Your browser isn't supported
It looks like you're using an old web browser. To get the most out of the site and to ensure guides display correctly, we suggest upgrading your browser now. Download the latest:

Welcome to the MSE Forums

We're home to a fantastic community of MoneySavers but anyone can post. Please exercise caution & report spam, illegal, offensive or libellous posts/messages: click "report" or email forumteam@.

Search
  • FIRST POST
    • DevereauxMcGill
    • By DevereauxMcGill 8th Jan 17, 10:51 AM
    • 15Posts
    • 21Thanks
    DevereauxMcGill
    Help with TWO PCNs in Own Space in Private Residential Car Park
    • #1
    • 8th Jan 17, 10:51 AM
    Help with TWO PCNs in Own Space in Private Residential Car Park 8th Jan 17 at 10:51 AM
    Hi.

    I have read through Coupon-mad's very extensive and helpful Newbies post, and have also done some web searches, but I'm still unsure as to excatly what to do regarding my situation.

    After Christmas & new year, following a period of about two weeks of non-use of my car, I discovered two PCNs attached to the driver's side window. I live in a gated complex, and my space is in an undercroft car park, accessible only via a keyfob activated gate. I am a tenant, rather than an owner, but have been living here for nearly seven years. The car parks are now "managed" by NSGL Parking.

    The two PCNs were issued within two days of one another (by two different wardens, according to the ID codes printed on the PCNs) - one on 31-Dec and the other on 2-Jan, and were for "Not displaying a valid permit". I have always been a stickler for making sure my permit is displayed and up-to-date, however at some point (probably due to using de-misters) the permit must have blown off the dashboard and onto the passenger footwell, and I didn't notice.

    So I'm left with three choices:
    1) Pay both charges before the 14 day "discount" period is up (£40 each - total £80)
    2) Appeal for them to commute the charges into one, as they were only issued within two days
    3) Appeal for the charges to be dropped altogether.

    Number 1 means this all just goes away (tempting).
    Number 2 they'll probably refuse, and by the time I cave in and pay I'll owe £160, especially as I'll have pretty much admitted wrongdoing by offering to pay at all.

    So I feel the only way forward (and my wife insists!) is to appeal on the grounds that it is my space (or rather it is a space I have been granted permission to park in by my landlord) and that I had a valid permit actually in the car at the time of the ticketing.

    In fact, with that last point, none of the (many) photos the wardens took show through the passenger window; could I reasonably challenge them that the permit was actually visible but they deliberately failed to document it? I've since replaced the permit in its correct spot so I cannot prove that either...

    Anyway, should we decide to appeal, what would your recommendations be? I'm unsure about using the template appeal for BPA members as, as a permit holding resident I'm fully aware of the signage and parking regs there (plus one of the warden's photos is of the signage), or is this moot anyway since I'm not admitting being the driver, and the point is to just get a POPLA code?

    Or should I just pay up, since it technically was my fault for not noticing the permit had fallen off?

    Sorry for the info dump. Any extra help would be gratefully received.

    Thanks.
Page 2
    • Half_way
    • By Half_way 22nd Jan 17, 1:25 PM
    • 3,544 Posts
    • 5,002 Thanks
    Half_way
    While any possible DPA breach may have been carried out by the PPC, the management company are also jointly and severally liable for the actions if its agents (the PPC)
    The sooner the management companies start getting stung as a result of the actions of their agents the sooner PPC land will become toxic to landowners
    From the Plain Language Commission:

    "The BPA has surely become one of the most socially dangerous organisations in the UK"
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 22nd Jan 17, 5:05 PM
    • 45,902 Posts
    • 58,907 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    The AST says nothing at all about parking, unfortunately.

    Only section 4.2 - That the Tenant paying the Rent and performing the agreements on the part of the Tenant may quietly possess and enjoy the Property during the Term without any unlawful interruption from the Landlord or his agent.

    ...but this is really only about the flat itself, so I doubt there will be any comeback.
    Originally posted by DevereauxMcGill
    Sounds good to me. I don't read that as only referring to the flat itself. But I think you need more; your Landlord should have a stronger granted rights stated in his leasehold title documents that would help you even more.

    However as you are a tenant I would drop wording like this:

    on land which you have no legitimate interest in, and have not sought approval for the use of from the actual landholder, ie myself. Therefore you have trespassed on my leased land.
    Because you can't really describe it as 'my leased land' and that wording allows them to come back and say 'we do have an interest granted by the managing agent'.

    I agree with this from safarmuk:

    I would suggest you contact your landlord, if you have been there 7 years he won't want to lose you. Tell him that it is not acceptable that you are hassled in this way.

    Ask him who the Management Agent (who he pays maintenance to) is and who the Freeholder (who he pays Ground Rent to) is. Ask him to check his original Lease and to complain about this scheme alongside you. Tell him that the entity that instructed the PPC (most likely the MA) is very likely breaching his Lease and in turn breaching your AST.

    In essence by signing an AST with you he has passed his Lease rights onto you and specifically your allocated space. Nowhere did you accept the risk of having to pay an additional £40/pop to a third party who have just shown up in the event a bit of paper is not on your dashboard or windscreen.
    Totally agree. Much depends on the right in the individual flat-owner Landlord's lease and he/she might even own the bay or have paperwork showing 'unfettered use' that will assist you.

    I wrote a defence for a person from MSE last month who was a tenant and when he asked his landlord, it turned out his landlord flat-owner actually fully owned the parking space as well, under a Deed. So the MA had no business letting the PPC loose in that owned bay...that defence was fun to write and so will the claim, if he chooses to make a claim against the PPC and MA afterwards.
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 22-01-2017 at 5:07 PM.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • DevereauxMcGill
    • By DevereauxMcGill 24th Jan 17, 4:32 PM
    • 15 Posts
    • 21 Thanks
    DevereauxMcGill
    Thanks Coupon-mad. I will drop/alter the line you hilighted. And thanks to safarmuk and everyone else who have offered advice.

    The first ticket appeal is due tomorrow (day 26) so I'll need to settle on something quickly.

    As it happens we're moving out of the flat anyway in a couple of weeks. But we're on good terms with our landlord so will write to him with the details and ask him to check his terms. Regarding the move, I will need to send my current address (i.e. the keeper's address) with my appeal email. I should then write to them once we move with our new address, right?

    I'll let you know how the appeal goes.
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 24th Jan 17, 6:45 PM
    • 12,705 Posts
    • 19,558 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    Keep the PPC informed of any change of address (for the next 6 years if this remains unresolved) to ensure that any court proceedings letters are not sent to a former address which are not forwarded to you, which will potentially trigger a default judgment and CCJ, trashing your credit rating.
    NEWBIES - wise up - DO NOT IGNORE A PARKING CHARGE NOTICE - you have been warned!

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.

    Please note: I am NOT involved in any 'paid for' appeals service.
    • DevereauxMcGill
    • By DevereauxMcGill 24th Jan 17, 8:13 PM
    • 15 Posts
    • 21 Thanks
    DevereauxMcGill
    Here is my edited appeal text, after removing any reference to "my land", and reordering a bit to keep the original template appeal text apart from the extra stuff about the lease.

    Dear Sirs

    Re: PCN No. .....

    I challenge this 'PCN' as keeper of the car.

    I believe that your signs fail the test of 'large lettering' and prominence, as established in ParkingEye Ltd v Beavis. Your unremarkable and obscure signs were not seen by the driver, are in very small print and the terms are not readable to drivers.

    Further, I understand you do not own the car park and you have given me no information about your policy with the landowner or on site businesses, to cancel such a charge. So please supply that policy as required under the Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013.

    There will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn. You must either rely on the POFA 2012 and offer me a POPLA code, or cancel the charge.

    In addition, I would also like to draw your attention to Section 10 Notice under DPA, that you should not obtain further data about this VRN because I have the primacy of contract as leaseholder. Should you obtain the registered keeper's data from the DVLA without reasonable cause (e.g. if you do not fully comply with the BPA Code of Practice in terms of signage at this site, for example) please take this as formal notice that I reserve the right to sue your company and the landowner/principal in your contract, for a sum not less than £250 for any Data Protection Act breach.

    For the avoidance of doubt, I do not give you consent to process data from the DVLA relating to this vehicle, whether you have already obtained it or not.

    Your PCN draws to my attention that you are using my designated car parking area for your own business purposes. My lease allows unfettered occupational rights to the parking bay in which the car was parked when the PCN was issued.

    Your involvement on this land will have supposedly been to prevent parking by uninvited persons, for the benefit of the actual leaseholders and their invited guests. In any case, my lease makes no restrictions to the use of the parking facilities. My lease remains the same as it was when it was originally signed which means you are acting unlawfully and without the leaseholder's consent. If you feel that you have been misled by the Managing Agents insofar as they have contracted with you to operate here, then that is something you must take up with them directly. It is of little interest to me as I have unequivocal unfettered right of peaceful enjoyment of my allocated parking space.

    You will know that you cannot add a requirement for residents to now display permits (and foist onerous parking charges on my ground) because access rights and easements allowing vehicle and parking were already granted under the lease.

    May I draw your attention to the following case: Jopson v Homeguard , case 2906J in Oxford County Court where the appeal heard by his honour Judge Harris QC. This was an appeal against a previous hearing which was awarded in favour of Homeguard, in similar circumstances as those addressed in my dispute with you. The Judge allowed the appeal in favour of Mrs Jopson.

    As you have seen fit to attempt to charge me the sum of £80 as a legitimate amount for the use of my own leased property, I hereby claim the exact same amount from you for your trespass and business use on my allocated parking space.

    To prevent this matter being taken to court I require payment within 14 working days from 2 days of the date of this letter. Failure of this may result in a court claim being instigated and consequential separate costs being added for the added expense.

    I have kept proof of submission of this appeal and look forward to your reply.

    Yours sincerely,
    • DevereauxMcGill
    • By DevereauxMcGill 21st Feb 17, 3:53 PM
    • 15 Posts
    • 21 Thanks
    DevereauxMcGill
    So, I've had responses to my two appeals from NSGL and they're, oddly, different.

    The first response, to the first ticket appeal, was "allowed". I take this to mean that the charge has been dropped (there was no POPLA code or info).

    The second response, to the second ticket appeal, was rejected (and included a POPLA code).

    What could their thinking be? Both appeals were identical. Surely they should either allow both appeals, or reject them both. I can only assume that they're angling to get paid since now there's only the one charge, which would be more attractive to me than two charges?

    Incidentally they wrote "Thank you for you appeal, which appears to have been cut and pasted entirely from the internet". Not quite true...

    If it helps I can copy and paste their full responses here, just in case I've interpreted anything incorrectly.

    As the first was allowed then I'm hoping it puts me in a good place when it comes to the POPLA appeal. I'll need to read the POPLA post in more detail before I appeal. BTW, I have not received a NTK letter in the post for either PCN.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 22nd Feb 17, 1:12 AM
    • 45,902 Posts
    • 58,907 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    What could their thinking be?
    These firms don't think, this is merely the lottery regarding which computerised letter young Demi-Mae-Chardonnay (or whatever her name is) who 'works' for a parking firm (for want of a proper job) decided to send for each one. She hasn't even read your appeals or realised they were from the same person. She hits the 'computer says no' button usually but maybe fancied a change for one of yours.

    Glad to hear no NTK has arrived, that hands you a slam dunk winning POPLA appeal that Demi-Mae-Chardonnay will never understand.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • DevereauxMcGill
    • By DevereauxMcGill 23rd Feb 17, 10:13 AM
    • 15 Posts
    • 21 Thanks
    DevereauxMcGill
    Just in case anyone's interested, here is their reply to the "allowed" appeal. As they addressed the points I made in my "entirely cut and pasted" appeals it looks like they did read them through. How bizarre then, that they allowed one and rejected the other!

    Further to your appeal received on 26/01/2017 regarding the above Parking Charge Notice.

    Having reviewed the evidence provided and taken into account your comments the appeal is allowed.

    Thank you for your appeal, which appears to have been cut and pasted entirely from the internet. We would like to point out that we have been invited to enforce the rules of parking on your site, to ensure that the residents can enjoy the parking provision provided within their leases. In that respect, we request that residents display permits, so we know who is entitled to park on the land and who we need to discourage from abusing the site.

    To address your individual points:

    1. Our signage is audited by the BPA’s Approved Operator Scheme, and we are happy to test this in Court
    2. We have been engaged by the managing agent to manage the site and are happy to produce the agreement if required in evidence by the County Court

    3. We would rely on Schedule 4 of PoFA and issue a POPLA verification code in all appeals.

    4. As you have provided your details we do not need to access DVLA data

    5. Our PCN does not state that we are using the site for our own business purposes, please ask the author of the internet post to explain how they deduce that

    6. We are working with the landowner to protect the unfettered rights of the leaseholders, however we cannot do that if the leaseholder’s are not prepared to display a permit to prove they have a right to park there. As you are not prepared to display a permit, our only recourse
    is to request a copy of the lease, we are happy to ask a County Court Judge to request this

    7. The case of Jopson v Homeguard, is persuasive, however, it does not set a precedent, similar cases have gone in favour of the landowner and car parking operator

    8. You would be entitled to take whatever action you see fit in the County Court, you will need
    conclusive evidence to prove the case
    The points made above are identical in the rejected appeal. The only difference is:

    Our records show that the notice was correctly issued as your vehicle was parked in breach of the Terms and Conditions of Parking, for the second time, therefore your appeal has been rejected.
    which is laughable as the second ticket was issued just two days after the first, over the new year period, when it's quite reasonable to not use your car for a few days. Anyway, thanks for Demi-Mae-Chardonnay; If I have any more kids I'll no longer struggle to find a suitable name
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 23rd Feb 17, 11:52 AM
    • 45,902 Posts
    • 58,907 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Not sure a boy would be happy with that name in Secondary school!

    Anyway the PPC said:

    As you have provided your details we do not need to access DVLA data
    Haha, and that will be their downfall because if they want to hold a registered keeper liable, they MUST obtain that data from the DVLA ONLY and they then MUST serve a Notice to Keeper, compliant with para 8 of Schedule 4 of the POFA, by day 57. So, time a POPLA appeal past day 57 after the PCN date, with the first point being the one about no NTK being served, and you have them!
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • safarmuk
    • By safarmuk 23rd Feb 17, 11:03 PM
    • 328 Posts
    • 580 Thanks
    safarmuk
    Have you considered telling your landlord that you don't want your allocated bay monitored any more and that he/she needs to tell the MA that who should then confirm this in writing to you and the PPC?
    Worth a try to avoid future hassle. I mean seriously, gated complex ... who else is going to park in your bay?
    • DevereauxMcGill
    • By DevereauxMcGill 28th Feb 17, 5:19 PM
    • 15 Posts
    • 21 Thanks
    DevereauxMcGill
    Have you considered telling your landlord that you don't want your allocated bay monitored any more
    We've moved out now, so it's not an ongoing issue anymore. He's aware that I got the tickets, and I told him to raise it with the MA. The PPC know my new address and I will appeal to POPLA in due course.
    • DevereauxMcGill
    • By DevereauxMcGill 8th Mar 17, 5:18 PM
    • 15 Posts
    • 21 Thanks
    DevereauxMcGill
    I am preparing my POPLA appeal PDF.

    I am including from the templates the following sections:

    1. The Notice to Keeper is not compliant with the POFA 2012 – no keeper liability
    2. The operator has not shown that the individual who it is pursuing is in fact the driver who was liable for the charge
    3. The signs in this car park are not prominent, clear or legible from all parking spaces and there is insufficient notice of the sum of the parking charge itself

    I can paste the entire text here if necessary, however at the moment the text is verbatim from the templates (with dates changed obviously).

    A few questions:
    1) As per Coupon-mad's reply, should I amend the text of the Notice to Keeper is not compliant section to include their admission of "As you have provided your details we do not need to access DVLA data", and how that this is vital to their winning?

    2) I want to include one of NSGL's "evidence" images, which shows just how poor their signage is. This is the image:

    And this is the supporting text I have used:
    Figure 1. Photograph of parking notice supplied by NSGL as evidence in the PCN (full resolution). Notice the charge details are not in large type. Also the key term pertaining to this PCN regarding displaying a permit is in smaller text, and the “IMPORTANT” notice underneath uses even smaller text that is impossible to read on this photograph. It is also not specified where in relation to the parking space this notice was located.

    3) I also have a number of photos of my parking bay and the surroundings showing there are no notices to be seen anywhere around it. The images feature my car. Should I blur out the number plate, or is this OK to include. Supporting text:

    Figure 2. Photographs taken by the keeper of the immediate area around the parking space. Note there are NO parking notices as implied by Figure 1 above, anywhere in direct sight of the parking space.

    Thanks.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 8th Mar 17, 9:08 PM
    • 45,902 Posts
    • 58,907 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    A few questions:
    1) As per Coupon-mad's reply, should I amend the text of the Notice to Keeper is not compliant section to include their admission of "As you have provided your details we do not need to access DVLA data", and how that this is vital to their winning?

    2) I want to include one of NSGL's "evidence" images, which shows just how poor their signage is.
    Yep do both - make some changes to suit your case (without saying who was driving!) and add your wording about the sign.

    I also have a number of photos of my parking bay and the surroundings showing there are no notices to be seen anywhere around it. The images feature my car. Should I blur out the number plate, or is this OK to include.
    It is OK to include and those pics are good evidence so embed the photos into the 'unclear signs' point.

    Also add the usual template used in EVERY case, about 'no proof of landowner authority' because the purpose is to force them to either cancel, or show the contract.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • DevereauxMcGill
    • By DevereauxMcGill 9th Mar 17, 11:53 AM
    • 15 Posts
    • 21 Thanks
    DevereauxMcGill
    Thank you Coupon-mad.

    Here is the amended text for point 1 (added text in italics):

    1. The Notice to Keeper is not compliant with the POFA 2012 – no keeper liability.
    To date I have not been issued a Notice to Keeper (NTK) by UKPC. As a notice to driver was provided on the vehicle, an NTK is required to be issued no sooner than 28 days after, or no later than 56 days after the service of that notice. This stipulation is laid out in Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (PoFA).

    The alleged infringement occurred on 02/01/2017 and from my understanding the NTK was required to reach me by 27/02/2017. As none of the mandatory information set out by Schedule 4 paragraphs 8 and 9 of the PoFA has been made available to me as Registered Keeper the conditions set out by paragraph 6 of Schedule 4 has not been complied with. Therefore, there can be no keeper liability.

    In their response to my appeal, NSGL stated in point 4: “As you have provided your details we do not need to access DVLA data”. However as per paragraph 8 of Schedule 4 of the PoFA they must obtain that data from the DVLA only and they then use that data to serve a Notice to Keeper by day 57.

    The keeper liability requirements of Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 must be complied with, where the appellant is the registered keeper, as in this case. One of these requirements is the issue of a NTK compliant with certain provisions. This operator failed to serve any NTK at all. As there has been no admission as to who may have parked the car and no evidence of this person has been produced by the operator, it has been held by POPLA multiple times in 2015 that a parking charge with no NTK cannot be enforced against the registered keeper.
    • DevereauxMcGill
    • By DevereauxMcGill 11th Mar 17, 6:42 PM
    • 15 Posts
    • 21 Thanks
    DevereauxMcGill
    I've also slightly amended this section of text in the Parking Signs section (new text in italics), as it is especially relevant to this case:

    Here, the signs are sporadically placed, indeed obscured and hidden in some areas. They are unremarkable, not immediately obvious as parking terms and the wording is mostly illegible, being crowded and cluttered with a lack of white space as a background. They are also not directly illuminated, meaning that, for example, at night they would be impossible to read. It is indisputable that placing letters too close together in order to fit more information into a smaller space can drastically reduce the legibility of a sign, especially one which must be read BEFORE the action of parking and leaving the car.
    Any thoughts on the amendments before I submit the POPLA appeal?

    Thanks.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 12th Mar 17, 5:32 PM
    • 45,902 Posts
    • 58,907 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Seems good to go.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • DevereauxMcGill
    • By DevereauxMcGill 16th Mar 17, 4:08 PM
    • 15 Posts
    • 21 Thanks
    DevereauxMcGill
    We won our POPLA appeal!

    NSGL have told us they do not wish to contest the Appeal. This means that your Appeal is successful and you do not need to pay the parking charge.
    Thanks so much for all the advice!
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 17th Mar 17, 12:35 AM
    • 45,902 Posts
    • 58,907 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    That was quick and painless!
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 17th Mar 17, 9:35 AM
    • 38,951 Posts
    • 77,718 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    One final thing, please do use Mail Redirect so that any post sent to your old address gets forwarded to you. It is cheap compared with the cost of missing important documents, and can be done (I think) for six months or twelve.
    Personally I would always go for twelve.
    Last edited by Fruitcake; 17-03-2017 at 9:38 AM.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
Welcome to our new Forum!

Our aim is to save you money quickly and easily. We hope you like it!

Forum Team Contact us

Live Stats

90Posts Today

2,068Users online

Martin's Twitter