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  • FIRST POST
    • thismakemesad
    • By thismakemesad 25th Jan 17, 12:49 PM
    • 56Posts
    • 14Thanks
    thismakemesad
    SIP Parking / Gladstones Court Claim / Defence Stage
    • #1
    • 25th Jan 17, 12:49 PM
    SIP Parking / Gladstones Court Claim / Defence Stage 25th Jan 17 at 12:49 PM
    Good afternoon all,

    A parking ticket was received last year (14/10/16) on Cable Street Manchester - In this circumstance the driver was in Manchester and paid for 3 hours parking. the driver was late back due to a hold up at work, But they made it back within the hour. There is now a final reminder on the ticket.
    The bill now stands at £125 but because it has been left so long I don't think they will listen to anything as it is so far past the ticket. Any advice??

    Does anybody know the landowner so I could email and explain the situation? I've heard that gets better results?
    Last edited by thismakemesad; 10-05-2017 at 11:52 PM. Reason: New information
Page 4
    • thismakemesad
    • By thismakemesad 19th Jun 17, 10:55 AM
    • 56 Posts
    • 14 Thanks
    thismakemesad
    Ohhhh okay, so the actual best thing from here is to go to court, right? There was me thinking that going to court would mean I probably don't have the best of cases..
    Thanks for the heads up with the threads I need to read! Will get on that now
    • thismakemesad
    • By thismakemesad 27th Jun 17, 12:51 PM
    • 56 Posts
    • 14 Thanks
    thismakemesad
    Just a quick update. I have the N180 form, filled it in, made a photocopy to send to Gladstones, and sending the original copy to the courts. Should I begin the witness statement now?
    • thismakemesad
    • By thismakemesad 7th Aug 17, 8:17 PM
    • 56 Posts
    • 14 Thanks
    thismakemesad
    I have the court date through today. late October. I have to wait until the claimant pays the court trial fee of £25, which I'm assuming they will, by 25th Sept.

    what happens next? Am I right in thinking I need to make my defence? Or is my initial defence still worthy here?

    it also states that "the parties are referred to Part 27 of the Civil Procedure Rules and the Practice Direction go that Part for guidance on how the hearing of the claim will be conducted."
    Last edited by thismakemesad; 07-08-2017 at 8:21 PM. Reason: additional info
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 7th Aug 17, 8:20 PM
    • 14,979 Posts
    • 23,530 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    You only get one shot at a defence. But please read the NEWBIES FAQ sticky, post #2, which explains the process from LBA to court appearance, and what you need to do along the way.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Redx
    • By Redx 7th Aug 17, 8:39 PM
    • 16,110 Posts
    • 20,176 Thanks
    Redx
    as above, your defence is already submitted , you dont get another go

    if you are asking about what happens next, then you have failed to read the BARGEPOLE "what happens and when" post from post #2 of the newbies sticky thread

    please slap yourself and also tell yourself "I must do better" , lol
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 8th Aug 17, 6:51 AM
    • 579 Posts
    • 701 Thanks
    nosferatu1001
    Also double check your lettter

    It tells you when your documents MUST be exchanged by. This is to claimant AND to the court. THIS IS ABSOLUTELY KEY as a date - for both you and the claimant. Miss this date, the sanctions can be severe.

    So, tell us the date...
    • thismakemesad
    • By thismakemesad 15th Aug 17, 10:10 AM
    • 56 Posts
    • 14 Thanks
    thismakemesad
    Consider myself slapped! Apologies.

    The date is 23rd October and I must submit no later than 14 days before the trial which would be the 9th October.

    Can anybody recommend some good Witness Statements to read up on? I'm reading Bargepole's section "you may also want to include a Skeleton Argument to flesh out the legal points, or you could include those as part of your Witness Statement." and it has confused me a little to how I should lay this out and link my photos etc. to the defence I have submitted. Maybe I am just not sure on whether my points need expanding, I feel I just need photo evidence? If anybody can recommend how much I need to expand and the benefits of doing so so I can understand that would be great. Defence posted above for any new readers.
    Thanks in advance
    Last edited by thismakemesad; 15-08-2017 at 10:34 AM. Reason: More information
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 15th Aug 17, 3:00 PM
    • 50,736 Posts
    • 64,140 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    I would look at the example WS in the NEWBIES thread post #2, and adapt one.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Redx
    • By Redx 15th Aug 17, 3:04 PM
    • 16,110 Posts
    • 20,176 Thanks
    Redx
    and look at posts by loadsofchildren123 (a solicitor who a PPC tried to mug , failed and created another fightback warrior instead)

    she has written plenty to help people with court cases , plus had her own court case thread too

    some of those examples from post #2 of the NEWBIES sticky thread may well link to what she , johnnersh and coupon-mad etc have written)

    you will get a feeling of deja vu here, due to being continually referred back to that post #2 in the NEWBIES sticky thread

    its what its there for , which is why nasty vindictive people tried to sabotage it overnight
    Last edited by Redx; 26-09-2017 at 3:31 PM.
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • thismakemesad
    • By thismakemesad 26th Sep 17, 12:48 PM
    • 56 Posts
    • 14 Thanks
    thismakemesad
    I am trying to find a transcript of - Excel v Mr C C8DP37F1 Stockport - as suggested in #2 to provide (g) to provide transcripts that support my argument. I have made a reference to the Elliot vs Loake case not being relevant if the Claimant brings it up, but I can't seem to find it anywhere, I can't find it in the prankster page or any google searches. Any suggestions?

    Also, I am wondering whether to provide the whole transcript for the Beavis case that I refer to as 'this case confirms' in point 5b. ? Seems like a lot of pages to include? I'm aware my lack of knowledge in how Law claims are handled in the court may make this sound like an obvious thing I may have misunderstood, apologies if this is just the way it is
    Last edited by thismakemesad; 26-09-2017 at 12:58 PM. Reason: More information
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 26th Sep 17, 2:08 PM
    • 50,736 Posts
    • 64,140 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    You don't need to supply the entire transcript from the Beavis decision, but could pick out a page by searching it online for the wording that supports your case.

    Re the 'Excel v Mr C' case, if it's not on the Prankster's list of case law then I doubt there is any transcript - they are rare/expensive to get. So the appeal case of Excel v Smith is better (and hosted by the Prankster) and an Appeal case is decided by a Circuit Judge and is 'persuasive' to a case of similar facts.

    Also read PACE v Lengyel because DJ Iyer tore apart the scam PPC model in depth, useful for lots of cases!

    And both Excel v Lamoureux cases which involved our own poster Lamilad!
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • thismakemesad
    • By thismakemesad 27th Sep 17, 1:09 PM
    • 56 Posts
    • 14 Thanks
    thismakemesad
    Okay thank you. If I haven't mentioned these in my initial defence, how would I go about adding these in and it being obvious to the judge the relevance?
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 27th Sep 17, 5:39 PM
    • 50,736 Posts
    • 64,140 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    File them this week or next, with a skeleton argument, assuming you've already put in your WS. Skeleton arguments are shown in the NEWBIES thread post #2, no deadline to file one because you don't have to, but if you choose to, file it before the hearing.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • thismakemesad
    • By thismakemesad 2nd Oct 17, 11:50 AM
    • 56 Posts
    • 14 Thanks
    thismakemesad
    Morning all,

    I'm really struggling to find a section in Beavis that is relevant to the point the in defence:

    "5b. If the driver on the date of the event was considered to be a trespasser if not allowed to park there, then only the landowner can pursue a case under the tort of trespass not this Claimant, and as the Supreme Court in the Beavis vs ParkingEye (2015) [2015] UKSC 67 case confirmed, such a matter would be limited to the landowner themselves claiming for a nominal sum."

    I am not the best reader and it's taken me a couple of hours of scrolling already with no luck. Would somebody know a particular section I can get into to use please?

    I have found the Excel vs Smith case as CM suggested above, however my defence actually stated the Elliot vs Loake, how do I write in my WS that I couldn't find a transcript so have used another without it sounding like I haven't seen the case? I don't want that to go against me, and I assume if I don't supply any kind of transcript towards that point, then it won't stand without it? I've put the point below:

    "3. The claimant might argue that Elliott vs Loake is applicable in identifying the registered keeper as the driver. This will be refuted as the Claimant has adduced no evidence at all as to the identity of the driver and Elliott v Loake was a criminal case turning on specific facts and forensic evidence as to who was driving the vehicle on the day on question. There is no similarity to this claim.
    3b. Case Reference: C8DP37F1, Stockport, Excel v Mr C"

    Think I'm close. It'll be a big relief just to have this out the way whatever the outcome!
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 2nd Oct 17, 12:02 PM
    • 50,736 Posts
    • 64,140 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    You can search the Supreme Court decision for the word 'trespasser' or 'trespass' (control & F to find).

    I have found the Excel vs Smith case as CM suggested above, however my defence actually stated the Elliot vs Loake, how do I write in my WS that I couldn't find a transcript so have used another without it sounding like I haven't seen the case? I don't want that to go against me, and I assume if I don't supply any kind of transcript towards that point, then it won't stand without it?
    Just state that:

    Cases which support my defence point, that a keeper cannot be held liable for a parking charge issued outwith the POFA, include a persuasive Appeal case in Excel v Smith (exhibit number xx) and also recent decisions on the same fact of law, in Excel v Lamoureux (exhibit number xx) and VCS v Quayle (exhibit number xx).

    All are found in the Parking Prankster's case law, page number two.

    You don't have to explain why you are producing those transcripts instead of the one referenced.

    You will also need the Beavis sign image, easy to find, to show a clear and large lettering sign.

    And you will need the words from Henry Greenslade from the POPLA Annual Report 2015.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • thismakemesad
    • By thismakemesad 2nd Oct 17, 12:28 PM
    • 56 Posts
    • 14 Thanks
    thismakemesad
    Weirdly starting to get nervous for this now. I'm not usually a nervous person but I just feel a bit underprepared despite it being a couple of weeks off. I'm a little unclear as to whether to mention the driver's reason for being late back to the car or whether that confuses the matter. If the judge mentions it, is it bad for me to say that the driver was late back because of a work reason (as discussed earlier in this thread) or do I stick with the guns of the site being badly signed and not answer that question? I'm not sure if answering that question makes everything else irrelevant?
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 2nd Oct 17, 12:32 PM
    • 50,736 Posts
    • 64,140 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    No need to discuss if or why the driver was late back. You are defending against the validity of the charge and the fact there was no contract formed.

    Everyone gets nervous, and everyone gets through it. At least it will be decided!
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • thismakemesad
    • By thismakemesad 2nd Oct 17, 1:06 PM
    • 56 Posts
    • 14 Thanks
    thismakemesad
    Thank you for the above, I have the Beavis Sign and I also have the words from Henry Greenslade (pages 1, 12, 13).

    Can the WS be more informal than the defence? I don't know how much more I can write that isn't already stated perfectly in the defence and so I'm just wanting to stick my exhibits in there more than anything additional. And explain why that exhibit is relevant to the point it is there for. Am I right in thinking little more than this is needed? Other than laying the document out in the recommended format shown here in #69:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=72186852#post72186852
    • thismakemesad
    • By thismakemesad 2nd Oct 17, 1:39 PM
    • 56 Posts
    • 14 Thanks
    thismakemesad

    Just state that:

    Cases which support my defence point, that a keeper cannot be held liable for a parking charge issued outwith the POFA, include a persuasive Appeal case in Excel v Smith (exhibit number xx) and also recent decisions on the same fact of law, in Excel v Lamoureux (exhibit number xx) and VCS v Quayle (exhibit number xx).
    [/I]
    Originally posted by Coupon-mad
    I'm not sure what would be in the Exhibit here. A transcript?
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 2nd Oct 17, 2:59 PM
    • 50,736 Posts
    • 64,140 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Three transcripts, (or four, as Excel v Lamoureux was two cases - he posts as Lamilad here!).

    From the Prankster's case law.
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 02-10-2017 at 5:46 PM.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

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