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  • FIRST POST
    • JamesM333
    • By JamesM333 1st Feb 17, 3:18 PM
    • 5Posts
    • 6Thanks
    JamesM333
    Think I may have made a hash of it
    • #1
    • 1st Feb 17, 3:18 PM
    Think I may have made a hash of it 1st Feb 17 at 3:18 PM
    Hi,

    I'm after opinion from more knowledgeable minds. I've winged it a little with appealing my PCN from Vehicle Control Services Limited and just want to see if I've put myself into a corner where I'd be better off paying.

    I returned to my car at MediaCityUK Booths Car Park on 8th December at about 8:20pm. I found a parking attendant filling out a PCN as my pay and display ticket ran out at 8:10pm. He said he had to complete it as he'd started to write it.I took the PCN and left.

    On the PCN it claims my car is black (it's blue) and that the driver was not present (I was - he handed it to me).

    I appealed on the grounds that £100 was unfair as a penalty for 9 minutes and disproportionate to the loss to landowner especially given the car park was largely empty. They knocked this back ~(obviously) and I took the appeal to the 'Independent' Appeals Service. I was given two choices of registered keeper or driver. As it was a company car I couldn't select keeper so (stupidly!) I ticked driver to continue through to the next stage.

    I cited that ParkingEye v Cargius had set a precedent for paid car parks in terms of fair loss. They claimed Beavis as the precedent. They still claimed I had not been present and that the PCN was signed (illegibly and with no name) as an admissible witness account in a court of law.

    Their parking operator had noted the car as black. Upon request they finally uploaded their photographs of their computer screens showing the blue car parked in an area that wasn't the same as the area marked by their operator on the PCN (his sketch showed the vehicle along one side, the photos showed it in the middle of the car park).

    They have said my knowledge of the events shows I was the driver and present (despite also disputing that I was present). The Pay and Display ticket holds the livery of Excel Parking Services but the signage and PCN is headed by Vehicle Control Services. I've asked for evidence of Vehicle Control Services' contract with the landowner and they've said the signage is that contract. They've also said that the pay and display ticket is "advertising media" and so not part of any contractual agreement but then said I breached the contractual terms and conditions by not displaying a valid pay and display ticket as it had expired.

    Simply, do I have a leg to stand on?
Page 1
    • Redx
    • By Redx 1st Feb 17, 3:42 PM
    • 14,741 Posts
    • 18,528 Thanks
    Redx
    • #2
    • 1st Feb 17, 3:42 PM
    • #2
    • 1st Feb 17, 3:42 PM
    everybody asks that question , and only a judge can tell you (which will vary from judge to judge)

    at the end of the day , its a civil dispute (like on Judge Rinder)

    VCS and EXCEL are sister companies and they often get the 2 mixed up , which may or may not help you

    they are IPC members , so no POPLA , the IAS is a kangaroo court

    if they know you are the driver, POFA2012 is out of the window , but neither VCS nor EXCEL use POFA2012 (so far)

    if it gets to court (after the BW LEGAL phase) , within 6 years , you can use the facts you have described , plus owners contract , plus signage , against them , make them prove their case to a learned judge

    if they can prove it to a judge , they win , you lose

    BEAVIS was a Supreme Court ruling, so yes it will carry some weight although your scenario is not an overstay on a free car park

    it is what a judge says it is , and you dont have to pay a penny unless a judge says so , but it is easier for them if they know the drivers details

    the colour of the car is irrelevant , but we think they make mistakes like that to irk the driver into giving themselves away , clearly this did the trick with you !!
    Last edited by Redx; 01-02-2017 at 3:46 PM.
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 1st Feb 17, 4:04 PM
    • 48,135 Posts
    • 61,578 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #3
    • 1st Feb 17, 4:04 PM
    • #3
    • 1st Feb 17, 4:04 PM
    They (IPC members) are meant to allow a ten minutes grace period (minimum) same as the BPA which in fact was agreed to be not less than 11 minutes at a DVLA meeting ages ago.

    So it breaches the grace period under their Code of Practice and if they try a small claim these are mucked up left, right and centre by BW Legal. EVERYONE has legs to stand on v these claims right now. We think maybe more Judges are seeing this for the feeding frenzy it is.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • safarmuk
    • By safarmuk 1st Feb 17, 4:41 PM
    • 407 Posts
    • 774 Thanks
    safarmuk
    • #4
    • 1st Feb 17, 4:41 PM
    • #4
    • 1st Feb 17, 4:41 PM
    So the OP sits tight, rides out the debt collector letters and waits to see if in the next 6 years he gets a Letter Before Claim from Gladstones ... if he does he comes back here, puts a defence together and beats VCS in court (unless they discontinue)?
    • JamesM333
    • By JamesM333 13th Feb 17, 10:35 AM
    • 5 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    JamesM333
    • #5
    • 13th Feb 17, 10:35 AM
    • #5
    • 13th Feb 17, 10:35 AM
    Thanks all,

    Had the expected IAS dismissal of appeal including some statements which seemed a little baffling:

    "As the Operator does not allege a breach of contract they do not seek damages for loss, they seek payments pursuant to a specific contract term which I am satisfied was made reasonably clear to the Appellant at the time of parking .Demonstrating a genuine pre-estimate of loss is therefore not necessary. For further guidance on this point the Appellant may wish to consider the judgment in PARKINGEYE LIMITED and BARRY BEAVIS [2015] EWCA Civ 402"

    Seemed odd to say they don't allege a breach of contract and then say it's purusant to breaching a term of the contract (or at least the way I read it) and also referencing Beavis when in my appeal I had pointed Cargius as the relevant precedent which they haven't mentioned.

    So Debt Collector letters will come I imagine - sounds like sit tight and see if they bother then? If so, come back here. Thanks all for your help. Sets my mind a bit more at ease.
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 13th Feb 17, 10:52 AM
    • 6,674 Posts
    • 5,653 Thanks
    The Deep
    • #6
    • 13th Feb 17, 10:52 AM
    • #6
    • 13th Feb 17, 10:52 AM
    Did any of the paperwork mention v,a,t,? If not, they may be trying to avoid it. Drop the tax fraud hotline a note, and read up the difference between a breach of contract claim and a contractual charge.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • JamesM333
    • By JamesM333 16th Feb 17, 11:48 AM
    • 5 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    JamesM333
    • #7
    • 16th Feb 17, 11:48 AM
    • #7
    • 16th Feb 17, 11:48 AM
    Nope. No mention of VAT.

    I've also just had another look at their contravention photos in relation to the ten minute grace period. The latest any of them has on the date stamp is 20:20 with the P&D ticket expiring at 20:10. The only thing that refers to 20:21 is the PCN itself as when the PCN was issued. Adjudicator states:

    "I am presented with evidence to show that the vehicle was still parked after the expiry of the ticket at 20.21 at which point the vehicle appears to have remained parked so I am satisfied that the Appellant had not returned to their vehicle by this point. On this evidence the vehicle was parked without a valid ticket for at least 11 minutes."

    Seems the evidence doesn't help VCS in terms of proving the car breached the grace period as the attendant took the images before writing the ticket and thus the photographic evidence they have only shows the car parked at a time before the PCN grace period expired.

    Thanks all
    Last edited by JamesM333; 20-02-2017 at 4:17 PM. Reason: Missed out "grace period."
    • JamesM333
    • By JamesM333 17th Mar 17, 9:33 AM
    • 5 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    JamesM333
    • #8
    • 17th Mar 17, 9:33 AM
    • #8
    • 17th Mar 17, 9:33 AM
    Update

    Got the first letter since the IAS rejected my appeal.

    VCS are "disappointed" to find I've not paid and so issued a final demand notice.

    I'm assuming this is the start of their scare tactics from their "Debt and Litigation Manager" and debt collection partners to come.

    Now at the ignore stage?

    I did contact them a while back during the appeal to request ANPR images and have been met by a wall of silence (assuming they're going to continue relying on the photos that show the vehicle parked within the grace period). Imagine they'll just go away after a while.
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 17th Mar 17, 9:50 AM
    • 39,672 Posts
    • 79,383 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    • #9
    • 17th Mar 17, 9:50 AM
    • #9
    • 17th Mar 17, 9:50 AM
    Update

    Got the first letter since the IAS rejected my appeal.

    VCS are "disappointed" to find I've not paid and so issued a final demand notice.

    I'm assuming this is the start of their scare tactics from their "Debt and Litigation Manager" and debt collection partners to come.

    Now at the ignore stage?

    I did contact them a while back during the appeal to request ANPR images and have been met by a wall of silence (assuming they're going to continue relying on the photos that show the vehicle parked within the grace period). Imagine they'll just go away after a while.
    Originally posted by JamesM333
    Yes you are in ignore mode.

    There won't be any ANPR images where a windscreen ticket is issued.

    Was the IAS assessor's name given? I doubt it. That is a breach of the ADR act 2015, something to tell the judge should it ever get to court.

    Did you complain to the retailer/landowner where the driver parked?
    Last edited by Fruitcake; 17-03-2017 at 9:53 AM.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 17th Mar 17, 10:45 AM
    • 48,135 Posts
    • 61,578 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Imagine they'll just go away after a while.
    Originally posted by JamesM333
    No they won't. You will be defending a BW Legal claim (we win 99% of the time as BW Legal are so rubbish with evidence.

    Search the forum and read Parking Prankster Blogs about BW legal claims.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 17th Mar 17, 10:56 AM
    • 6,674 Posts
    • 5,653 Thanks
    The Deep
    Have a look at some Parking Prankster blogs, there are lots of reports of BW fails.

    http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • JamesM333
    • By JamesM333 20th Mar 17, 1:50 PM
    • 5 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    JamesM333
    No Adjudicator name. Just signed off "Yours sincerely, The Independent Appeals Service."

    I've complained to the retailer and landowner but heard nothing back from them.

    I'll read up on BW Legal. Thanks!
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