    Shall I cut my losses or contact them and highlight this error to try and cancel the ticket?
    Neither. If they try court they will use Gladstones and we've never lost a defended Gladstones case. As Redx says:

    follow the IPC advice in the NEWBIES thread and ignore them unless they try an MCOL within 6 years
    Defending a small claim is not such a biggie as you would imagine. No CCJ, no huge costs and like I say, Gladstones evidence is generic, unchecked 'robo-claim' drivel and we've never lost one yet.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • NewNewMoney
    • By NewNewMoney 28th Apr 17, 1:22 AM
    • 8 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    NewNewMoney
    • #5
    • 28th Apr 17, 1:22 AM
    • #5
    • 28th Apr 17, 1:22 AM
    Hi all, thanks for the replies.

    I have received a letter from Gladstones solicitors asking me to pay £160 or I could get taken to court and additional costs could increase to £202.25. I'm looking at the letter and it looks pretty shoddy. For a company that wants to be taken seriously and is threatening court action, the presentation of the letter is pretty poor, didn't even bother to capitalise my name and address (but I digress).

    The letter just says the client which is Parking and Property Management, the amount due, my registration and gladstones' reference. There's absolutely no reference to the parking charge.

    What should I do next?
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 28th Apr 17, 7:45 AM
    • 13,142 Posts
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    Umkomaas
    • #6
    • 28th Apr 17, 7:45 AM
    • #6
    • 28th Apr 17, 7:45 AM
    How is the letter headed?

    To whom does Gladstones instruct you to pay the charge?
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • NewNewMoney
    • By NewNewMoney 28th Apr 17, 8:12 AM
    • 8 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    NewNewMoney
    • #7
    • 28th Apr 17, 8:12 AM
    • #7
    • 28th Apr 17, 8:12 AM
    imgur. com/ a/AhEqq

    The letter states I need to pay gladstones in 14 days (dated from April 24th)
    • NewNewMoney
    • By NewNewMoney 28th Apr 17, 8:17 AM
    • 8 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    NewNewMoney
    • #8
    • 28th Apr 17, 8:17 AM
    • #8
    • 28th Apr 17, 8:17 AM
    It's also headed as a final reminder as opposed to an LBC, but the content indicate it as the latter
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 28th Apr 17, 8:30 AM
    • 13,142 Posts
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    Umkomaas
    • #9
    • 28th Apr 17, 8:30 AM
    • #9
    • 28th Apr 17, 8:30 AM
    http://imgur.com/a/AhEqq

    This is still probably at debt collector stage, so you could ignore it and wait for a formal LBC, which should be headed up as such (or similar).

    On the other hand, given that P&PM are currently quite litigious, you are likely to receive court papers in due course, so you could go on the offensive, treat this as a LBC, deny there is any debt owing to their client, invite them to issue court proceedings (they are probably going to do in any case) which you will defend vigorously.

    Help available here if you get a claim. You might want to start preparation by reading NEWBIES FAQ sticky, post #2 which explains the whole court process and what you have to do.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • NewNewMoney
    • By NewNewMoney 28th Apr 17, 11:15 AM
    • 8 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    NewNewMoney
    Thank you for the response - I think I will treat it as an LBC as I've taken a look at their stats and like you said they've become trigger-happy with court action in 2017.

    This is actually the 2nd of 3 PCNs I've received from them. The first one I paid because I was a literal newbie (new driver) and didn't know the difference between council and private tickets. The second (this one) I appealed and now I am taking advice from the forums.

    I received another about two weeks later (all PCNs were received from the same place and I'm about to follow the IPC advice in the newbie thread - I didn't appeal within 28 days like the other two PCNs, I received a letter from PP&M saying payment is overdue and if my understanding is correct I should appeal as the registered keeper not the named driver.

    I was looking at some really useful information on BMPA and in order to prepare for court (possibly two separate legal proceedings) I would need all my documentation in place. Do you think I should do a Subject Access Request (SAR) so that I have everything they essentially "hold" on me?
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 28th Apr 17, 11:20 AM
    • 13,142 Posts
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    Umkomaas
    Do you think I should do a Subject Access Request (SAR) so that I have everything they essentially "hold" on me?
    With potentially 2 court cases, a SAR will be a tenner well spent. They have 41 days to reply. I'd be making a complaint to the ICO if you know they are withholding anything (especially relating the ticket you paid initially - a useful 'test' of their completeness of response).

    A SAR also flags up that you might be feisty and a bit more difficult to handle than an average motorist who cowers at the idea of 'court' and the likes of whom a bully loves to deal with. Perhaps not so brave when one of them bites back!
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • NewNewMoney
    • By NewNewMoney 7th May 17, 4:40 PM
    • 8 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    NewNewMoney
    Thank you so much for the help and advice on this.

    To update, I sent a SAR on April 28th but due to the bank holiday weekend I doubt they would have received anything before May 3rd.

    In relation to my third PCN from P&PM, as mentioned in a previous post I've been following the advice in the newbies thread and appealed against the PCN well after 28 days using the template provided. They responded here: m.imgur.com/nTDYp64 and I assume I'll be getting another letter from gladstones in a few weeks.

    RE gladstones and the second PCN, I will send a letter to them using the same template on PePiPoo forum.

    I guess now its just a waiting game
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 7th May 17, 5:26 PM
    • 6,578 Posts
    • 5,521 Thanks
    The Deep
    Read some of this about Gladstones fails


    https://www.google.co.uk/search?sourceid=navclient&hl=en-GB&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4GUEA_en-GBGB707GB707&q=prankster+gladstoned&gws_rd=ssl#spf =1
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • NewNewMoney
    • By NewNewMoney 30th May 17, 10:39 PM
    • 8 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    NewNewMoney
    So I everyone was pretty prompt and I received an LBC from Gladstones before receiving a response to the letter in relation to their final warning (which I treated as an LBC), and P&PM responded to my SAR providing all the back and forth correspondence - no surprises in terms of the information they provided.

    Should I send another letter in response to the LBC? The LBC is standard, pretty identical to the final warning letter.

    Their response to my letter includes the information that P&PM shared with them, photos, details of the PCN etc but not my appeal/their response. And they also refer to two court cases - Elliott v Loake 1983 and VCS v HM Revenue and Customs 2013, as well as the Protection of Freedoms Act (in response to me not being the driver, just the registered keeper). imgur.com/a/MvQD8

    The letter said they are not instructed litigate through further correspondence and after 14 days they would issue a claim which I assume to be a court case.

    This is all for my second PCN. In regards to the the third PCN I've not received any letters apart from the reminders sent by P&PM.
    Last edited by NewNewMoney; 30-05-2017 at 10:43 PM.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 31st May 17, 12:32 AM
    • 46,919 Posts
    • 60,256 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Yes, respond to the LBC asking whether they are alleging that the Notice to Keeper in this instance complies with Schedule 4 of the POFA, or are they trying the old chestnut of pretending that the criminal case of Elliott v Loake has application here, because it doesn't?

    You need to respond, because in your defence you can then show the Judge you acted reasonably at all times.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • NewNewMoney
    • By NewNewMoney 11th Jun 17, 6:10 PM
    • 8 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    NewNewMoney
    Hello,

    I've received a claim form where my options are admit total amount claimed, partial claim or dispute the claim, costs have now increased from £160 to £237.88 and I have 14 days dated from June 8th to respond. (What a wonderful welcome back from holiday).

    I know I need to start working on a defence, a draft of which I will post shortly. I did mention in an earlier post that P&PM's response to my appeal (a link is in an earlier post) was a rejection, but they said ".... this does not negate the fact that your vehicle was displayed with a valid permit" I assume this was a typo but could this work in my favour as essentially they have admitted in a letter to me that they acknowledged my valid permit.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 11th Jun 17, 6:18 PM
    • 46,919 Posts
    • 60,256 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    I've received a claim form where my options are admit total amount claimed, partial claim or dispute the claim, costs have now increased from £160 to £237.88 and I have 14 days dated from June 8th to respond. (What a wonderful welcome back from holiday).
    The answers are in the NEWBIES thread post #2, to make sure you get the options right. Tells you how to do the AOS.

    they said ".... this does not negate the fact that your vehicle was displayed with a valid permit" I assume this was a typo but could this work in my favour as essentially they have admitted in a letter to me that they acknowledged my valid permit.

    ... They've effectively said my permit was valid...
    LOL! Yes I would quote them in the defence, you can't assume the written word is a typo!

    As for the rest of the defence, see the linked examples in post #2 of the NEWBIES thread or read some on the forum from this week and copy from them, and adapt to suit.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

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