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  • FIRST POST
    • hairray
    • By hairray 18th Jan 17, 7:14 PM
    • 63Posts
    • 34Thanks
    hairray
    CPM Penalty Ticket Assistance Required
    • #1
    • 18th Jan 17, 7:14 PM
    CPM Penalty Ticket Assistance Required 18th Jan 17 at 7:14 PM
    I would really appreciate the advice of members on MSE.

    I was recently issued with a ticket for parking in my parking space at our newly acquired property.

    I appealed the ticket on the basis that it is my designated parking space and CPM failed to provide me with a permit, I parked from the 13th September to 7th November with no issue.

    The appeal was rejected by both CPM and their appointed appeals company.

    Our property is a leasehold, I have contacted the land owner who has told me that because I have appealed it, they are unable to assist. They have tried.

    Having read through some of the other threads on MSE it appears to be a case of ignoring them, is this the right thing to do?

    The invoice started at £60 and is now £100, the most recent letter from CPM threatens a charge of £149.

    I am a little worried about it, I just cant seem to justify paying to park in my own space.

    They have given me an opportunity to clarify if I was the designated driver when the invoice was issued.

    I would be grateful for your opinion on the matter.
Page 6
    • safarmuk
    • By safarmuk 16th May 17, 3:35 PM
    • 559 Posts
    • 975 Thanks
    safarmuk
    It's not just whether they are reasonable, it's whether they have the right to impose them in the first place, and how they conflict with the right to quiet enjoyment.
    I'd personally like to see the LBC and the lease to compare it to another estate I am working with.

    On the estate mentioned above one of the residents has just downloaded Land Registry data and the right to exclusive use of allocated bays is actually mentioned there (not just in the lease) with the bay explicitly referred to via a plot number and edged in colour in the plan in the LR documentation.

    As I have said before this is coming down to a definition of demised land / demised rights and if you have leased land it is yours and a PPC have no rights to do anything with it irrespective of what a MA foolishly says/believes.
    • hairray
    • By hairray 16th May 17, 4:27 PM
    • 63 Posts
    • 34 Thanks
    hairray
    Safarm, I recently messaged you privately re the lease.
    • hairray
    • By hairray 16th May 17, 4:31 PM
    • 63 Posts
    • 34 Thanks
    hairray
    Here's a link to a copy of the letter: https://www.scribd.com/document/348528763/LBC-v2
    • safarmuk
    • By safarmuk 16th May 17, 6:35 PM
    • 559 Posts
    • 975 Thanks
    safarmuk
    Safarm, I recently messaged you privately re the lease.
    Hi, didn't get the PM. Let me try you.
    • Loadsofchildren123
    • By Loadsofchildren123 16th May 17, 9:56 PM
    • 1,247 Posts
    • 2,125 Thanks
    Loadsofchildren123
    The lease defines the demised property as the flat and the parking space. Flat outlined in red and parking space in blue in the attached plan. Haven't looked at LR because mistakes can be made. The lease is the ownership document and it very specifically includes the parking space.
    • Loadsofchildren123
    • By Loadsofchildren123 16th May 17, 10:03 PM
    • 1,247 Posts
    • 2,125 Thanks
    Loadsofchildren123
    The lease includes Estate Regulations which include things like no dogs off leads and no ball games in the gardens. And Blick Regulatiobs which deal with things like soundproof flooring, no pets, no trades, no aerials etc.

    There is then the right to make "regulations" (undefined) which are reasonable and which relate to the use and enjoyment of the properties. Hairray has mentioned this clause before. The landowner relies on it to have introduced parking.
    I say parking doesn't come within the meaning or intention of the clause. Plus they can't impose on him a charge, nor a contractual relationship with a third party.

    So I threaten damages for breach of quiet enjoyment covenant, trespass and DPA breach.

    Apologies for any typos, I'm on my phone.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 16th May 17, 10:49 PM
    • 50,584 Posts
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    Coupon-mad
    Here's a link to a copy of the letter: https://www.scribd.com/document/348528763/LBC-v2
    Originally posted by hairray
    That LBC letter is brilliant and can help in other residential cases.

    LoadsofChildren123, I've already mentioned it on a thread on pepipoo, thankyou for making it available.

    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Loadsofchildren123
    • By Loadsofchildren123 17th May 17, 12:16 PM
    • 1,247 Posts
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    Loadsofchildren123
    It's a bit long, but we all know by now that I don't know when to stop!
    "Blick" meant to be "Block" but I think the typo was obvious.
    • safarmuk
    • By safarmuk 17th May 17, 2:43 PM
    • 559 Posts
    • 975 Thanks
    safarmuk
    The lease defines the demised property as the flat and the parking space. Flat outlined in red and parking space in blue in the attached plan. Haven't looked at LR because mistakes can be made. The lease is the ownership document and it very specifically includes the parking space.
    I have seen similar leases where the parking space is also explicitly marked on the plans and is a particular on the lease with demised rights (to exclusive us of). Sounds very familiar to the above but hopefully I get in touch with Hairray so I can compare the lease I have seen to his lease (unless you would be willing to do a quick compare LOC123 when you have a few mins?)
    • DoaM
    • By DoaM 17th May 17, 3:19 PM
    • 3,310 Posts
    • 3,347 Thanks
    DoaM
    "Blick" meant to be "Block" but I think the typo was obvious.
    Originally posted by Loadsofchildren123
    I thought you'd slipped into Afrikaans

    Whart brid, Blick brid
    Diary of a madman
    Walk the line again today
    Entries of confusion
    Dear diary, I'm here to stay
    • hairray
    • By hairray 17th May 17, 6:41 PM
    • 63 Posts
    • 34 Thanks
    hairray
    Hey everyone,

    Here's a copy of the LBC, this will be submitted to the Landowner, MC and UKCPM.

    https://www.scribd.com/document/348651556/LBC-to-MC-Hairray

    The letter was kindly composed by LoadsOfChildren123.

    I am so grateful for everyones support on here.

    Kindest Regards
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 17th May 17, 11:46 PM
    • 50,584 Posts
    • 63,975 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    That tactic should be used (the letter adapted) to robustly address the Managing Agents in all residential parking charge cases. Most MA's would panic, I suggest, but it is their own greedy fault.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Loadsofchildren123
    • By Loadsofchildren123 18th May 17, 10:32 AM
    • 1,247 Posts
    • 2,125 Thanks
    Loadsofchildren123
    Yes I spent time on it with that in mind. It will need to be adapted according to the specific clauses in the lease, but it's a start for people trying to draft their own.
    About to do the one to the PPC which will be shorter because it won't have all the lease detail in it
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 18th May 17, 10:48 AM
    • 40,412 Posts
    • 80,718 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    Hey everyone,

    Here's a copy of the LBC, this will be submitted to the Landowner, MC and UKCPM.

    https://www.scribd.com/document/348651556/LBC-to-MC-Hairray

    The letter was kindly composed by LoadsOfChildren123.

    I am so grateful for everyones support on here.

    Kindest Regards
    Originally posted by hairray
    Yes I spent time on it with that in mind. It will need to be adapted according to the specific clauses in the lease, but it's a start for people trying to draft their own.
    About to do the one to the PPC which will be shorter because it won't have all the lease detail in it
    Originally posted by Loadsofchildren123
    It needs proof reading first before issuing. There are a few typos including "cannot not", (but I can't remember where ferzackerly it was.)
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 18th May 17, 11:04 AM
    • 14,893 Posts
    • 23,351 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    It needs proof reading first before issuing. There are a few typos including "cannot not", (but I can't remember where ferzackerly it was.)
    Originally posted by Fruitcake
    There was also a 'hand' instead of 'had'.

    Great piece of work LoC. TD has kindly said he'll look at it to see if he can improve it.

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=72566357#post72566357
    Post #12
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Loadsofchildren123
    • By Loadsofchildren123 18th May 17, 2:58 PM
    • 1,247 Posts
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    Loadsofchildren123
    I've now done all 3 letters. All similar but slightly different.


    They could be cut down, but some of the detail must stay in because it all links back to the wording in the lease. I'm concerned that too much editing by a non lawyer might dilute/change some of the legal points so some care is needed.


    I've spent so much time on this now and need to do my day job..... I've asked hairray to post new links to them. There are bound to be some typos I missed.


    These will be useful precedents for a lot of people. Residential parking is such a huge problem and I agree that the key is to pressurise the MC/Landowners and to make them see that this IS their problem.
    • hairray
    • By hairray 18th May 17, 6:13 PM
    • 63 Posts
    • 34 Thanks
    hairray
    Hey everyone,

    LoadsOfChildren123 has been a great help (as you all have) and has put together three letter before court for the management company, landowner and UKCPM themselves.

    Links attached:

    Landowner: https://www.scribd.com/document/348759691/LBC-to-Landowner

    Management Company: https://www.scribd.com/document/348759692/LBC-to-MC

    UKCPM: https://www.scribd.com/document/348759693/Lbc-to-Ukcpm
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 19th May 17, 12:45 AM
    • 50,584 Posts
    • 63,975 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Perfect templates for attacking residential scam PCNs.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Loadsofchildren123
    • By Loadsofchildren123 19th May 17, 9:36 AM
    • 1,247 Posts
    • 2,125 Thanks
    Loadsofchildren123
    Obviously leases will vary in precise terms/wording, but these provisions will be broadly similar between different leases.


    You have to look to see:


    1. Is there a power to add further rules/regulations?


    2. What is the exact wording of that power?


    3. Is it defined in the definitions clause?


    4. If not specifically defined, is there anything else in the wording or in other definitions that helps? for instance, in this lease there is the power to add "regulations" but this is not defined. The only defined "regulations" are regs which are set by the Landowner and the MC respectively, and these are generally prohibitions on doing things and none of them relate to the use of the parking space (there are some that relate to general parking on the estate) - look to see if you can say that the way these regs are drafted and defined means that .


    5. Is there anything else in the clause that limits the regulations that can be introduced - in hairray's case there is the quiet enjoyment covenant - the Landowner's power to introduce regulations is not specifically cross-referred to that but that is because it doesn't need to be because it is the landowner already has that obligation, but there is specific wording saying the MC's power must not be exercised in a way which conflicts with the quiet enjoyment covenant.

    6. Does the clause say what parts of the estate/flats these new regulations can apply to? In this lease it does say this, and hairray can use that definition to argue that any new regs cannot apply to his parking space, but only to the communal parking areas which exist.

    7. Even where the lease grants the power, does it extend to imposing upon a leaseholder (and therefore also his tenant) a contractual relationship with a third party? So if it can be argued that there is the power to introduce a permit system, is there the power to impose a contract with a PPC which allows it to ticket you and pursue you for breach of contract? Very unlikely.

    8. Again, even where the lease grants this power, does it give the Landowner/MC the power to make a specific charge for failure to comply with the new rule/regulation which is separate to the ground rent, service charge and any defined payment to the MC? Very unlikely - the only power to charge leaseholders anything at all will probably be in the Ground rent/service charge provisions.

    9. So logically, even if the power exists, and even if it applies to the parking space, it is probably limited to imposing a permit system and does not extend to creating a third party contract nor to empowering charges to be issued against individual leaseholders for failure to comply.
    Last edited by Loadsofchildren123; 19-05-2017 at 9:39 AM.
    • Loadsofchildren123
    • By Loadsofchildren123 19th May 17, 11:27 AM
    • 1,247 Posts
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    Loadsofchildren123
    I've changed the letters very slightly. I've added in at para 17 this:


    In any event, any new “regulations” amount to a variation of the lease and therefore must be executed in writing pursuant to section 2 of the Law of Property (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 1989. A variation of the lease cannot be entered into either by notification being posted through my letterbox by UKCPM or by signage being installed by UKCPM.

    I've made consequential amendments in other places of the letter referring to the fact that new regulations must be executed in writing between the Landlord/MC/leaseholder.

    I've also corrected those typos (hand/had and the double negative cannot not) that Fruitcake and Umkomaas had found.

    I would ideally have made these shorter, but it would take me another half a day to do that whilst ensuring that important points don't get lost. I admit there's a lot of repetition. But it's not going to do any harm. Hopefully the PPC will be frightened off.
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