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  • FIRST POST
    • Jonamora
    • By Jonamora 24th Jan 17, 5:11 PM
    • 1Posts
    • 0Thanks
    Jonamora
    Electric cars
    • #1
    • 24th Jan 17, 5:11 PM
    Electric cars 24th Jan 17 at 5:11 PM
    Just wanted people's opinions on buying an electric car?

    Before long all cars will be electric and therfore is it best to sell petrol car at full value and invest in electric car.

    I don't want to start a new finance deals for 4 years and be complete but then left with and cat nobody wants or has resale value because all are electric.....thoughts

    Jonathan
Page 34
    • NigeWick
    • By NigeWick 7th Jan 18, 9:48 AM
    • 2,778 Posts
    • 1,086 Thanks
    NigeWick
    AFAIK you'll have to wait for the 60kWh Leaf version due in about a year.
    Originally posted by AnotherJoe
    I sit corrected.

    All being well, pick up my 40kWh 2.Zero in March. I was thinking of waiting for the 60kWh but decided I only really "need" that range once a year so plumped for what is bound to be the cheaper option.
    The mind of the bigot is like the pupil of the eye; the more light you pour upon it, the more it will contract.
    Oliver Wendell Holmes
    • NigeWick
    • By NigeWick 7th Jan 18, 9:59 AM
    • 2,778 Posts
    • 1,086 Thanks
    NigeWick
    How long were the stops to recharge?

    how would you fare on a trip to the South of France say on holiday.
    Originally posted by Iceweasel
    30-40 minutes taking time for a comfort break, cup of coffee from a flask & food and answering questions from curious people.

    I'm going to France in September. There are rapid chargers on motorways same as here, plus medium size towns seem to have them too. There is a video on Youtube of a young couple driving to the west of Paris in a 24kWh Leaf in cold weather. My plans were for using the 30kWh Leaf but I'm getting the new 40kWh variant in a couple of months and it will be easy. There is also a "one RFID card" system in France that takes in many companies offering charging. I think the rapid charger at the Calais end of Eurotunnel is free but don't quote me.

    It looks as though the 60kWh Leaf will accept 100kW charging so absolute empty to 80% would take less than half an hour. Ecotricity will be starting to roll out that sort of device this year.
    The mind of the bigot is like the pupil of the eye; the more light you pour upon it, the more it will contract.
    Oliver Wendell Holmes
    • NigeWick
    • By NigeWick 7th Jan 18, 10:17 AM
    • 2,778 Posts
    • 1,086 Thanks
    NigeWick
    It's a good thing that smart meters are coming soon for houses.
    Originally posted by redux
    Not so much smart meters but smart chargers I think. I've got one on trial from Electric Nation. It's connected to the interweb so that they can see how I charge my vehicle, and, it has the capacity to slow or stop the charge if the grid requires it. Electric vehicles will have the capacity to discharge to the grid in order to even out load when required. Charge when it's cheap and discharge at a profit. A win-win for all concerned.
    The mind of the bigot is like the pupil of the eye; the more light you pour upon it, the more it will contract.
    Oliver Wendell Holmes
    • Iceweasel
    • By Iceweasel 7th Jan 18, 11:06 AM
    • 4,296 Posts
    • 3,140 Thanks
    Iceweasel

    Not being funny, but did you mean 1.1.3.3(a), as there is no 'c', or has that changed too! [Ah, I see Z has raised this too.]
    Originally posted by Martyn1981
    Sorry about that - I've just checked the latest copy of the ADR regs and it should just have been 1.1.3.3 which now only has section (a) - b & C have apparently been deleted - God knows when or why.

    I've highlighted the relevant sentences.

    1.1.3.3
    EXEMPTIONS RELATED TO THE CARRIAGE OF LIQUID FUELS
    The provisions laid down in ADR do not apply to the carriage of:
    (a) Fuel contained in the tanks of a vehicle performing a transport operation and destined for its propulsion or for the operation of any of its equipment used or intended for use during carriage.

    The fuel may be carried in fixed fuel tanks, directly connected to the vehicle’s engine and/or auxiliary equipment, which comply with the pertinent legal provisions, or may be carried inportable fuel containers (such as jerricans).

    The total capacity of the fixed tanks shall not exceed 1500 litres per transport unit and the capacity of a tank fitted to a trailer shall not exceed 500 litres.

    A maximum of 60 litres per transport unit may be carried in portable fuel containers.

    These restrictions shall not apply to vehicles operated by the emergency services.

    NOTE1: A container fitted with equipment for use during carriage, secured on a vehicle, is considered as an integral part of the vehicle and benefits from the same exemptions as regards the fuel necessary to operate the equipment.

    NOTE2: The total capacity of the tanks or cylinders, including those containing gaseous fuels, shall not exceed 54 000 MJ energy-equivalent (see NOTE 1 in 1.1.3.2 (a)).

    (b) and (c) (Deleted)


    There is also no mention as to the size of jerricans - but one would be sensible to use 3 x 20litres rather that say 12 x 5litres.
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 7th Jan 18, 3:31 PM
    • 6,329 Posts
    • 10,458 Thanks
    Martyn1981
    Sorry about that - I've just checked the latest copy of the ADR regs and it should just have been 1.1.3.3 which now only has section (a) - b & C have apparently been deleted - God knows when or why.

    I've highlighted the relevant sentences.
    Originally posted by Iceweasel
    Many thanks.

    I used to have a large can back when I had the gas guzzler as 12mpg was not great, and the bags of sand in the boot to aid grip probably didn't help.

    Now I have to make up for past sins!
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 8th Jan 18, 7:44 AM
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    Martyn1981
    Watched (yet another) you-tube vid yesterday from Drag Times. They wanted to test Tesla's claims for a 5.1s 0-60 for the M3. It actually ran 4.66s.

    They pointed out that it'll be interesting to see what a dual motor (AWD) does in ludicrous mode in the future.

    For myself, my boy racer days are over, so I just need a decent 0-30mph for confident merging, roundabout joining and T-junction pullouts, but I'm sure having sports car like performance won't harm M3 sales/demand.


    I wonder if EV's will harm/destroy the sports car, super car and hyper car markets, as nobody wants to pay £100k's or even £m's on a car that can't compete with a 'milkfloat'?
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • Gloomendoom
    • By Gloomendoom 8th Jan 18, 8:41 AM
    • 13,468 Posts
    • 17,680 Thanks
    Gloomendoom
    I wonder if EV's will harm/destroy the sports car, super car and hyper car markets, as nobody wants to pay £100k's or even £m's on a car that can't compete with a 'milkfloat'?
    Originally posted by Martyn1981
    I doubt it. There is more to a super and hyper cars than 0-60 times.

    A friend of mine owns a tank of an American car that can do 0-60 in around 4 seconds. A super car it isn't.
    Advice; it rhymes with mice. Advise; it rhymes with wise.
    • NigeWick
    • By NigeWick 8th Jan 18, 9:25 AM
    • 2,778 Posts
    • 1,086 Thanks
    NigeWick
    For myself, my boy racer days are over, so I just need a decent 0-30mph for confident merging, roundabout joining and T-junction pullouts,
    Originally posted by Martyn1981
    I know what you mean. I keep my Leaf in Eco mode all the time. My wife appreciates the fact that I do not overtake so many vehicles on single carriageways and we cruise at 60-65 on dual carriageways. I find it relaxing compared to constantly looking to "make progress."

    Had a large electricity reading yesterday and wondered what I was doing wrong. Then remembered that over the last month I had done quite a bit of car charging. It's a lot cheaper than petrol or diesel!
    The mind of the bigot is like the pupil of the eye; the more light you pour upon it, the more it will contract.
    Oliver Wendell Holmes
    • AnotherJoe
    • By AnotherJoe 8th Jan 18, 10:23 AM
    • 7,905 Posts
    • 8,498 Thanks
    AnotherJoe

    Had a large electricity reading yesterday and wondered what I was doing wrong. Then remembered that over the last month I had done quite a bit of car charging. It's a lot cheaper than petrol or diesel!
    Originally posted by NigeWick
    Yep, take the cost of the extra electricity you used, and a back of a fag packet estimate would be, you'd have spent 4x that on petrol.
    • AnotherJoe
    • By AnotherJoe 8th Jan 18, 10:31 AM
    • 7,905 Posts
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    AnotherJoe
    I doubt it. There is more to a super and hyper cars than 0-60 times.
    Originally posted by Gloomendoom
    True, but only a part. The speed and acceleration are the major part of it , you dont find super cars with an acceleration of 10 seconds for 0-60 on the grounds the appeal is other factors.

    And it will surely be more and more annoying if you have a £250k+ super car and you get burnt off at the lights by an ordinary little family saloon or hatchback on its way back from the supermarket. (especially since 0-30 figures are even more extreme compared to internal combustion)

    Probably the lower your super car cost the more annoying since the lower you spent the more its all about speed/acceleration, at least in say a £500k car you are still flaunting your wealth but even then its still got to hurt when a car for the masses leaves you standing.
    • AdrianC
    • By AdrianC 8th Jan 18, 10:32 AM
    • 16,120 Posts
    • 14,403 Thanks
    AdrianC
    Yep, take the cost of the extra electricity you used, and a back of a fag packet estimate would be, you'd have spent 4x that on petrol.
    Originally posted by AnotherJoe
    That tax disparity can't continue, though.

    A £1.20 litre of unleaded or diesel contributes 20p of VAT and 58p of duty, leaving 41p of fuel.

    £1.20 of electricity contributes 5.8p of VAT.
    Last edited by AdrianC; 08-01-2018 at 10:34 AM.
    • Gloomendoom
    • By Gloomendoom 8th Jan 18, 10:58 AM
    • 13,468 Posts
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    Gloomendoom
    True, but only a part. The speed and acceleration are the major part of it , you dont find super cars with an acceleration of 10 seconds for 0-60 on the grounds the appeal is other factors.
    Originally posted by AnotherJoe
    The top speed would remain major factor. I can't see family saloons or hatchbacks being engineered for 200 mph top speeds, or even 150.
    Advice; it rhymes with mice. Advise; it rhymes with wise.
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 8th Jan 18, 11:25 AM
    • 6,329 Posts
    • 10,458 Thanks
    Martyn1981
    The top speed would remain major factor. I can't see family saloons or hatchbacks being engineered for 200 mph top speeds, or even 150.
    Originally posted by Gloomendoom
    Hiya. The Tesla S is software limited to 155mph, and with a 0-60 of approx 2.3s can outperform most sportscars (in speed) and most supercars in acceleration.

    Imagine paying $250k for a Ferrari, but having to forgo a street light drag race because the $100k family saloon in the next lane would wipe the floor with you?

    BTW I think the Tesla 3 does 140mph.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • henry24
    • By henry24 8th Jan 18, 11:53 AM
    • 77 Posts
    • 34 Thanks
    henry24
    That tax disparity can't continue, though.

    A £1.20 litre of unleaded or diesel contributes 20p of VAT and 58p of duty, leaving 41p of fuel.

    £1.20 of electricity contributes 5.8p of VAT.
    Originally posted by AdrianC

    And when they tax them the same as petrol cars will they still be worth buying?
    • zeupater
    • By zeupater 8th Jan 18, 12:50 PM
    • 3,938 Posts
    • 4,947 Thanks
    zeupater
    And when they tax them the same as petrol cars will they still be worth buying?
    Originally posted by henry24
    Hi

    It's likely that as fossil fuel revenues fall, the loss to the exchequer will need to be recovered through applying a per mile road charge to all vehicles ... if revenue is deemed to be needed from transport there's really no other way of doing it as there'd be no way of differentiating where the energy used for transport has been derived from or where the energy generated is consumed (thus VAT issues!) ...

    It would also be very likely that the government would see this approach as being an encouragement for owners/users of ICE vehicles to replace them with EVs to meet emissions targets .. tax the vehicles per mile for road use & keep the petrol/diesel taxation high ...

    In conclusion, the government's hands are effectively tied by international treaty to achieving what EVs offer to deliver, so no matter what anyone thinks, there'll be a combination of 'carrots' (EV purchase assistance etc) & 'big sticks' (ramping up ICE use taxation etc) which will ensure that EVs will remain significantly cheaper to run than ICEs whatever the base value at the time ... it's really the most simple & most logical solution ...

    HTH
    Z
    "We are what we repeatedly do, excellence then is not an act, but a habit. " ...... Aristotle
    • almillar
    • By almillar 8th Jan 18, 1:14 PM
    • 7,138 Posts
    • 2,878 Thanks
    almillar
    286 miles in not that far
    About 70 miles less than I did yesterday, with zero charging available at my destination - so any charge time would simply be adding to an already long day.
    I'd have needed to stop for petrol in my RX-8!
    How long were you driving for (time)? How good is your bladder?! Not stop for a pee or a coffee?

    Stopping for a charge, for most electric cars that can rapid charge (call that at least 22kw), as a very general rule, 30 mins would get you to 80%. Don't ask how far that will get you, because the answer would be the same as 80% of a fuel tank. Varies by car.

    The faster that fast charge gets for Tesla owners on the motorway, the greater proportion of a neighbouring town that will have to have all of the fridges turned off.
    Can't tell whether this is a joke or not, but just in case anyone believes it - it's rubbish.

    I wonder if EV's will harm/destroy the sports car, super car and hyper car markets, as nobody wants to pay £100k's or even £m's on a car that can't compete with a 'milkfloat'?
    Plenty of Subarus can beat Ferraris round a track, but people still spend far more on Ferraris.

    Imagine paying $250k for a Ferrari, but having to forgo a street light drag race because the $100k family saloon in the next lane would wipe the floor with you?
    The Ferrari defence would be about handling round a track, balance, and emotion. No argument in a straight line though.

    A £1.20 litre of unleaded or diesel contributes 20p of VAT and 58p of duty, leaving 41p of fuel.

    £1.20 of electricity contributes 5.8p of VAT.
    Good point. The exchequer will lose money, as they are doing on zero road fund cars too. They're happy to have that policy to get people into EVs. I wonder when they will lower fuel duty then? Hahaha! Going the other way, I can't see how they would be able to charge me differently for my car's electric in my garage, from my home's electric, and they can't just raise the VAT rate on electricity. Smart meters won't help this either AFAIK.
    • IanMSpencer
    • By IanMSpencer 8th Jan 18, 1:27 PM
    • 1,291 Posts
    • 975 Thanks
    IanMSpencer
    Going the other way, I can't see how they would be able to charge me differently for my car's electric in my garage, from my home's electric, and they can't just raise the VAT rate on electricity. Smart meters won't help this either AFAIK.
    Originally posted by almillar
    They have two choices - they introduce a system where you do pay per unit of electricity - probably any number of ways that they could introduce a charge for it, but it would be quite onerous if they forced people to use some version of Economy 7 with multiple meters. I may have already made the point but the same Calor Gas is sold with different tax rates depending on whether it is for road use or domestic. (The simple technical way that they stop cross-over is that it is impossible to get gas out of a domestic tank into a car without most likely blowing yourself up - and the replacement costs of a brain exceed the likely tax savings).

    In a technological age, it would be fairly straight-forward to put in some tamper-proof metering on car to charge per mile or per unit as preferred. EVs will not resolve road congestion and there will always be a desire to have some sort of mileage pricing as a throttle on that.
    • AnotherJoe
    • By AnotherJoe 8th Jan 18, 2:34 PM
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    AnotherJoe
    And when they tax them the same as petrol cars will they still be worth buying?
    Originally posted by henry24
    Yes for sure. But you are right they will have to raise additional tax on them somehow.

    It doesn't seem likely it will be via tax on electricity though. Some type of road pricing most likely. A mileage charge wouldn't be difficult to put in place, they already note the mileage at MOTs so even if you didn't need an MOT, making a quick visit to get your mileage noted wouldn't be too onerous. Could be done as a drive through at MOT centres.

    And by the time that comes in, probably what ten years away, EVs will easily be cheaper to run all costs included, than ICE cars anyway, plus given half the town centres will be putting bans of some sort on them, you wont be wanting to buy a new one.

    Anyway, they are just a lot more pleasant to drive. Don't fit all life styles yet, especially long range only stop for a 5 minute pee break every 300 miles, drivers, (or those who say they do that) but thats just a matter of time before everyone except the most ludicrous long range holdouts dont even have range as an issue.

    I would still drive an electric car even if it was the same cost as ICE just because its a better experience. Smoother, more acceleration, a bit quieter*, more room in the car size for size, on average since the electric gubbins take up less space than an ICE, especially those with "skateboard" designs where the batteries are all underneath.

    And for those who commute some neat features such as warming it up and deicing before you get in to go to work, or running the air con for a few minutes before you go home rather than needing to open the doors and wait two minutes before you can get in the car without being roasted (yes that seems unlikely this time of year but ...) . Little things but still nicer all round and not stuff you'd want to lose once you've experienced it.

    * that can be overrated, IME above about 30 road / tyre noise tends to take over anyway plus you've got all the other noisy cars round you.
    Last edited by AnotherJoe; 08-01-2018 at 2:38 PM.
    • AdrianC
    • By AdrianC 8th Jan 18, 2:50 PM
    • 16,120 Posts
    • 14,403 Thanks
    AdrianC
    I'd have needed to stop for petrol in my RX-8!
    Originally posted by almillar
    ...and I'd have been well through the third tankful in my old Landy. Which is one reason I didn't take it.

    How long were you driving for (time)? How good is your bladder?! Not stop for a pee or a coffee?
    175 miles, 3.5hrs each way. If you can't go that long without a pee, you probably ought to be seeing your doctor.
    • Gloomendoom
    • By Gloomendoom 8th Jan 18, 3:22 PM
    • 13,468 Posts
    • 17,680 Thanks
    Gloomendoom
    Imagine paying $250k for a Ferrari, but having to forgo a street light drag race because the $100k family saloon in the next lane would wipe the floor with you?
    Originally posted by Martyn1981
    I might be rather smug when I watched it crash on the first bend. There is a reason Teslas are speed limited... their chassis aren't as advanced as their powertrain.

    Since when has a $100k (£74k?) car been a "family" saloon? I was thinking of more affordable offerings from VW, Nissan and Renault.
    Advice; it rhymes with mice. Advise; it rhymes with wise.
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