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  • FIRST POST
    • Acidmonkey
    • By Acidmonkey 5th Feb 17, 12:26 PM
    • 31Posts
    • 34Thanks
    Acidmonkey
    Court Claim Form - Advice on how best to proceed - interesting situation!
    • #1
    • 5th Feb 17, 12:26 PM
    Court Claim Form - Advice on how best to proceed - interesting situation! 5th Feb 17 at 12:26 PM
    Hello all,

    I've followed all stickies and forum help guides etc - I'm now at the stage where I've been issued a Court Claim From from Gladstones/UKCPM, and I need to prepare my defence, and submit any evidence.

    In a nutshell this is my scenario:

    1. Wife owns lease to property and underground car park space. We both live at the address.There is no mention of parking controls in her property lease.

    2. I receive a courtesy car, and left my permit in my car being repaired, I park in bay that my wife owns the lease to. PCN issued by UKCPM.

    3. In a phone call to the property management company, I am told that UKCPM do not have a contract with the freeholder to operate, but an informal agreement to manage parking.

    4. Letters to and fro, UKCPM, DRP, Gladstones. All of these companies elect to use an postal address I no longer reside at, and after each letter I reply denying the debt, and asking them to update address details.

    5. Letter before claim arrives at wrong address, I respond within 28 days, but after 14 days as stipulated in their letter, due to their letter being sent to wrong address - I receive no response from Gladstones, but a County Court Claim arrives 10 days later at the correct address. (Clearly they read my response to their LBC, and elected not to respond!)

    6. Finally Court Claim Form arrives at the correct address (Yipeee!)

    Redacted letters and responses from/to all parties here: (including original ticket issued etc, all files are named accordingly):
    (Link Removed)

    Where do I go from here, in terms of advice, and how best to prepare my defence? Also it seems that Gladstone's LBC did not comply with Practice Direction?

    Can I counterclaim for trespass,harrassment etc even though the property, and car parking space is owned by my wife?

    I'll probably need to supply the following evidence: (feel free to add)

    1. A copy of our marriage certificate (property is in wifes maiden name)
    2 A copy of wifes lease, showing parking details and plot numbers
    3. Some evidence that I actually live at the address
    4. All copies of letters and responses - most are in the link above
    5. Try to get a written response from property management company, confirming no contract in place between freeholders and UKCPM

    Any advice really appreciated!
    Last edited by Acidmonkey; 07-02-2017 at 9:09 PM.
Page 3
    • Loadsofchildren123
    • By Loadsofchildren123 6th Mar 17, 12:53 PM
    • 1,067 Posts
    • 1,865 Thanks
    Loadsofchildren123
    I think something along these lines. The court will forgive you if it is not perfectly set out. You may consider a trespass counterclaim against the Claimant as well as against the MA/MC.
    I hope this hasn't untypeset itself. I can see it's taken out the paragraph numbering, but you can put this in.


    IN THE [ ] COUNTY COURTCLAIM NO: [ ]
    B E T W E E N:-


    [ ]
    Claimant
    and

    [ ]
    Defendant
    [ ]
    Second Defendant
    __________________________________________________ ____________

    DEFENCE AND COUNTERCLAIM

    __________________________________________________ ___________



    DEFENCE
    • [Defence: paragraphs of Claim which you admit, which you put C to full proof of, and which you deny and why]

      PART 20 COUNTERCLAIM
    • [The Defendant repeats paragraphs X to X inclusive above herein – these are whatever you deny and your case].
    • Set out your rights under your lease/tenancy [The Defendant purchased the leasehold tenure of [address] on [date] OR The D entered into an assured shorthold tenancy with the owner of the leasehold title of [address] on [date], the terms of which included [set out relevant terms on parking].

    • The Second Defendant [MA/MC] has interfered with those rights by contracting with the Claimant to manage the parking. The [lease/tenancy] does not permit the Second Defendant to impose any change on the Defendant to the terms of his [lease/tenancy], such as the requirement to display a permit and the right to charge the Defendant for any failure to do so, and the Defendant has not accepted any such changes.

    • Set out particulars of the breaches of your rights.

    • The Second Defendant is responsible for the acts of the Claimant, having contracted with it on [date] to manage the parking at [address] and grating it the right to [issue pcns etc].

    • [consider a counterclaim against the Claimant: you could apply for an injunction to prohibit it from issuing further pcns to any car parked in the parking space to which you have rights and damages for trespass?] eg the Claimant has interfered with the Defendant’s rights to park contained in his leasehold title/AST by entering on that space without authority to issue his vehicle with a penalty charge notice, thereby committing an act of trespass, causing the Defendant financial loss and distress.


    • In the circumstances, the Claimant seeks the following:
      1. From the Claimant [an injunction prohibiting it from…… together with damages for trespasss in the sum of £…..]
      2. From the Second Defendant damages in respect of loss he has suffered in defending the claim brought by the Claimant, including damages for distress.

        AND the Defendant claims:-
    • An order that the Claimant be prohibited from entering on the land comprised in the Defendant’s parking space for any purpose
    • An order that the Claimant pay damages to compensate him for the Claimant’s trespass
    • Damages as against the Second Defendant for losses the Defendant has suffered as a result of the Claimant’s actions and this claim
    • Such further or other relief as the court may consider appropriate.
    • An order that the Claimant and the Second Defendant do pay the costs of this application.

      DATED THIS [ ]th DAY OF [ ] 2017

      Statement of Truth

      I believe that the facts stated in this Defence and Counterclaim are true.


      Signed …………………………………
      Defendant

      Address for receiving documents
      [ ]
    • Loadsofchildren123
    • By Loadsofchildren123 6th Mar 17, 12:53 PM
    • 1,067 Posts
    • 1,865 Thanks
    Loadsofchildren123
    You could also add in a DPA counterclaim if you have one
    • Acidmonkey
    • By Acidmonkey 7th Mar 17, 12:03 AM
    • 31 Posts
    • 34 Thanks
    Acidmonkey
    I think something along these lines. The court will forgive you if it is not perfectly set out. You may consider a trespass counterclaim against the Claimant as well as against the MA/MC.
    I hope this hasn't untypeset itself. I can see it's taken out the paragraph numbering, but you can put this in.


    IN THE [ ] COUNTY COURTCLAIM NO: [ ]
    B E T W E E N:-


    [ ]
    Claimant
    and

    [ ]
    Defendant
    [ ]
    Second Defendant
    __________________________________________________ ____________

    DEFENCE AND COUNTERCLAIM

    __________________________________________________ ___________



    DEFENCE
    • [Defence: paragraphs of Claim which you admit, which you put C to full proof of, and which you deny and why]

      PART 20 COUNTERCLAIM
    • [The Defendant repeats paragraphs X to X inclusive above herein – these are whatever you deny and your case].
    • Set out your rights under your lease/tenancy [The Defendant purchased the leasehold tenure of [address] on [date] OR The D entered into an assured shorthold tenancy with the owner of the leasehold title of [address] on [date], the terms of which included [set out relevant terms on parking].

    • The Second Defendant [MA/MC] has interfered with those rights by contracting with the Claimant to manage the parking. The [lease/tenancy] does not permit the Second Defendant to impose any change on the Defendant to the terms of his [lease/tenancy], such as the requirement to display a permit and the right to charge the Defendant for any failure to do so, and the Defendant has not accepted any such changes.

    • Set out particulars of the breaches of your rights.

    • The Second Defendant is responsible for the acts of the Claimant, having contracted with it on [date] to manage the parking at [address] and grating it the right to [issue pcns etc].

    • [consider a counterclaim against the Claimant: you could apply for an injunction to prohibit it from issuing further pcns to any car parked in the parking space to which you have rights and damages for trespass?] eg the Claimant has interfered with the Defendant’s rights to park contained in his leasehold title/AST by entering on that space without authority to issue his vehicle with a penalty charge notice, thereby committing an act of trespass, causing the Defendant financial loss and distress.


    • In the circumstances, the Claimant seeks the following:
      1. From the Claimant [an injunction prohibiting it from…… together with damages for trespasss in the sum of £…..]
      2. From the Second Defendant damages in respect of loss he has suffered in defending the claim brought by the Claimant, including damages for distress.

        AND the Defendant claims:-
    • An order that the Claimant be prohibited from entering on the land comprised in the Defendant’s parking space for any purpose
    • An order that the Claimant pay damages to compensate him for the Claimant’s trespass
    • Damages as against the Second Defendant for losses the Defendant has suffered as a result of the Claimant’s actions and this claim
    • Such further or other relief as the court may consider appropriate.
    • An order that the Claimant and the Second Defendant do pay the costs of this application.

      DATED THIS [ ]th DAY OF [ ] 2017

      Statement of Truth

      I believe that the facts stated in this Defence and Counterclaim are true.


      Signed …………………………………
      Defendant

      Address for receiving documents
      [ ]
    Originally posted by Loadsofchildren123
    ]

    Thank you - this is great guidance. so just to clarify, UKCPM are the Claimant, I am the Defendant, and the MA are the 2nd Defendants, throughout the defence and counterclaim/part 20?

    So in the Part 20 which I am adding separately to my defence and counterlclaim, I, the defendant seeks the following from the Second Defendant. Am I making sense? Or do I become the claimant in the section 20?
    Last edited by Acidmonkey; 07-03-2017 at 12:07 AM.
    • Loadsofchildren123
    • By Loadsofchildren123 7th Mar 17, 2:07 PM
    • 1,067 Posts
    • 1,865 Thanks
    Loadsofchildren123
    You always describe yourself as Defendant or 1st Defendant (even though, yes, you are technically the Claimant in the counterclaim).
    MA is always 2nd Defendant (ie Defendant to the counterclaim)
    UKCPM is always Claimant (even though technically a Defendant to the counterclaim)


    Any counterclaim, whether it's against UKCPM or MA, goes under the Part 20 Counterclaim heading. Deal first with the counterclaim against the Claimant and then against the 2nd Defendant.


    End with what you are seeking against each of them.
    • Acidmonkey
    • By Acidmonkey 5th Apr 17, 1:28 PM
    • 31 Posts
    • 34 Thanks
    Acidmonkey
    Just to update, I have now received a "Notice of Proposed Allocation to the Small Claims Track"

    It reads as follows:

    "TAKE NOTICE THAT:

    1. This is now a defended claim.
    A copy of the defence has already been sent to you by the defendant.

    2. It appears that this case is suitable for allocation to the small claims track.
    If you believe that this track is not the appropriate track for this claim, you must complete box C1 on the Small Claims Directions Questionnaire (Form N180) and explain why.

    3. You must by the xx/xx/17 complete the Small Claims Directions Questionnaire (Form N180) and file it with the court office, and serve copies on all other parties. "

    Point 1 above - is that referring to the defence that I submitted to the court? As I have not received anything from any of the other parties.

    I've got to fill out the N180 form, is the small claims track where I want this to be, and is there anything I should know before filling the form out?

    If I'm using a WS from my wife, would this count as a witness that needs to be included in the D4 section?

    Also must I send the Form N180 to the other parties?
    Last edited by Acidmonkey; 05-04-2017 at 1:31 PM.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 5th Apr 17, 6:42 PM
    • 50,061 Posts
    • 63,455 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Point 1 above - is that referring to the defence that I submitted to the court?
    Yes.


    I've got to fill out the N180 form, is the small claims track where I want this to be, and is there anything I should know before filling the form out?
    Yes, read bargepole's summary of the paperwork & how to complete it.

    If I'm using a WS from my wife, would this count as a witness that needs to be included in the D4 section?
    Yes, so you will provide two WS (yours and hers) in due course.

    Also must I send the Form N180 to the other parties?
    Yes, to their solicitor. But this is already covered by bargepole in his post linked in the NEWBIES thread post #2.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Acidmonkey
    • By Acidmonkey 17th May 17, 11:30 PM
    • 31 Posts
    • 34 Thanks
    Acidmonkey
    Yes.


    Yes, read bargepole's summary of the paperwork & how to complete it.

    Yes, so you will provide two WS (yours and hers) in due course.

    Yes, to their solicitor. But this is already covered by bargepole in his post linked in the NEWBIES thread post #2.
    Originally posted by Coupon-mad
    You always describe yourself as Defendant or 1st Defendant (even though, yes, you are technically the Claimant in the counterclaim).
    MA is always 2nd Defendant (ie Defendant to the counterclaim)
    UKCPM is always Claimant (even though technically a Defendant to the counterclaim)


    Any counterclaim, whether it's against UKCPM or MA, goes under the Part 20 Counterclaim heading. Deal first with the counterclaim against the Claimant and then against the 2nd Defendant.


    End with what you are seeking against each of them.
    Originally posted by Loadsofchildren123
    Hi all, some good news!

    Gladstone's never bothered to reply with their directions questionnaire in time, and so be default the case has been struck out - bit of a weird one really!

    I'm just waiting to see what happens once the case goes before a judge, and to see if the judge will award anything in my favour.

    I'll keep you posted of any developments, and thanks again for all the help!
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 17th May 17, 11:31 PM
    • 50,061 Posts
    • 63,455 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Have you paid for the counter-claim? You need to be sure the CCBC has realised there is a live Counter-claim to go forward, so I would ring them and ask if the Order only mentions the Claimant's claim being struck out.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Acidmonkey
    • By Acidmonkey 17th May 17, 11:35 PM
    • 31 Posts
    • 34 Thanks
    Acidmonkey
    Have you paid for the counter-claim? You need to be sure the CCBC has realised there is a live Counter-claim to go forward, so I would ring them and ask if the Order only mentions the Claimant's claim being struck out.
    Originally posted by Coupon-mad
    I have paid for the counterclaim and a part20 to add the property management company to my counterclaim..

    I spoke to the court who said that it will go before a judge who will decide what to award in my counterclaim.

    Although from my phone-calls, whoever is manning the phones at the county court, seems to be a geriatric that doesn't seem to know his left from his right. I'll call again tomorrow just to be sure.
    • safarmuk
    • By safarmuk 18th May 17, 1:01 PM
    • 473 Posts
    • 873 Thanks
    safarmuk
    I spoke to the court who said that it will go before a judge who will decide what to award in my counterclaim.
    Very interested in the outcome of this one as it is the first time I have seen a counter claim against an MA. When is the court date?
    • Acidmonkey
    • By Acidmonkey 29th May 17, 9:16 PM
    • 31 Posts
    • 34 Thanks
    Acidmonkey
    Very interested in the outcome of this one as it is the first time I have seen a counter claim against an MA. When is the court date?
    Originally posted by safarmuk
    Have you paid for the counter-claim? You need to be sure the CCBC has realised there is a live Counter-claim to go forward, so I would ring them and ask if the Order only mentions the Claimant's claim being struck out.
    Originally posted by Coupon-mad
    Apologies for not replying sooner - have been away on holiday!

    CouponMad, you are correct, I did call the court on the 18th May, and they mentioned it just got struck out as they didn't notice there was a live counter-claim. I was rather annoyed because they had confirmed receipt, and the counterclaim was part of my defence

    I asked the clerk to pull the file whilst I was on the phone and lo and behold, the counter-claim and part 20 were both present... The clerk said that this would have to go back up to the judge, but did not specify a date.

    I've just received a letter, that as a result of an order made on the 24th May 2017 the claim has been transferred to another Country Court that is not my local Court.

    What does this mean, and what happens next?
    Last edited by Acidmonkey; 29-05-2017 at 9:20 PM.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 29th May 17, 9:25 PM
    • 50,061 Posts
    • 63,455 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    How far away is the court allocated, in the same county/area? Sometimes courts allocate cases within the same area, and sometimes courts close (e.g. the county court at Bury is closing I think, and many London cases are being heard at Clerkenwell which may not tbe the nearest court but they do that to save court money...).
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 29-05-2017 at 9:30 PM.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Acidmonkey
    • By Acidmonkey 29th May 17, 9:27 PM
    • 31 Posts
    • 34 Thanks
    Acidmonkey
    How far away is the court allocated, in the same county/area? Sometimes courts allocate cases within the same area, and sometimes courts close (e.g. the county court at Bury is closing I think, and many London cases are being heard at Clerkenwell whcih may not tbe the nearest court but they do that to save court money...).
    Originally posted by Coupon-mad
    Yup, has moved from Barnet to Clerkenwell. Has it been transferred to just decide if I am awarded anything from the counterclaim? Can the claimant still have a say?
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 29th May 17, 9:31 PM
    • 50,061 Posts
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    Coupon-mad
    Here is why it was transferred, in simple terms, because they can:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=72119136#post72119136

    You should be able to tell from the Order, what it now relates to. It must be about hearing your counterclaim, so gather your evidence and check if it states the date by which you must file your own Witness Statement and evidence before the hearing. You don't just rock up.
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 29-05-2017 at 9:33 PM.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Acidmonkey
    • By Acidmonkey 29th May 17, 10:19 PM
    • 31 Posts
    • 34 Thanks
    Acidmonkey
    Here is why it was transferred, in simple terms, because they can:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=72119136#post72119136

    You should be able to tell from the Order, what it now relates to. It must be about hearing your counterclaim, so gather your evidence and check if it states the date by which you must file your own Witness Statement and evidence before the hearing. You don't just rock up.
    Originally posted by Coupon-mad
    Thanks for the info. The Order mentions nothing, only that the case is being transferred. No requests for a WS, evidence or a date.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 29th May 17, 11:38 PM
    • 50,061 Posts
    • 63,455 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    So for your Counter-claim, am I right that you have paid the £25 fee but have not filed a WS or evidence? I would call Clerkenwell Court and ask for clarification as to what this hearing is set to address, and at what point does the Judge require your WS and evidence.

    Others may advise differently - maybe see what LoadsofChildren123 makes of it when she is back on the forum (maybe later this week) as she is legally qualified and I am not.

    Does is say how long has been set aside for that hearing? 20 mins? An hour?
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • IamEmanresu
    • By IamEmanresu 30th May 17, 6:41 AM
    • 1,480 Posts
    • 2,760 Thanks
    IamEmanresu
    Thanks for the info. The Order mentions nothing, only that the case is being transferred. No requests for a WS, evidence or a date.
    Clerkenwell is being used as some London courts are being closed. [There are no facilities there but there is a cafe on the corner of Gee Street and Goswell Road]

    As regards communication from the court, when they have a date you will get instructions to say when the WS has to be sent and more importantly when the hearing fee (£25) has to be paid. If you don't pay it, the case will automatically be struck out under the new Civil Procedure Rules. So watch out for the Notice of Allocation.
    Life's for living, get on with it rather than worrying about these. If they hassle, counter claim.
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 30th May 17, 8:24 AM
    • 7,005 Posts
    • 6,077 Thanks
    The Deep
    Has anyone mentioned the Davies case? That is what happens when the PPC take on a barrister.


    http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?377246-UKPC-liable-for-trespass-**SUCCESS**
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • Loadsofchildren123
    • By Loadsofchildren123 30th May 17, 12:21 PM
    • 1,067 Posts
    • 1,865 Thanks
    Loadsofchildren123
    have a look at hairray's thread as well, where I gave some advice on his lease and letters to the freeholder and the management company - these may help you with your WS and your Skeleton Argument (the latter is not a compulsory document, it is a document you do a few days before your final hearing and in it you summarise your case, their defence, and your evidence and you cross refer it to the case law and documents you rely on - it's like an aide memoire for use at the hearing).


    The case may have been transferred to the Defendant's home court - the "Defendant" for these purposes now being the MA/PPC. Or it may just be a neighbouring court that has capacity.


    So the order just says there's been a transfer. Once the file has been received at the new court, a judge will look at it and make directions for exchange of evidence, final hearing etc. Once you've got that put up a post and we'll help you take it from there.


    Perhaps now might be the time for you to write to the MA and the PPC and pressurise them both to offer a settlement?


    Well done for getting it this far!
    Last edited by Loadsofchildren123; 30-05-2017 at 12:50 PM.
    • safarmuk
    • By safarmuk 30th May 17, 12:26 PM
    • 473 Posts
    • 873 Thanks
    safarmuk
    I think AcidMonkey has already paid £255 for the counter claim (against UK CPM the claimant in the original claim) and £70 to add the MA to the counter claim (second defendant).

    If I remember correctly the Defence was submitted with a Part 20 counter claim but Gladrags didn't do the DQ's so they lost by default, however the counter claim should have gone ahead. I guess this last bit is what will occur in Clerkenwell but as others have said here (and this is new to many people here) it might be good to phone the court and find out what further you need to submit before the date and when LOC123 is back get her advice as well (or even Jonersh)

    EDIT - and right on cue LOC123 posts ^^^^^^^
    Last edited by safarmuk; 30-05-2017 at 12:29 PM.
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