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    • Saggi1975
    • By Saggi1975 5th Jan 17, 12:33 PM
    • 23Posts
    • 28Thanks
    Saggi1975
    Mystery CCJ from CEL - Advice please
    • #1
    • 5th Jan 17, 12:33 PM
    Mystery CCJ from CEL - Advice please 5th Jan 17 at 12:33 PM
    Hello :-)

    I've tried to find what I think I need to take the next step in sorting out this problem I've got with a CCJ from CEL Ltd but apologies if this sounds like a stuck record to you all. I'm upset and frustrated so probably not thinking that clearly!

    My story is: - found out 2 weeks ago when checking my credit file (as was planning to get a car loan) that I have a CCJ. Credit file decimated from a sparkly 999 down to 'poor'. CCJ is from CEL (who I had to google to find out who/what they were). I've spoken to the court, and the CCJ was in Aug 2016. It was all linked to an old address I left in August 2014. Details on the court report says 15/4/15, a ref number, the debt and damages are now £356.85. That's it. I can't find any details of what the contravention is or where it took place. CEL are not an easy bunch to contact either :-(

    So far I have:-
    1) Emailed CEL and asked them to send me any info they hold of my personal details, under a Subject Access Disclosure request.
    2) Emailed the court and asked them to hold any further action while I work out what has actually happened (next stage is a warrant but they haven't issued that yet - don't know why that it and the lady on the phone from the court didn't either)
    3) Got a copy of the Set aside form that I've yet to complete
    4) Found out which form I need to fill in to ask the DVLA who and when my vehicle or driver records where accessed under the DPA. - haven't sent that yet.

    My first question is how do I find out what this CCJ specifically relates to?! If the court don't have details, and CEL won't give them to me, and they've never corresponded with me on this before, how do I find out what thr CCJ is actually for?!

    I have thought about going to my old house to ask them if they recall getting any papers through in 2015/16...... Is this advisable so you think? By the time CEL did all this I had already moved twice from the address they were writing to, and then again in Oct 2016 (due to divorce etc).

    I'm not sure whether I should just send in the set aside now stating that I didn't have any knowledge of either the claim or the proceedings and therefore the claimant hasn't followed due process and I haven't had a chance to defend myself against their claim? Is this sufficient for a set-aside or should I wait? Should I add a note saying I want the claimant to pay back the costs of the set aside too or is that cheeky?

    And should I satisfy the claim (i.e. pay them) just to stop further proceedings or will the set-aside do that by default i.e. prevent a warrant being issued?

    If the judgement is set aside, is there another hearing automatically (and will I need a solicitor for that?) or does this depend on if the claimant wants to pursue it again, or can the judge tell the claimant to do one, so to speak?

    and will my credit file ever be repaired if I do get a set aside?

    Any advice or help will be very gratefully received!

    Thanks

    xx
    Last edited by Saggi1975; 05-01-2017 at 3:07 PM.
Page 2
    • Saggi1975
    • By Saggi1975 7th Jan 17, 8:04 AM
    • 23 Posts
    • 28 Thanks
    Saggi1975
    have you / or are you going to ask for a copy of the county court letter (mcol) that you never recieved? all details inc location and VRN will be on that

    ps: make sure they post it to the correct address
    Originally posted by pappa golf
    I haven't asked but I can do..... Do I need to do that for the set-aside or just for my own information/preparing a defence?
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 7th Jan 17, 4:36 PM
    • 46,894 Posts
    • 60,220 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    You can state that you will require copies of all paperwork and pictures of the signs from the Claimant, in order to make informed decisions and statements in your defence as keeper of the car.

    Then when you go to the hearing for the set aside, have with you a summary of defence issues (POFA being at the top).
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Saggi1975
    • By Saggi1975 11th Jan 17, 4:59 PM
    • 23 Posts
    • 28 Thanks
    Saggi1975
    Supporting Statement for Set Aside - CEL CCJ
    Yes you can use that as part of your defence. Plus when you are told which location you can then put in a full defence (adding dodgy signage etc), should CEL pursue the claim again.

    We have never lost a CEL defended case and NONE from 2016 have continued to a full hearing, not when defended with our help. CEL have folded.
    Originally posted by Coupon-mad
    Hello again! So this is the statement I'm planning to send in for the set-aside, and which also outlines some of the defence pointers I'll use if CEL want to pursue their claim again. You'll see I haven't included the Beavis case as I don't know enough about the alleged incident to do that yet so it's in the back pocket for now. Any pointers very welcome please (i've used some other examples on the site so shouldn't be too onerous or unfamiliar *crosses fingers and toes. Thanks for all your help so far :-)

    I am xxxx and I am the Defendant in this matter.
    This my supporting Statement in support of my application dated xx/01/2017 to:
    • Set aside the Default Judgement dated August 2016 as it was not properly served at my current address;
    • Order for the original claim to be dismissed.

    1. Default Judgement
    1.1. I understand that the Claimant obtained a Default Judgement against me as the Defendant in August 2016. However, this claim form has not been served at my current address and I thus was not aware of the Default Judgement until 23 December 2016 when I was doing a routine check on my credit file. I understand that this Claim was served at an OLD ADDRESS (xxxxx). However, I moved to a new address in August 2014. In support of this I can provide confirmation from xxx County Council showing my updated details for the purposes of paying Council tax.

    1.2. I have also never received any previous documentation from the Claimant in this matter and I thus was never able to properly challenge the Claimant’s claim.

    1.3. On the 03/01/2017 I contacted Northampton County Court to find out details of the Default Judgement. The court papers contain no details of the alleged incident and I do not know what the Default Judgement relates to.

    1.4. On 03/01/2017 I attempted to contact the Claimant using information given to me by Northampton County Court. I was not able to get through to a member of the Claimant’s staff to discuss, nor have I received a response to my numerous answer phone messages left on the Claimant’s legal department answer-phone. This means as the Defendant, I still do not have any details of the incident the Claimant alleges has taken place, other than the summary of charges now owed, which is shown on the Court papers.

    1.5. I believe the Claimant has behaved unreasonably in pursuing a claim against me without ensuring they held the Defendant’s correct contact details. According to publicly available information my circumstances are far from being unique. The Claimant’s persistent failure to use correct and current addresses results is an unnecessary burden for individuals and the justice system across the country.

    1.6. On the basis provided above I would suggest that the Claimant did not fulfil their duty to use the Defendant’s current address when bringing the claim.

    1.7. Considering the above I was unable to defend this claim properly. I thus believe that the Default Judgement against me was issued incorrectly and thus should be set aside.

    2. Order dismissing the Claim

    2.1. I further believe that the original Claim by the Claimant has no merit and should thus be dismissed. I understand that the Claimant is a Parking Company which seeks to claim for “Parking Charge Notices” which the Claimant believes are due as a result of an alleged breach of contract for parking by a motorist.

    2.2. If the Claimant has obtained details of the vehicle for which I am the Registered Keeper, and used those details to make a claim for a “Parking Charge Notice’’, I thus dispute the claim in its entirety as I do not know the wording of the contract nor do I know the means by which the contract was alleged to come into force.

    2.3. If the Claimant can evidence that the alleged incident relates to a vehicle for which I am the Registered Keeper, any Notice to Keeper served by the Claimant would have needed to comply with the requirements of Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012. Otherwise, the Claimant is required to prove the driver of the vehicle they claim was involved in the alleged incident. I submit that the Claimant cannot provide such evidence and further submit that the Claimant does not include ‘Protection of Freedoms Act 2012’ wording on the Parking Charge Notices they issue and therefore cannot hold the Defendant automatically liable for the alleged incident merely for being the Registered Keeper of a vehicle.

    2.4. A requirement of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 is that this any Notice to Keeper served by the Claimant must be served within 14 days of the date of the alleged incident. Since I have not received any documentation from the Claimant prior to finding out about the Default Judgement, I submit the Claimant will not have complied with the requirements of the Act and thus cannot claim this charge against me as the Registered Keeper in any case.

    2.5. I further submit that the Claimant’s claim is without merit due to substantial issues in law. This is for the following main reasons:
    2.5.1. Lack of Standing by Claimant: The Claimant is unlikely to be the landowner of the car park in question, and will have no proprietary interest in it. This means that the Claimant, as a matter of law, will have no locus standi to litigate in their own name. Any consideration will have been provided by the landholder, and only they would have been able sue for any damages or trespass.
    2.5.2. No Loss Suffered by Claimant: Their claim is presumably based on damages for alleged breach of contract. It is a fundamental principle of English Law that a party who suffers damages through breach of contract can only seek through court action to be put back in the same position as they would have been if the breach had not occurred. In order to do so, they must demonstrate their actual, or genuine, pre-estimate of loss. I submit that no loss has been suffered by the Claimant as a result of any alleged breaches of contract on the part of any motorist of the vehicle of which I am the Registered Keeper. I further submit that any loss to the landholder (which would be the only party able to claim such losses) would be at most a few pounds.
    2.5.3. Claimed charge is an Unenforceable Penalty: I further submit that the Parking Charge that the Claimant claimed, given it is not based on any loss suffered due to the alleged breach, is nothing but an unenforceable penalty.
    2.5.4. No contract with the claimant: Any contract must have offer, acceptance and consideration both ways. There would not have been consideration from the Claimant to the motorist; the fee for parking benefits the landowners, not the Claimant. Therefore, there is no consideration from the motorist to Civil Enforcement Ltd.
    2.6. On this basis I believe that the Claimant has not provided any reasonable cause of action and thus the claim should be dismissed in its entirety.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 15th Jan 17, 1:06 AM
    • 46,894 Posts
    • 60,220 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    2.5.3. Claimed charge is an Unenforceable Penalty: I further submit that the Parking Charge that the Claimant claimed, given it is not based on any loss suffered due to the alleged breach, is nothing but an unenforceable penalty.
    Remove that because 'no loss'' has NO LEGS and makes it easier for the PPC to rebut.

    In fact it is my view that you should serve the defence separately to the court and the claimant in readiness for/at the set aside hearing and that the set aside application should stick to why it should be set aside and only briefly mention defence.

    At the set aside hearing you will need to be ready to state your defence summary when asked by the Judge.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Saggi1975
    • By Saggi1975 29th Mar 17, 2:37 PM
    • 23 Posts
    • 28 Thanks
    Saggi1975
    Hello again,

    I promised to provide my documents and some details from the experience: -

    1) I sent in my set-aside on 18 Jan, a notice of transfer to my local county court was issued 20 Jan; notice of hearing was issued 9 feb; hearing was 23 Feb

    2) Draft order text is here: -
    IN THE XXXXXXXXXX COUNTY COURT

    Claim No. XXXXXXXXXX

    BETWEEN:

    XXXXXXXXX Claimant


    -- and --


    XXXXXXXXXXX Defendant


    _____________________________________


    DRAFT ORDER

    ______________________________________


    IT IS ORDERED THAT:

    Upon reading the Defendant's application dated XXXXXXXXXX.

    It is ordered that:

    1. The judgment dated XXXXXXXX be set aside.

    2. The Defendant shall file and serve its Defence by 4pm following 14 days after the date on which the judgement is set aside.

    3. The Claimant do pay the Defendant's costs of this application to the sum of £255.

    4. The Claimant has permission to file and serve a reply if so required.
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    3) Witness statement text is here: -

    IN THE XXXXXXXXXXXXXX COUNTY COURT

    Claim No. XXXXXXXXX

    BETWEEN:

    XXXXXXXXXX Claimant


    -- and --


    XXXXXXXXXXX Defendant


    _____________________________________


    WITNESS STATEMENT

    ______________________________________




    I am XXXXXXXXXX and I am the Defendant in this matter.
    This my supporting Statement in support of my application dated XXXXXXX to:
    · Set aside the Default Judgement dated XXXXX as it was not properly served at my current address;
    · Order for the Claimant to pay the Defendant £255 as reimbursement for the set aside fee;
    · Order for the original claim to be dismissed.

    1. Default Judgement
    1.1. I understand that the Claimant obtained a Default Judgement against me as the Defendant in XXXXXX. However, this claim form has not been served at my current address and I thus was not aware of the Default Judgement XXXXXX when I was doing a routine check on my credit file. I understand that this Claim was served at an OLD ADDRESS (XXXXXXX). However, I moved to a new address in XXXXXXXX. In support of this I can provide confirmation from XXXXXXX County Council showing my updated details for the purposes of paying Council tax.

    1.2. I have also never received any previous documentation from the Claimant in this matter and I thus was never able to properly challenge the Claimant’s claim.

    1.3. On the XXXXXX I contacted XXXXXX County Court to find out details of the Default Judgement. The court papers contain no details of the alleged incident and I do not know what the Default Judgement relates to.

    1.4. On XXXXXXXX I attempted to contact the Claimant using information given to me by XXXXXXX County Court. I was not able to get through to a member of the Claimant’s staff to discuss, nor have I received a response to my numerous answer phone messages left on the Claimant’s legal department answer-phone. This means as the Defendant, I still do not have any details of the incident the Claimant alleges has taken place, other than the summary of charges now owed, which is shown on the Court papers.

    1.5. I believe the Claimant has behaved unreasonably in pursuing a claim against me without ensuring they held the Defendant’s current and correct contact details. According to publicly available information my circumstances are far from being unique. The Claimant’s persistent failure to use correct and current addresses results is an unnecessary burden for individuals and the justice system across the country.

    1.6. On the basis provided above I would suggest that the Claimant did not fulfil their duty to use the Defendant’s current address when bringing the claim.

    1.7. Considering the above I was unable to defend this claim properly. I thus believe that the Default Judgement against me was issued incorrectly and thus should be set aside.



    2. Order dismissing the Claim

    2.1. I further believe that the original Claim by the Claimant has no merit and should thus be dismissed. I understand that the Claimant is a Parking Company which seeks to claim for “Parking Charge Notices” which the Claimant believes are due as a result of an alleged breach of contract for parking by a motorist.

    2.2. If the Claimant has obtained details of the vehicle for which the Defendant is the Registered Keeper, and used those details to make a claim for a “Parking Charge Notice’’, I thus dispute the claim in its entirety as I do not know the wording of the contract nor do I know the means by which the contract was alleged to come into force.

    2.3. If the Claimant can evidence that the alleged incident relates to a vehicle for which the Defendant is the Registered Keeper, any Notice to Keeper served by the Claimant would have needed to comply with the requirements of Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012. Otherwise, the Claimant is required to prove the driver of the vehicle they claim was involved in the alleged incident. I submit that the Claimant cannot provide such evidence and further submit that the Claimant does not include ‘Protection of Freedoms Act 2012’ wording on the Parking Charge Notices they issue and therefore cannot hold the Defendant automatically liable for the alleged incident merely for being the Registered Keeper of a vehicle.

    2.4. A requirement of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 is that this any Notice to Keeper served by the Claimant must be served within 14 days of the date of the alleged incident. Since I have not received any documentation from the Claimant prior to finding out about the Default Judgement, I submit the Claimant will not have complied with the requirements of the Act and thus cannot claim this charge against me as the Registered Keeper in any case.

    2.5. I further submit that the Claimant’s claim is without merit due to substantial issues in law. This is for the following main reasons:
    2.5.1. Lack of Standing by Claimant: The Claimant is unlikely to be the landowner of the car park in question, and will have no proprietary interest in it. This means that the Claimant, as a matter of law, will have no locus standi to litigate in their own name. Any consideration will have been provided by the landholder, and only they would have been able sue for any damages or trespass.
    2.5.2. No Loss Suffered by Claimant: Their claim is presumably based on damages for alleged breach of contract. It is a fundamental principle of English Law that a party who suffers damages through breach of contract can only seek through court action to be put back in the same position as they would have been if the breach had not occurred. In order to do so, they must demonstrate their actual, or genuine, pre-estimate of loss. I submit that no loss has been suffered by the Claimant as a result of any alleged breaches of contract on the part of any motorist of the vehicle of which I am the Registered Keeper. I further submit that any loss to the landholder (which would be the only party able to claim such losses) would be at most a few pounds.
    2.5.3. Claimed charge is an Unenforceable Penalty: I further submit that the Parking Charge that the Claimant claimed, given it is not based on any loss suffered due to the alleged breach, is nothing but an unenforceable penalty.
    2.5.4. No contract with the claimant: Any contract must have offer, acceptance and consideration both ways. There would not have been consideration from the Claimant to the motorist; the fee for parking benefits the landowners, not the Claimant. Therefore, there is no consideration from the motorist to [name of claimant].

    2.6. On this basis I believe that the Claimant has not provided any reasonable cause of action and thus the claim should be dismissed in its entirety.
    2.7. In order to make informed decisions and statements in my defence as keeper of the a vehicle, I will require copies of all paperwork and pictures of all signs from the Claimant.




    Statement of Truth:
    I believe that the facts stated in this Witness Statement are true.
    Full name: xxxxxxxxxxxxxx

    Dated: XXXXXXXXXX

    Signed: ________________________________

    4) Both the Draft Order and the Witness statement were sent to the court where the CCJ was issued along with an application notice NS244 and the fee. I sent 3 copies of the pack as required.

    5) Claimant wrote to me during this time saying they would dispute the set-aside and if the set-aside was successful they would ask judge to restore the claim to a defended claim. Their letter was dated 13 Feb.

    6) Hearing took around 10 minutes. District Judge Falvey was sitting. Claimant didn't show. I posted the details of the order in an earlier post.

    7) The judge did ask me about in the hearing about the address update not being made to DVLA and I answered honestly about my personal circumstances at the time. BUT he set-aside as the claimant put in such a poor claim it didn't meet the civil procedures regulations. This is less relevant for the witness statement (I didn't have enough info to add it there) but would be a good one to go for in addition, in a defence statement, if the Claimant does file and re-serve.

    xxx
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 29th Mar 17, 5:22 PM
    • 46,894 Posts
    • 60,220 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Brilliant, thanks Saggi1975, a perfect example of a swift and free (in the end) set aside.

    People do not need to panic and ring up the parking firm!
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • bowcreek
    • By bowcreek 18th May 17, 5:28 PM
    • 55 Posts
    • 9 Thanks
    bowcreek
    Hello :-)

    So far I have:-
    1) Emailed CEL and asked them to send me any info they hold of my personal details, under a Subject Access Disclosure request.

    4) Found out which form I need to fill in to ask the DVLA who and when my vehicle or driver records where accessed under the DPA. - haven't sent that yet.

    xx
    Originally posted by Saggi1975

    Dear Saggi - Did you ever get anything for your point 1 from CEL and 4 from DVLA please?
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 18th May 17, 5:39 PM
    • 13,134 Posts
    • 20,498 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    Dear Saggi - Did you ever get anything for your point 1 from CEL and 4 from DVLA please?
    Originally posted by bowcreek
    Saggi last seen on the forum on 29/03/17, so chances of a response are not good. Send him/her a PM, they should then get an email saying you are trying to make contact.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • bowcreek
    • By bowcreek 19th May 17, 8:52 AM
    • 55 Posts
    • 9 Thanks
    bowcreek
    Saggi last seen on the forum on 29/03/17, so chances of a response are not good. Send him/her a PM, they should then get an email saying you are trying to make contact.
    Originally posted by Umkomaas

    She has PMs disabled.
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