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  • FIRST POST
    • Jonamora
    • By Jonamora 24th Jan 17, 5:11 PM
    • 1Posts
    • 0Thanks
    Jonamora
    Electric cars
    • #1
    • 24th Jan 17, 5:11 PM
    Electric cars 24th Jan 17 at 5:11 PM
    Just wanted people's opinions on buying an electric car?

    Before long all cars will be electric and therfore is it best to sell petrol car at full value and invest in electric car.

    I don't want to start a new finance deals for 4 years and be complete but then left with and cat nobody wants or has resale value because all are electric.....thoughts

    Jonathan
Page 33
    • AdrianC
    • By AdrianC 6th Jan 18, 12:08 PM
    • 16,147 Posts
    • 14,426 Thanks
    AdrianC
    How long were the stops to recharge?

    286 miles in not that far
    Originally posted by Iceweasel
    About 70 miles less than I did yesterday, with zero charging available at my destination - so any charge time would simply be adding to an already long day.
    • AdrianC
    • By AdrianC 6th Jan 18, 12:09 PM
    • 16,147 Posts
    • 14,426 Thanks
    AdrianC
    As well as buses and taxi's, China is also making big moves on light freight.

    EV Revolution In China — Next Stop: Delivery & Freight Vehicles
    Originally posted by Martyn1981
    A bit hyperbolic, isn't it?

    Electric vans have been available out-of-the-showroom in the UK for twenty years, at least.
    • gzoom
    • By gzoom 6th Jan 18, 12:26 PM
    • 234 Posts
    • 213 Thanks
    gzoom
    How long were the stops to recharge?

    286 miles in not that far, so how would you fare on a trip to the South of France say on holiday.

    Twice a year we travel 2500 miles (one way) to visit the in-laws in a 3 litre diesel. With 4 up it's much cheaper and 'greener' than flying and then having to use a hire car when we get there. As for the journey time, and planning for re-charging stops - the mind boggles.

    I have no idea of how long it would be before an EV could tackle a journey like that.
    Originally posted by Iceweasel
    We are planning on a trip to Bordeaux this summer in the Tesla.

    There is a website called https://abetterrouteplanner.com which calculates all the charging stops times. For us 2hr stints work well, our 20 months old daughter can only tolerate that long in the car before needing a break.

    Clearly if you can drive for longer stints the trip will take longer in an EV but for us it work out fine, and the 'fuel' is all free

    Last edited by gzoom; 06-01-2018 at 12:51 PM.
    • gzoom
    • By gzoom 6th Jan 18, 12:40 PM
    • 234 Posts
    • 213 Thanks
    gzoom
    About 70 miles less than I did yesterday, with zero charging available at my destination - so any charge time would simply be adding to an already long day.
    Originally posted by AdrianC
    Am pretty sure the last time you moaned about range of EVs it was a case of driving 500 miles non stop

    If you really want a 600 mile range EV it's coming, but you better start saving. I suspect production will be limited and in the UK I know quite a few people on the UK Tesla Facebook group have put done the £50K deposit.

    https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/roadster

    But I really cannot be bothered with the endless circular 'debate' these threads always end in.

    I'll report back in another 6 months or so, probably after our trip to France. For some people EVs are not viable due to true need for 500 miles of non stop range, but for the majority of people a 200 mile range EV is more than good enough. It certainly is for us .
    Last edited by gzoom; 06-01-2018 at 12:50 PM.
    • zeupater
    • By zeupater 6th Jan 18, 12:45 PM
    • 3,950 Posts
    • 4,984 Thanks
    zeupater
    Thanks. I did a search but got conflicting results. We have considered an EV as a second car but want the ability to tow. Unfortunately, very few of the EVs available seem to have the capability and a Model X is way over our budget for a car that would be used primarily for commuting.
    Originally posted by Gloomendoom
    Hi

    Just for fun (so don't try it!) ... as if by magic, a towing Tesla appears .. ..... https://electrek.co/2018/01/04/tesla-model-x-all-electric-tow-semi-truck-snow/

    HTH
    Z
    "We are what we repeatedly do, excellence then is not an act, but a habit. " ...... Aristotle
    • AdrianC
    • By AdrianC 6th Jan 18, 12:51 PM
    • 16,147 Posts
    • 14,426 Thanks
    AdrianC
    Am pretty sure the last time you moaned about range of EVs it was a case of driving 500 miles non stop
    Originally posted by gzoom
    Feel free to find me saying that...

    350 miles has been a semi-regular day trip for a while now - to see my father in his care home in Sheffield, from home in the Welsh borders. The last six months have had a lot of pretty non-stop local use when I'm up there, because I've been sorting his flat, so a lot of trips to the tip/charity shops etc, as well as back-and-forth between the flat and the care home. Neither of which have any charging available...

    If you really want a 600 mile range EV it's coming
    It's not so much the absolute range, but the dwell time on recharging. The car I used has a c.400 mile range, so I filled twice yesterday - I left home with a near-empty tank, so filled 20 miles from here, then filled at the same place on the way back to be full. A genuine 400 mile range in an electric would have saved both those stops, because starting and finishing empty would be fine, with charging at home.

    I'll report back in another 6 months or so, probably after our trip to France.
    A friend took a model S to Portugal this summer via France. Well, that was the plan. He turned back at the Spanish border, when he realised that the charging was going to utterly dictate the route, if it was even possible.
    • Iceweasel
    • By Iceweasel 6th Jan 18, 1:05 PM
    • 4,296 Posts
    • 3,140 Thanks
    Iceweasel
    We are planning on a trip to Bordeaux this summer in the Tesla.

    There is a website called https://abetterrouteplanner.com which calculates all the charging stops times. For us 2hr stints work well, our 20 months old daughter can only tolerate that long in the car before needing a break.

    Clearly if you can drive for longer stints the trip will take longer in an EV but for us it work out fine, and the 'fuel' is all free
    Originally posted by gzoom
    I look forward to hearing how you get on.

    2hr stints with enforced regular stops on motorways (even for 30mins or so) would make our journey painfully long rather than the enjoyable trans-European tour that it is at the moment.

    As for free fuel - there is nothing free in this world so if you don't pay, others must be subsidising the cost.

    Edit:
    I had a quick search and AFAIK the recharge cost for Ecotricity is £3 for a 30min charge plus 17p/kWh

    In France it appears you need to have a monthly subscription to get cheap re-charges or it could be a flat rate of €3.50 per 15 minutes.

    The whole system is still in it's infancy for folks who make longer journeys.

    It would be good to hear how others get on abroad.
    Last edited by Iceweasel; 06-01-2018 at 1:17 PM.
    • zeupater
    • By zeupater 6th Jan 18, 1:22 PM
    • 3,950 Posts
    • 4,984 Thanks
    zeupater
    ... A friend took a model S to Portugal this summer via France. Well, that was the plan. He turned back at the Spanish border, when he realised that the charging was going to utterly dictate the route, if it was even possible.
    Originally posted by AdrianC
    Hi

    You're saying that someone knowingly started a long-distance route in an EV without even looking to plan the route beforehand? ...

    If we were looking to drive that far into Europe from the UK in a vehicle with any kind of engine, the first thing we'd do would be to plan the route, identifying potential stop-off (/over) points on the way to make an otherwise boring journey more interesting!

    What needs to be remembered when discussing range anxiety is that the UK is a compact area with a relatively high population density, therefore range and fuel-stop planning isn't really part of what we normally consider ... I've spent quite some time in areas of the world where this isn't the case & planning fuel availability isn't only preferable - it's essential ....

    Range anxiety & planning isn't new, it's just something we in the UK just don't normally consider necessary, where others do! .... a 200 mile full-charge range would suit the vast majority of people/journeys with little need to charge a vehicle more than once/week, so I don't really see what the issue is.

    If you're part of the group which don't currently consider an EV to suit your own needs for some reason or other, then get to the back of the queue for delivery & accept that others may have different requirements & alternative views - it's as simple as that!

    HTH
    Z
    "We are what we repeatedly do, excellence then is not an act, but a habit. " ...... Aristotle
    • redux
    • By redux 6th Jan 18, 1:25 PM
    • 17,824 Posts
    • 22,936 Thanks
    redux
    As for free fuel - there is nothing free in this world so if you don't pay, others must be subsidising the cost.
    Originally posted by Iceweasel
    It's a good thing that smart meters are coming soon for houses.

    The faster that fast charge gets for Tesla owners on the motorway, the greater proportion of a neighbouring town that will have to have all of the fridges turned off.
    • gzoom
    • By gzoom 6th Jan 18, 1:38 PM
    • 234 Posts
    • 213 Thanks
    gzoom
    I look forward to hearing how you get on.

    2hr stints with enforced regular stops on motorways (even for 30mins or so) would make our journey painfully long rather than the enjoyable trans-European tour that it is at the moment.

    As for free fuel - there is nothing free in this world so if you don't pay, others must be subsidising the cost.

    Edit:
    I had a quick search and AFAIK the recharge cost for Ecotricity is £3 for a 30min charge plus 17p/kWh

    In France it appears you need to have a monthly subscription to get cheap re-charges or it could be a flat rate of €3.50 per 15 minutes.

    The whole system is still in it's infancy for folks who make longer journeys.

    It would be good to hear how others get on abroad.
    Originally posted by Iceweasel
    Tesla Superchargers are free to use for all current Tesla owners, and currently twice as quick as Ecotricity chargers. The car knows where all the Tesla chargers are including how busy they are, so personally I don't bother using any other kind of EV chargers.

    I do agree if you can drive 3-4hrs non stop a 2hr stint would seem like a pain but those kind of trips simply don't apply for the majority of UK car owners.

    For us our daughter has only got the stage when she can even tolerate 2hr in the car awake, am sure your remeber that for when your kids were that age!! If we do plan on adding to the horde it'll be another few years before we can think about really long non stop stints. By than I'll be looking to upgrade the battery pack to 120kWh+ which will be nearly double the current battery range.

    Looking fowards to the trip in Europe to really test the car as roads are usually alot less congested in the UK. My work trip from Leicester to Southampton took 7hrs on the road due to traffic, the UK Mway system really is awful in rush hour conditions.
    • AdrianC
    • By AdrianC 6th Jan 18, 1:49 PM
    • 16,147 Posts
    • 14,426 Thanks
    AdrianC
    If we were looking to drive that far into Europe from the UK in a vehicle with any kind of engine, the first thing we'd do would be to plan the route, identifying potential stop-off (/over) points on the way to make an otherwise boring journey more interesting!
    Originally posted by zeupater
    That's precisely why we DON'T plan too much ahead on those kind of journeys... Play it by ear, get off the beaten track, and explore the places that you like.
    • zeupater
    • By zeupater 6th Jan 18, 2:01 PM
    • 3,950 Posts
    • 4,984 Thanks
    zeupater
    That's precisely why we DON'T plan too much ahead on those kind of journeys... Play it by ear, get off the beaten track, and explore the places that you like.
    Originally posted by AdrianC
    Hi

    Then, as already mentioned, keep with your ICE as an EV, although able to meet your requirements for the majority of journeys, obviously doesn't suit your particular mindset ...

    One thing to consider though .... when the number of EVs significantly exceeds the remaining population of ICE vehicles, range anxiety will shift towards the availability of filling stations ... it'll be some time, so you are allowed to continue moaning for a good while yet! ...

    HTH
    Z
    Last edited by zeupater; 06-01-2018 at 4:36 PM. Reason: -re
    "We are what we repeatedly do, excellence then is not an act, but a habit. " ...... Aristotle
    • AdrianC
    • By AdrianC 6th Jan 18, 2:09 PM
    • 16,147 Posts
    • 14,426 Thanks
    AdrianC
    One thing to consider though .... when there number of EVs significantly exceeds the remaining population of ICE vehicles, range anxiety will shift towards the availability of filling stations ...
    Originally posted by zeupater
    • zeupater
    • By zeupater 6th Jan 18, 2:41 PM
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    zeupater
    Originally posted by AdrianC
    Do it then, but don't look to carry more than three full ones at any one time ... !
    "We are what we repeatedly do, excellence then is not an act, but a habit. " ...... Aristotle
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 6th Jan 18, 4:19 PM
    • 6,334 Posts
    • 10,475 Thanks
    Martyn1981
    Do it then, but don't look to carry more than three full ones at any one time ... !
    Originally posted by zeupater
    Actually he'd be breaking the law just having that one can in the car.

    The max is 2x5lt plastic or 2x10lt metal.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • Iceweasel
    • By Iceweasel 6th Jan 18, 6:47 PM
    • 4,296 Posts
    • 3,140 Thanks
    Iceweasel
    Actually he'd be breaking the law just having that one can in the car.

    The max is 2x5lt plastic or 2x10lt metal.
    Originally posted by Martyn1981
    I don't agree.

    Can you quote the legislation for that?

    In UN approved jerricans such as the one in Adrian C's post the limit would be 60 litres in 3 containers as zeupater said.

    For the legislation see section ADR1.1.3.3(c)

    http://www.unece.org/fileadmin/DAM/trans/danger/publi/adr/adr2013/English/VolumeI.pdf
    • zeupater
    • By zeupater 6th Jan 18, 7:47 PM
    • 3,950 Posts
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    zeupater
    I don't agree.

    Can you quote the legislation for that?

    In UN approved jerricans such as the one in Adrian C's post the limit would be 60 litres in 3 containers as zeupater said.

    For the legislation see section ADR1.1.3.3(c)

    http://www.unece.org/fileadmin/DAM/trans/danger/publi/adr/adr2013/English/VolumeI.pdf
    Originally posted by Iceweasel
    Hi

    Odd really ... although my recollection, from something I read years ago, was for safety guidelines being set at 60litres & the referenced document (not legislation) also mentioning 60litres, the link doesn't include 1.1.3.3 paragraph c, which in pre-release working group and previous release version examples I've found/read is in the form of ..

    "(c) Liquid fuels of UN Nos. 1202, 1203, 1223, 1268, 1863 and 3475 above the quantity specified in Column (7a) of Table A of Chapter 3.2 in means of containment .." ... etc

    ... However, although there seems to be plenty of mention to the paragraph in forum discussions such as this & a number of websites , I've just found this UK 2017 amendment document ... https://www.rha.uk.net/getmedia/fc5f665a-d422-4351-bb1d-48f16db2176c/ADR-2017-full-amendments_1.pdf.aspx

    .. 1.1.3.3 (c) Delete and insert “(Deleted)”. Delete corresponding footnote 1 and renumber footnote 2 in 1.1.4.3 accordingly ..

    ... suggesting that as of 30th June 2017, paragraph 1.1.3.3(c) no longer exists/applies, which certainly re-opens questions concerning the allowable volume for transporting road-fuel in portable containers for personal use which I'm not inclined to expend effort in researching beyond this point as it doesn't really interest me beyond what I've just done, however, if anyone else is interested, feel free to enlighten us all ! ...

    Oh well, such fun!
    Z
    Last edited by zeupater; 06-01-2018 at 7:57 PM.
    "We are what we repeatedly do, excellence then is not an act, but a habit. " ...... Aristotle
    • AnotherJoe
    • By AnotherJoe 6th Jan 18, 8:55 PM
    • 7,928 Posts
    • 8,519 Thanks
    AnotherJoe
    Rent a car for edge cases like this rather than buying a car that fits two weeks of the year and not the other 48.
    • zeupater
    • By zeupater 6th Jan 18, 9:10 PM
    • 3,950 Posts
    • 4,984 Thanks
    zeupater
    Rent a car for edge cases like this rather than buying a car that fits two weeks of the year and not the other 48.
    Originally posted by AnotherJoe
    Hi

    I tend to agree ... the only time we've driven anywhere around 2500 miles in one trip was in a hire car anyway ... never needed to do that one way and then expect to drive back - life's too short! ... anyway, isn't that where you allow the train/plane take the strain ?

    Z
    "We are what we repeatedly do, excellence then is not an act, but a habit. " ...... Aristotle
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 7th Jan 18, 9:03 AM
    • 6,334 Posts
    • 10,475 Thanks
    Martyn1981
    I don't agree.

    Can you quote the legislation for that?

    In UN approved jerricans such as the one in Adrian C's post the limit would be 60 litres in 3 containers as zeupater said.

    For the legislation see section ADR1.1.3.3(c)

    http://www.unece.org/fileadmin/DAM/trans/danger/publi/adr/adr2013/English/VolumeI.pdf
    Originally posted by Iceweasel
    Hiya, I went to, but ran into a brick wall of confusion, relating to dates of 2012, 2015 and 2017. I can find many references to 20lt jerry cans being ok, if only filled to 10lt, and also 'clear statements' that a 20lt can is not legal as that exceeds the max amount allowed to be stored in a single container.

    I'm now completely unsure what is and isn't allowed?

    Not being funny, but did you mean 1.1.3.3(a), as there is no 'c', or has that changed too! [Ah, I see Z has raised this too.]

    The reference I keep finding relating to HSE is:-

    The maximum you can store at your home is 30 litres. The jerry can is a 20-litre metal can. It is illegal to store petrol in one of these because you are not allowed to carry 20 litres in just one container.
    But, I can't find any HSE link to this! And I now suspect it's a 2012 statement(?)

    Personally I've not been a fan of carrying petrol ever since that terrible motorway crash/fire decades ago, where diesel carried in a works mini-bus with workers Iif I recall correctly) wreaked havoc.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
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