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  • FIRST POST
    • thismakemesad
    • By thismakemesad 25th Jan 17, 12:49 PM
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    thismakemesad
    SIP Parking / Gladstones Court Claim / Defence Stage
    • #1
    • 25th Jan 17, 12:49 PM
    SIP Parking / Gladstones Court Claim / Defence Stage 25th Jan 17 at 12:49 PM
    Good afternoon all,

    A parking ticket was received last year (14/10/16) on Cable Street Manchester - In this circumstance the driver was in Manchester and paid for 3 hours parking. the driver was late back due to a hold up at work, But they made it back within the hour. There is now a final reminder on the ticket.
    The bill now stands at £125 but because it has been left so long I don't think they will listen to anything as it is so far past the ticket. Any advice??

    Does anybody know the landowner so I could email and explain the situation? I've heard that gets better results?
    Last edited by thismakemesad; 10-05-2017 at 11:52 PM. Reason: New information
Page 2
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 1st Feb 17, 11:58 AM
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    Coupon-mad
    Pretty much it's turn up and defend and we find almost everyone wins, with a forum defence & advice to back them.

    You can't negotiate except sometimes with a landowner - not with SIP or Gladstones, they would spot the desperation and hold out for silly money (more than a Judge would likely award even if you lost).
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Redx
    • By Redx 1st Feb 17, 12:08 PM
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    Redx
    I doubt that you would be paying the multi-millionaire that owns these car parks

    you would be paying the par@sites employed by the owner or the M.A. to "manage" the onsite parking , so if that is SIP then its paying SIP, the contractor

    after all , if you pay EASYJET for a ticket to Barcelona you are not paying them for the jet fuel, they are paying B.P. or TEXACO or SHELL or whoever they contract for the fuel itself to be put in the aircraft

    very few car par owners actually manage their own parking arrangements , its all sub-contracted out

    generally speaking , they want their pound of flesh and will rarely settle for less than the demands they send out and Gladstones get paid regardless as they are advising the client and issuing roboclaims on a massive scale

    bargepole explains it more in this recent thread

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5533125&page=13
    Last edited by Redx; 01-02-2017 at 12:12 PM.
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • thismakemesad
    • By thismakemesad 18th Apr 17, 3:30 PM
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    thismakemesad
    Gladstones Letter Received
    So after some considerable time debating what to do, I've waited for the letter as previously stated, and there is a Letter Before Claim from Gladstones.

    They have written what I imagine is the usual, about their client writing to request a payment and the amounts are still outstanding. The remainder of the letter goes as follows:

    'The debts relate to parking charges (detailed above) for which you are liable. Full details of the charges have previously been provided to you within the Parking Charge Notices and/or Notices to Driver/Keeper that have been served upon you. The Claimant will rely on these documents in the forthcoming action against you.

    We refer you to the Practice Direction for Pre-Action Conduct under the Civil Procedure Rules and in particular paragraph 13-16 of the same which concerns the Court's powers to impose sanctions for any failure to comply.

    We now require you to pay the full amount within 14 days. Alternatively, you should provide an acknowledgement of receipt of this letter and a full written response within 14 days. Your response should provide your full account of the circumstances that have led to the charges being imposed and should include confirmation as to who the driver(s) of the vehicle were at the time of each incident and a current address for service for each driver. Unless a satisfactory response is provided, we are instructed to start proceedings against you without any further notice in order to recover amounts due and costs associated with the recovery of them. The amount that is claimed may therefore increase in terms of costs and any interest that is recoverable.'


    To reiterate, the driver received the ticket after paying for 3 hours, and failed to return for 40 minutes due to a work commitment that prevented.
    Admittedly the driver should not have left the ticket without contact but it's not time to make a move on responding I feel.
    Do you have any recommendations on how to proceed?
    Not sure if this needs a new thread to refresh it so people can see?
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 18th Apr 17, 3:43 PM
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    Umkomaas
    Not sure if this needs a new thread to refresh it so people can see?
    It does not need a new thread, otherwise all context/background is lost and no regular is going to be flicking back and to between different threads to make sense of everything. We are dealing with 50+ different cases each day and it's impossible to remember in detail what individual cases are about, without back-referencing earlier posts. Any time a new post appears on this thread, the thread is automatically bumped to the top of the forum thread list.

    A formal LBC needs to be responded to, you need to deny any debt exists and any court claim made by the PPC will be vigorously and robustly defended. What you don't need to do is any of this:

    Your response should provide your full account of the circumstances that have led to the charges being imposed and should include confirmation as to who the driver(s) of the vehicle were at the time of each incident and a current address for service for each driver.
    Post #6 of this thread shows a response to a Gladstones LBC for you to use as a framework against which to pen your own.

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=72403840&highlight=gladstones+lbc +response#post72403840

    Unless a satisfactory response is provided, we are instructed to start proceedings against you without any further notice
    A 'satisfactory response' can only be written on a cheque! SIP have become litigious more recently, so work on the basis that court papers will follow, but they can be defended, there's help here from court-savvy regulars and the forum has seen off 99% of Gladstones claims.
    Last edited by Umkomaas; 18-04-2017 at 3:47 PM.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • thismakemesad
    • By thismakemesad 19th Apr 17, 11:48 PM
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    thismakemesad
    Thank You Umkomaas
    Thank you very much! I'll get cracking on the letter tomorrow, should I post it here? Or simply adapt the one there?
    Is it a problem if they recognise it as a letter they have had before with different details?

    All the best
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 20th Apr 17, 12:10 AM
    • 13,594 Posts
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    Umkomaas
    should I post it here? Or simply adapt the one there?
    You can post it here for comment, but don't be dependent on a response. The forum is manic at times and threads can easily disappear down the forum list very quickly as new ones (or answered ones) emerge.

    For example, today the small handful of regulars have dealt with 75 different threads, some of which have more than 5-10 inputs, some with complex responses. Do the math! Additionally some of the regulars are also active, in parallel, on PePiPoo.

    It can get overwhelming. Just look at how late (silly o'clock) stalwart Coupon-mad is working on stuff - every night, 7 days a week.

    Jeez is that the time - and I can often be up to 2 hours ahead of everyone!
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • thismakemesad
    • By thismakemesad 21st Apr 17, 4:09 PM
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    thismakemesad
    Hi all,

    Response below as suggested. I'll get it in the post ASAP if approved and appropriate.
    I assume at this point, specifics on my situation will not be needed? Just requesting the correct and full information?

    Dear Sirs

    Re: PCN XXXXXXXX – Letter Before County Court Claim

    I am writing to acknowledge receipt of your Letter Before Claim dated 12th April 2017.

    Firstly, I deny any debt to Sip Parking Limited and any court proceedings will be vigorously and robustly defended.

    Secondly, in reading your letter I do not believe (in reading through the Practice Direction for Pre-Action Conduct) that it is fully compliant with the Practice Direction: it is in fact woefully defective and possibly a deliberate attempt to mislead the recipient.

    Please therefore provide a Letter Before Claim which complies with the requirements of the Practice Direction: areas which you are not compliant are listed below (reference Practise Direction, Annex A Para 2):

    2.1 The claimant’s letter should give concise details about the matter, allowing the defendant to understand and investigate the issues without needing to request further information. The letter should include:
    (1) the claimant’s full name and address;
    (2) the basis on which the claim is made (i.e. why the claimant says the defendant is liable): Contract Claim, Trespass Claim or other;
    (3) a clear summary of the facts on which the claim is based: why exactly has the defendant been charged;
    (4) what the claimant wants from the defendant;
    (5) any financial loss claimed with an explanation of how the amount has been calculated (including any increases from the original amount claimed); and
    (6) all photographic and physical evidence taken, provided to IAS. Has any of this information been withheld from the defendant as appellant, if so, the defendant wishes to see the entire ‘case’ as IAS saw.

    2.2 The letter should also:
    (1) list fully the essential documents on which the claimant intends to rely. You cannot presume that all the documents you will rely on are in my possession. I do acknowledge that once I have submitted my defence then further documents in rebuttal maybe submitted by the claimant;
    (2) set out the form of any further ADR (if any) that the claimant considers the most suitable and invite the defendant to agree to this;

    Please confirm that your client's contract with the land-holder includes specific authority to take legal action and that this will be produced for the court. I also require an explanation/justification for any additional charges added to the original including confirmation that these have already been invoiced and paid to any third parties involved.

    When I receive the documents and your explanations, I will be in a better position to make a more detailed response. It would be unreasonable to proceed with litigation before you have clarified your client's cause of action.

    I look forward to your response

    Yours faithfully
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 22nd Apr 17, 12:22 AM
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    Coupon-mad
    (reference Practise Direction, Annex A Para 2)
    It's practice not practise.

    But that's a really old letter, there is no Annex A. I have no idea why people keep using this old letter, time an again, instead of one of the better, more recent ones. This is covered on lots of other Gladstones threads, try searching 'Annex Gladstones LBCCC' or similar.

    You will learn far more from other threads after searching, than on this thread alone. Expect a claim anyway but I would send a more relevant letter, read other threads just like yours, more recent ones than wherever that came from.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • thismakemesad
    • By thismakemesad 5th May 17, 12:16 PM
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    thismakemesad
    Hi guys,
    I unfortunately couldn't login to my account right after I sent that last message and couldn't wait any longer for moneysavingexpert to reply (problem with my email account so couldn't change password). And as it was the final day, I sent that letter above
    Has this created a big problem with my case??

    I also received a County Court Claim Form. The total amount is £240.76. I have 14 days from the 02 May 2017 to reply. What would be the next step in this process?
    Do I fill in the Defence and Counterclaim form online at the back? If so, I assume I submit a Defence at the same time?
    Last edited by thismakemesad; 05-05-2017 at 2:01 PM.
    • thismakemesad
    • By thismakemesad 5th May 17, 1:05 PM
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    thismakemesad
    [IMG]<a href="http://tinypic.com?ref=1eugbd" target="_blank"><img src="http://i68.tinypic.com/1eugbd.png" border="0" alt="Image and video hosting by TinyPic"></a>[/IMG]

    This is the car park in question, the driver was parked where the silver car is closest, facing the road.
    This was taken a month before the ticket was issued and the driver remembers a much larger billboard type sign right next to the ticket machine which doesn't appear in this picture.

    The fact the driver was facing the road meant they had this view below and would have had to be looked behind and past other cars to have seen the sign with information on it.

    [IMG]<a href="http://tinypic.com?ref=2eewjg1" target="_blank"><img src="http://i66.tinypic.com/2eewjg1.png" border="0" alt="Image and video hosting by TinyPic"></a>[/IMG]

    I hope this helps?
    • thismakemesad
    • By thismakemesad 10th May 17, 12:03 PM
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    • 6 Thanks
    thismakemesad
    Hi guys,
    Should I start a new thread for this? I'm not sure if it doesn't get seen anymore because it is older?

    I've been to visit the site where the drive received the ticket as I was back in the area and I didn't realise how bad the signage was. The signs are tiny and about 10 foot in the air. Where the driver was parked at the location explained above which meant the driver was facing the road and there was literally no signs in front in view.
    I feel very confident the case could win on the basis of what I've seen. I have also drafted a defence but not sure what to put into the defence regarding the signs. I think I have found valid points for everything else regarding the claim, should I post?

    Thanks guys!
    • thismakemesad
    • By thismakemesad 11th May 17, 12:09 AM
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    thismakemesad
    Hi everybody,

    I hope this is okay, I am in need of a defence for a claim Gladstones are making regarding to a SIP Parking ticket a driver received in Manchester October 2016.
    I was issued a court claim letter 02/05/17 and have 14 days to submit a defence but haven't heard anything back from my other thread I figured maybe it was too far down the list as it's an older post? Sorry if this isn't okay to repost.

    Summary:
    The driver paid for 3 hours parking, was held up half an hour with work and couldn't get back in time, thus receiving a ticket. The signage at this car park (as shown in google maps, Cable Street, Manchester) is really poor and the driver was parked where the silver Toyota can be seen here:

    https://www.google.com/maps/@53.4859901,-2.2340452,3a,75y,40.01h,84.45t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s8jv4wnZjukjFIpl5dHaDdg!2e0!7i1 3312!8i6656

    The driver was parked facing the road and there were no direct signs in front and the signs in the main car park were very scarce.
    I'm not sure however if the case can be won on that basis as a ticket WAS purchased and that kind of suggests the driver saw and and accepted the terms?

    I have drafted a defence against the Gladstones claim which I shall stick in a separate post below. But I don't have anything about the signs in there. I have until the 16th to submit this defence (14 days after the letters was dated).

    Any help would be greatly received!
    I did see recently that somebody had lost against SIP Parking and Gladstones so I'm a bit nervous now

    Thanks in advance
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 11th May 17, 5:09 AM
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    Umkomaas
    Have you acknowledged service of the court papers? If not, do that immediately as that will give you a further 14 days to construct your defence. Do not put anything in the defence box at this stage - this will come later.

    The forum really is about handling private parking tickets; it is not about dealing with small claims court issues, although there are a very small number of our regulars who have experience and/or prepared to deal with the more complex issues, but you won't get the same number of responses or in such quick time as general parking issues are dealt with.

    So there's no 'defence please!' off the shelf you'll be handed, you will need to do significant levels of research and drafting to provide those able to advise something to go on.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • thismakemesad
    • By thismakemesad 12th May 17, 11:32 AM
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    thismakemesad
    My apologies Umkomaas, my mistake for seeing it in other forums and assumed thats what these forums were for 🙏🏼 Court Papers replied to yes
    With that in mind, my defence draft is here, and hopefully somebody can help:

    It is admitted that the Defendant is the registered keeper of the vehicle in question. However, the claimant has no cause for action against the Defendant on the following grounds.

    The Defendant invites the court to strike this claim out as it is in breach of pre court protocols in relation to the particulars of claim under Practice Direction 16, set out by the Ministry of Justice and also Civil Procedure Rules (CPR) under 16.4.
    1b. The Defendant also disputes that the Claimant has incurred the stated additional costs of £50 and it is to be put to strict proof that they have actually been incurred. If they have been incurred, the Claimant has described them as "Legal Representatives Costs” and The Particulars of Claim are incompetent in disclosing no cause of action.

    1c. If the “parking charge” listed in the particulars of claim is to be considered a written agreement between Defendant and Claimant then under 7.3, the particulars fail to include “a copy of the contract or documents constituting the agreement”. There is no copy of any PCN, Notice to Keeper or copy of the wording used within any signage employed where the alleged offence occurred. At least one of these would be required for the parking charge to be enforced under the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4.
    1d. In accordance with CPR, the particulars of claim are also in breach of part 16.4. The particulars are extremely sparse; divulge no course of action, nor sufficient detail as to why the charge arose, what the original charge was, what the alleged contract was; nothing that could be considered a fair exchange of information. The vague particulars of claim disclose no clear cause of action.
    1e. Under Practice Direction – Pre-Action Conduct and Protocols 6c, the Claimant has failed to disclose ”key documents relevant to the issues in dispute” or followed legislative procedure outlined in the Protections of Freedom Act 2012, Schedule 4.

    2. The Claimant has also failed to comply with the Protections of Freedom Act 2012 (PoFA 2012) under Schedule 4. The Claimant has failed to identify the driver and has chosen to pursue the registered keeper.
    2b. The Claimant has also failed to supply evidence that a Notice to Driver has been issued which would result in a breach of Schedule 4, paragraph 7.

    3. The claimant might argue that Elliott vs Loake is applicable in identifying the registered keeper as the driver. This will be refuted as the registered keeper has not admitted to being the driver and forensic evidence cannot be relied on in small claims court. 
3b. Case Reference: http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/2016/10/excel-parking-youve-been-gladstoned.html

    4. The signage on and around the site in question was unclear and not prominent and did not meet the British Parking Association (BPA) Code of Practice or the Independent Parking Committee (IPC) Code of Practice. The Claimant was a member of the IPC at the time and committed to follow its requirements. Therefore no contract has been formed with driver to pay the amount demanded by SiP Parking Ltd, or any additional fee charged if unpaid in 28 days.

    5. The Claimant has failed to supply evidence or proof that there is sufficient interest in the land or that there are specific terms in its contract to bring the claim. The proper claimant is the landowner.
    5a.As a third-party agent, it is the responsibility of the Claimant to provide evidence of their strict legal right to bring a claim either as the landowner or as agent of the landholder. The Claimant has failed to supply any forthcoming evidence that they are the landowner or that they are authorised;
    “under or by virtue of arrangements made by the owner or occupier of the land, to enter into a contract with the driver requiring the payment of parking charges in respect of the parking of the vehicle on the land” under PoFA 2012, Schedule 4.2.
    5b. If the driver on the date of the event was considered to be a trespasser if not allowed to park there, then only the landowner can pursue a case under the tort of trespass not this Claimant, and as the Supreme Court in the Beavis vs ParkingEye (2015) [2015] UKSC 67 case confirmed, such a matter would be limited to the landowner themselves claiming for a nominal sum.

    6. No sum payable to this Claimant was accepted nor even known about by any driver; as they were not given a fair opportunity to discover the onerous terms by which they would later be bound.

    7. Should the court deem the particulars of claim adequate, the Defendant intends to submit a part 18 request as the Claimant has failed to submit adequate evidence with which to defend the cases particulars over.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 12th May 17, 11:50 PM
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    Coupon-mad
    This will be refuted as the registered keeper has not admitted to being the driver
    I don't like that phrase, it sounds disingenuous, like you are refusing (even though the burden is not yours). Better to say:

    This will be refuted as the Claimant has adduced no evidence at all as to the identity of the driver and Elliott v Loake was a criminal case turning on specific facts and forensic evidence as to who was driving the vehicle on the day on question. There is no similarity to this claim.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • thismakemesad
    • By thismakemesad 15th May 17, 3:13 PM
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    thismakemesad
    Apologies for the late reply, I have been away.

    I like your point CM thank you.
    Is there anything I can include regarding the fact the driver was late back after purchasing a ticket? Anything regarding the signs at the images I've linked above that would stand as to making the contract invalid?

    Or is the above a good stead for a case?
    • thismakemesad
    • By thismakemesad 15th May 17, 3:32 PM
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    • 6 Thanks
    thismakemesad
    Also, I did respond as recommended from the first claim asking for evidence and information against me for this claim, and I have had no response to this from Gladstones, will this help with the above defence?
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 16th May 17, 12:14 AM
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    • 61,699 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Also, I did respond as recommended from the first claim asking for evidence and information against me for this claim, and I have had no response to this from Gladstones, will this help with the above defence?
    Originally posted by thismakemesad
    Yes you should include that and state that a firm of Solicitors, above all, should be aware of the requirements of the Practice Direction and the 'overriding objective'.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • thismakemesad
    • By thismakemesad 16th May 17, 1:39 PM
    • 35 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    thismakemesad
    Is there somewhere you recommend putting that in the above defence? Is the way you have written it above a suitable way to include it?
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 16th May 17, 7:42 PM
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    Coupon-mad
    I would put it near the top and yes (Google 'overriding objective small claim' to understand what it being said and you can then elaborate on the CPR itself, because you will have read it).
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

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