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  • FIRST POST
    • Acidmonkey
    • By Acidmonkey 5th Feb 17, 12:26 PM
    • 36Posts
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    Acidmonkey
    Court Claim Form - Advice on how best to proceed - interesting situation!
    • #1
    • 5th Feb 17, 12:26 PM
    Court Claim Form - Advice on how best to proceed - interesting situation! 5th Feb 17 at 12:26 PM
    Hello all,

    I've followed all stickies and forum help guides etc - I'm now at the stage where I've been issued a Court Claim From from Gladstones/UKCPM, and I need to prepare my defence, and submit any evidence.

    In a nutshell this is my scenario:

    1. Wife owns lease to property and underground car park space. We both live at the address.There is no mention of parking controls in her property lease.

    2. I receive a courtesy car, and left my permit in my car being repaired, I park in bay that my wife owns the lease to. PCN issued by UKCPM.

    3. In a phone call to the property management company, I am told that UKCPM do not have a contract with the freeholder to operate, but an informal agreement to manage parking.

    4. Letters to and fro, UKCPM, DRP, Gladstones. All of these companies elect to use an postal address I no longer reside at, and after each letter I reply denying the debt, and asking them to update address details.

    5. Letter before claim arrives at wrong address, I respond within 28 days, but after 14 days as stipulated in their letter, due to their letter being sent to wrong address - I receive no response from Gladstones, but a County Court Claim arrives 10 days later at the correct address. (Clearly they read my response to their LBC, and elected not to respond!)

    6. Finally Court Claim Form arrives at the correct address (Yipeee!)

    Redacted letters and responses from/to all parties here: (including original ticket issued etc, all files are named accordingly):
    (Link Removed)

    Where do I go from here, in terms of advice, and how best to prepare my defence? Also it seems that Gladstone's LBC did not comply with Practice Direction?

    Can I counterclaim for trespass,harrassment etc even though the property, and car parking space is owned by my wife?

    I'll probably need to supply the following evidence: (feel free to add)

    1. A copy of our marriage certificate (property is in wifes maiden name)
    2 A copy of wifes lease, showing parking details and plot numbers
    3. Some evidence that I actually live at the address
    4. All copies of letters and responses - most are in the link above
    5. Try to get a written response from property management company, confirming no contract in place between freeholders and UKCPM

    Any advice really appreciated!
    Last edited by Acidmonkey; 07-02-2017 at 9:09 PM.
Page 4
    • Loadsofchildren123
    • By Loadsofchildren123 30th May 17, 12:58 PM
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    Loadsofchildren123
    Yes I think the OP has done all the paperwork correctly and paid the correct fees.


    What did you counterclaim for in the end Acid? Was it damages for breach of quiet enjoyment, trespass plus DPA breach? Can you put your Defence and counterclaim up here for us to see?


    Parties can only be added with permission, so I think formal permission still needs to be given. I'd expect the first order from the new court to deal with this by making an order joining the MA formally as 2nd Defendant and making the usual directions on the counterclaim as it is now the only claim - so WSs and documents to be served on x date, a trial bundle to be prepared by the claimant in the counterclaim (that's you Acid - it's a bit confusing, everyone will continue to refer to you as the Defendant, but you are now really the Claimant!) and a trial date.


    It's a good job you kept on top of this because some numpty at the court hadn't noticed your counterclaim/Pt 20 application (in spite of you paying the £255 issue fee plus the counterclaim fee....). So assume that the staff at the new court are equally as numpty-ish and do call them to make sure they understand that no directions have been made in the counterclaim yet and that the 2nd Defendant needs to be formally joined as a party.


    There's a chance the court may list a separate hearing for the issue of the joinder of the 2nd D to be determined, but there's no reason why this can't be dealt with on paper.
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 30th May 17, 1:25 PM
    • 40,716 Posts
    • 81,302 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    I had read this thread back in February, and re-read it again from scratch this morning. I am as a result on my second bag of popcorn.

    Acidmonkey, you are to be commended on your valiant efforts so far. Not only have you won your original case but you are seriously helping the fight against the residential private parking cause with your counterclaim.

    I can't add anything to the excellent legal points made by you and others, but I am still rooting for you.

    I also now cannot see any reason why you shouldn't fit a collapsible locking bollard to your parking space as long as the lease does no prohibit it. You do know of course such a bollard can be raised and locked if a car park without your permission, provided such device was installed before the parking event. A small warning sign to this effect, and that the space is being monitored by CCTV (even if it isn't) could also be added.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • safarmuk
    • By safarmuk 15th Aug 17, 5:48 PM
    • 613 Posts
    • 1,126 Thanks
    safarmuk
    Bumping. @AcidMonkey (if still around) - did you ever get a date for your counter claim hearing (so people remember the original claim by the PPC was dismissed as Glads didn't file their paperwork)?
    • Acidmonkey
    • By Acidmonkey 8th Dec 17, 10:27 AM
    • 36 Posts
    • 38 Thanks
    Acidmonkey
    Bumping. @AcidMonkey (if still around) - did you ever get a date for your counter claim hearing (so people remember the original claim by the PPC was dismissed as Glads didn't file their paperwork)?
    Originally posted by safarmuk
    I had read this thread back in February, and re-read it again from scratch this morning. I am as a result on my second bag of popcorn.

    Acidmonkey, you are to be commended on your valiant efforts so far. Not only have you won your original case but you are seriously helping the fight against the residential private parking cause with your counterclaim.

    I can't add anything to the excellent legal points made by you and others, but I am still rooting for you.

    I also now cannot see any reason why you shouldn't fit a collapsible locking bollard to your parking space as long as the lease does no prohibit it. You do know of course such a bollard can be raised and locked if a car park without your permission, provided such device was installed before the parking event. A small warning sign to this effect, and that the space is being monitored by CCTV (even if it isn't) could also be added.
    Originally posted by Fruitcake
    Yes I think the OP has done all the paperwork correctly and paid the correct fees.


    What did you counterclaim for in the end Acid? Was it damages for breach of quiet enjoyment, trespass plus DPA breach? Can you put your Defence and counterclaim up here for us to see?


    Parties can only be added with permission, so I think formal permission still needs to be given. I'd expect the first order from the new court to deal with this by making an order joining the MA formally as 2nd Defendant and making the usual directions on the counterclaim as it is now the only claim - so WSs and documents to be served on x date, a trial bundle to be prepared by the claimant in the counterclaim (that's you Acid - it's a bit confusing, everyone will continue to refer to you as the Defendant, but you are now really the Claimant!) and a trial date.


    It's a good job you kept on top of this because some numpty at the court hadn't noticed your counterclaim/Pt 20 application (in spite of you paying the £255 issue fee plus the counterclaim fee....). So assume that the staff at the new court are equally as numpty-ish and do call them to make sure they understand that no directions have been made in the counterclaim yet and that the 2nd Defendant needs to be formally joined as a party.


    There's a chance the court may list a separate hearing for the issue of the joinder of the 2nd D to be determined, but there's no reason why this can't be dealt with on paper.
    Originally posted by Loadsofchildren123
    Ok, wow this has been going on for some time.

    So, just to update you all. (not sure why I haven't been getting notifications) the last thing that had happened was that this case was being transferred to County Court at Clerkenwell & Shoreditch, as the judge had originally missed the counterclaim, and it had to be resent back up to the court - haven't heard a thing until today.

    This morning a letter arrived: Notice of Allocation the the Small Claims Track.with the hearing to take place in February 2018 - I suppose that's good news - taken an awfully long time!

    Essentially must I now forward all of the evidence, WS's etc I intend to rely on?

    As a side note I've received another LBC from Gladstones for a separate ticket in the same bay, along with a "PCN" this morning on my car. (After having confirmation 6 months ago from the MA that my bay has been removed from any parking controls) I'm using Daniel San's response to the new LBC. (http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=73208118#post73208118)

    This is getting really annoying and tedious - should I wait for the outcome of the hearing, or do I need to issue an injunction to Gladstones/ UKCPM?
    Last edited by Acidmonkey; 08-12-2017 at 1:47 PM.
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 8th Dec 17, 11:44 AM
    • 1,540 Posts
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    nosferatu1001
    Your hearing letter should instruct you when documents must be exchanged. THis would be when your counterclaim WS, photos letters etc are sent to the court AND to the claimant.

    I would send them a LBA for this current breach, and state that you will seek an injunction against them AND the MA as the MA remains fully liable for the actions of their agent in this matter.
    • Acidmonkey
    • By Acidmonkey 8th Dec 17, 1:45 PM
    • 36 Posts
    • 38 Thanks
    Acidmonkey
    Yes I think the OP has done all the paperwork correctly and paid the correct fees.


    What did you counterclaim for in the end Acid? Was it damages for breach of quiet enjoyment, trespass plus DPA breach? Can you put your Defence and counterclaim up here for us to see?


    Parties can only be added with permission, so I think formal permission still needs to be given. I'd expect the first order from the new court to deal with this by making an order joining the MA formally as 2nd Defendant and making the usual directions on the counterclaim as it is now the only claim - so WSs and documents to be served on x date, a trial bundle to be prepared by the claimant in the counterclaim (that's you Acid - it's a bit confusing, everyone will continue to refer to you as the Defendant, but you are now really the Claimant!) and a trial date.


    It's a good job you kept on top of this because some numpty at the court hadn't noticed your counterclaim/Pt 20 application (in spite of you paying the £255 issue fee plus the counterclaim fee....). So assume that the staff at the new court are equally as numpty-ish and do call them to make sure they understand that no directions have been made in the counterclaim yet and that the 2nd Defendant needs to be formally joined as a party.


    There's a chance the court may list a separate hearing for the issue of the joinder of the 2nd D to be determined, but there's no reason why this can't be dealt with on paper.
    Originally posted by Loadsofchildren123
    Redacted defense and counterclaim here:

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/024h5d47hzoacb3/Defence%20Counterclaim%20and%20Part%2020%20Counter claim_Redacted.pdf?dl=0
    Last edited by Acidmonkey; 08-12-2017 at 2:38 PM.
    • Loadsofchildren123
    • By Loadsofchildren123 8th Dec 17, 1:57 PM
    • 1,879 Posts
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    Loadsofchildren123
    I think you should try and add something to your counterclaim about these new tickets. Certainly an injunction (wasn't that in there anyway? I haven't looked, but I would have applied for damages for trespass plus an injunction preventing any further trespass).


    Under the rules, you'd need to formally amend your counterclaim. I'm trying to think what you'd apply for: perhaps a declaration that all pcns issued after the date of the MC agreeing that your bay wouldn't be subject to the controls are void..... However, you'd have to pay a fee to amend (the rules for amending claims and counterclaims are fairly easy to follow, it would be paper permission you'd be applying for so a fee of £100).


    However, often the courts give a lot of leeway to LiPs and in small claims. So if you don't want to have the faff of amending your counterclaim, you could shove all of this in your WS and then on the day ask for a declaration of some sorts. You must put the PPC on notice that you are going to do this so they can't say they've been ambushed. Perhaps write to them now saying you'll be seeking the court's leave to apply for a declaration and invite them now to withdraw the new pcns and to confirm they will never again enter onto your space or issue any car parked on it with a pcn. You could also say that their actions in continuing to harass you and to wrongly process your data, and in continuing to trespass on your space, mean that you will be asking the court to award aggravated damages and ask again that they desist.
    Although a practising Solicitor, my posts here are NOT legal advice, but are personal opinion based on limited facts provided anonymously by forum users. I accept no liability for the accuracy of any such posts and users are advised that, if they wish to obtain formal legal advice specific to their case, they must seek instruct and pay a solicitor.
    • Acidmonkey
    • By Acidmonkey 22nd Dec 17, 1:34 PM
    • 36 Posts
    • 38 Thanks
    Acidmonkey
    I think you should try and add something to your counterclaim about these new tickets. Certainly an injunction (wasn't that in there anyway? I haven't looked, but I would have applied for damages for trespass plus an injunction preventing any further trespass).


    Under the rules, you'd need to formally amend your counterclaim. I'm trying to think what you'd apply for: perhaps a declaration that all pcns issued after the date of the MC agreeing that your bay wouldn't be subject to the controls are void..... However, you'd have to pay a fee to amend (the rules for amending claims and counterclaims are fairly easy to follow, it would be paper permission you'd be applying for so a fee of £100).


    However, often the courts give a lot of leeway to LiPs and in small claims. So if you don't want to have the faff of amending your counterclaim, you could shove all of this in your WS and then on the day ask for a declaration of some sorts. You must put the PPC on notice that you are going to do this so they can't say they've been ambushed. Perhaps write to them now saying you'll be seeking the court's leave to apply for a declaration and invite them now to withdraw the new pcns and to confirm they will never again enter onto your space or issue any car parked on it with a pcn. You could also say that their actions in continuing to harass you and to wrongly process your data, and in continuing to trespass on your space, mean that you will be asking the court to award aggravated damages and ask again that they desist.
    Originally posted by Loadsofchildren123
    Thanks for this - great advice. Could you please clarify how I would seek the courts leave for a declaration, and the process involved? Apologies, never done this before!

    Have just sent Galdrags and UKCPM letters as directed by your good self.
    Last edited by Acidmonkey; 22-12-2017 at 3:25 PM.
    • Loadsofchildren123
    • By Loadsofchildren123 5th Jan 18, 12:36 PM
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    Loadsofchildren123
    in your counterclaim - can you remind us what your counterclaim says?
    Although a practising Solicitor, my posts here are NOT legal advice, but are personal opinion based on limited facts provided anonymously by forum users. I accept no liability for the accuracy of any such posts and users are advised that, if they wish to obtain formal legal advice specific to their case, they must seek instruct and pay a solicitor.
    • Acidmonkey
    • By Acidmonkey 5th Jan 18, 3:33 PM
    • 36 Posts
    • 38 Thanks
    Acidmonkey
    in your counterclaim - can you remind us what your counterclaim says?
    Originally posted by Loadsofchildren123
    Redacted counterclaim and defence here:

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/024h5d47hzoacb3/Defence%20Counterclaim%20and%20Part%2020%20Counter claim_Redacted.pdf?dl=0

    The infuriating this is that the court have completely missed the part 20 application to include the MA as a 2nd defendant. I've raised it with whoever mans the phones at the court, but not sure how to proceed with this. Should i still send the MA all documentation as if they are still going to be included in this countercalim?

    This is being dragged on, because initially the court for some reason ignored the counterclaim, now they've ignored the "part 20" part of it
    Last edited by Acidmonkey; 05-01-2018 at 3:37 PM.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 6th Jan 18, 1:04 AM
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    Coupon-mad
    Wow, incompetence at its worst! Remind them.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Loadsofchildren123
    • By Loadsofchildren123 6th Jan 18, 10:05 AM
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    Loadsofchildren123
    I’ll have a look at this for you on Monday
    Although a practising Solicitor, my posts here are NOT legal advice, but are personal opinion based on limited facts provided anonymously by forum users. I accept no liability for the accuracy of any such posts and users are advised that, if they wish to obtain formal legal advice specific to their case, they must seek instruct and pay a solicitor.
    • Loadsofchildren123
    • By Loadsofchildren123 9th Jan 18, 2:37 PM
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    Loadsofchildren123
    at d and e at the end of the counterclaim you've asked for an injunction and you've asked for such other relief as the court considers appropriate.


    So at a push you could say that e includes a declaration that any other tickets issued to you in the space are unenforceable (and they are further trespasses so you could theoretically increase the damages - however I think £750 was quite high for trespass). You haven't specifically asked for damages in respect of the harassment, but you could say that this is included in the global £750 sought in respect of the Data Protection breach I suppose.


    I think now that it's been transferred you must write to the court to point out that no order has been made on your part 20 application, for which you paid a fee and asking them to make an order about this urgently (which may necessitate the February hearing being changed). In the meantime, write to the MC and put them on notice of the omission and send them a copy of your letter to the court (presumably you have already made them aware and they have already seen all the documents?), and tell the court you've sent them a copy of your letter.


    If you haven't already made the MC aware, you'd better tell the court that other than a letter before claim, the MC isn't aware that you've applied to make it a party, you were waiting for the court to join it and then serve it with the claim and defence.


    The hearing in Feb can't go ahead without the MC being joined, pursuant to your application.


    When you do your WS, put in there about the new tickets, and exhibit the letter you hopefully wrote as I advised in post #67 and say you've had no response. Say that you want the court to make a declaration that no further tickets, including these and any future tickets, are enforceable against you in respect of your use of your space. Your WS will also need to give chapter and verse about your parking rights and the fact that they agreed not to apply any of their parking terms to your space.
    Although a practising Solicitor, my posts here are NOT legal advice, but are personal opinion based on limited facts provided anonymously by forum users. I accept no liability for the accuracy of any such posts and users are advised that, if they wish to obtain formal legal advice specific to their case, they must seek instruct and pay a solicitor.
    • Loadsofchildren123
    • By Loadsofchildren123 9th Jan 18, 2:38 PM
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    Loadsofchildren123
    You should use the new tickets to back up your trespass claim of £750 - say you are seeking aggravated damages because in spite of being on notice of the trespass claim, and in spite of having agreed not to apply their regulations to your space, they are continuing to ignore both and to continue with their acts of trespass.
    Although a practising Solicitor, my posts here are NOT legal advice, but are personal opinion based on limited facts provided anonymously by forum users. I accept no liability for the accuracy of any such posts and users are advised that, if they wish to obtain formal legal advice specific to their case, they must seek instruct and pay a solicitor.
    • Acidmonkey
    • By Acidmonkey 9th Jan 18, 5:18 PM
    • 36 Posts
    • 38 Thanks
    Acidmonkey
    at d and e at the end of the counterclaim you've asked for an injunction and you've asked for such other relief as the court considers appropriate.


    So at a push you could say that e includes a declaration that any other tickets issued to you in the space are unenforceable (and they are further trespasses so you could theoretically increase the damages - however I think £750 was quite high for trespass). You haven't specifically asked for damages in respect of the harassment, but you could say that this is included in the global £750 sought in respect of the Data Protection breach I suppose.


    I think now that it's been transferred you must write to the court to point out that no order has been made on your part 20 application, for which you paid a fee and asking them to make an order about this urgently (which may necessitate the February hearing being changed). In the meantime, write to the MC and put them on notice of the omission and send them a copy of your letter to the court (presumably you have already made them aware and they have already seen all the documents?), and tell the court you've sent them a copy of your letter.


    If you haven't already made the MC aware, you'd better tell the court that other than a letter before claim, the MC isn't aware that you've applied to make it a party, you were waiting for the court to join it and then serve it with the claim and defence.


    The hearing in Feb can't go ahead without the MC being joined, pursuant to your application.


    When you do your WS, put in there about the new tickets, and exhibit the letter you hopefully wrote as I advised in post #67 and say you've had no response. Say that you want the court to make a declaration that no further tickets, including these and any future tickets, are enforceable against you in respect of your use of your space. Your WS will also need to give chapter and verse about your parking rights and the fact that they agreed not to apply any of their parking terms to your space.
    Originally posted by Loadsofchildren123
    The MC were sent an LBC on 27th February 2017. Gladstones/UKCPM were written to on 22/12/17 letting them know that I will be looking to apply for a declaration / seek aggravated damages unless all PCN's are withdrawn, as per your advice in post #67.

    Should I write to the MC, and let them know that they have been added as a second defendant, however due to a clerical error they have not been included? Should the court be doing this? I've not yet sent any of the parties my evidence/WS pack - but I need to get this all together by the 16th.

    Really appreciate your advice here - would you happen to know someone in the legal field who will be willing to take this case on, of course at a cost? It's getting a little much to manage! Please PM if you are able to refer.

    Newborn arrival has seriously limited my time in dealing with this!

    Thanks!
    • Loadsofchildren123
    • By Loadsofchildren123 10th Jan 18, 3:02 PM
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    Loadsofchildren123
    You need to persuade the court to deal with it. If there is no order joining the MC the court has to issue one and serve the claim on them.

    Try emailing BMPA to see if someone might help you.
    Although a practising Solicitor, my posts here are NOT legal advice, but are personal opinion based on limited facts provided anonymously by forum users. I accept no liability for the accuracy of any such posts and users are advised that, if they wish to obtain formal legal advice specific to their case, they must seek instruct and pay a solicitor.
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