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  • FIRST POST
    • sods_law
    • By sods_law 2nd Jan 17, 8:30 PM
    • 14Posts
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    sods_law
    UKPC Parking Charge - Incorrect Vehicle Registration
    • #1
    • 2nd Jan 17, 8:30 PM
    UKPC Parking Charge - Incorrect Vehicle Registration 2nd Jan 17 at 8:30 PM
    Good evening all (and happy new year!),

    I am lucky enough to be on the receiving end of a UKPC Parking Charge. I have read the Newbies sticky and am aware of the process that needs to be followed, however on closer inspection of the Parking Charge, they have got my vehicle registration incorrect.

    I have tried a forum search but this does not seem to be a common topic. A quick google shows that the vehicle registration detailed on the Parking Charge is a registered vehicle.

    What is the best course of action here?
    (PS. I do feel slightly bad for the other vehicle owner for the pain they might now endure).
Page 2
    • sods_law
    • By sods_law 18th Mar 17, 5:59 PM
    • 14 Posts
    • 11 Thanks
    sods_law
    Hi Coupon-mad,

    I think we have looked at this different ways. There are 2 options under para 6 of POFA:

    (a)has given a notice to driver in accordance with paragraph 7, followed by a notice to keeper in accordance with paragraph 8; or
    (b)has given a notice to keeper in accordance with paragraph 9.

    I have assumed that the NTD and NTK are unrelated, i.e. NTD under (a) which is invalid, and no NTK following this up, and a separate NTK issued under (b) outside of the 14 day period which applies to para 9 (because the notices are different references).

    Should I assume that only (a) applies and the NTD and NTK are related even though they have different charge numbers? If so then para 8 (c) has been not met as different information?

    Technically both of the above could be argued?
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 18th Mar 17, 8:04 PM
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    Coupon-mad
    I agree - but you need to explain that to POPLA. Neither para 8 nor para 9 have been met, but don't expect a typically fairly clueless, template-happy POPLA Assessor to spot that without spoon-feeding by you.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • sods_law
    • By sods_law 18th Mar 17, 10:28 PM
    • 14 Posts
    • 11 Thanks
    sods_law
    I am hoping this is as black and white as it can be now, I have just reposted my section, as the others are forum templates:

    I assume I am ok to submit the evidence to POPLA at this stage?


    1. The operator has not met the conditions of POFA 2012 for there to be keeper liability for the charge

    The Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (POFA) allows a car park operator to hold the registered keeper liable for a parking charge where the driver that incurred a notice cannot be identified. In order for the keeper to me made liable the strict conditions of the POFA must be met. Where these conditions have not been met, the operator has no legal right to enforce any charge against the keeper.

    In order for there to be keeper liability, paragraph 6 of the POFA outlines the conditions required to be met by the operator;

    6 (1) The second condition is that the creditor (or a person acting for or on behalf of the creditor)—
    (a) has given a notice to driver in accordance with paragraph 7, followed by a notice to keeper in accordance with paragraph 8; or

    (b) has given a notice to keeper in accordance with paragraph 9.

    The first option (a) requires a notice to driver and notice to keeper as detailed in the relevant paragraphs as follows:

    Paragraph 7 of Schedule 4 of the POFA clearly identifies the requirements of a notice to driver:

    (1) A notice which is to be relied on as a notice to driver for the purposes of paragraph 6(1)(a) is given in accordance with this paragraph if the following requirements are met.

    (2) The notice must—

    (a) specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates;

    The operator, UK Parking Control Ltd (UKPC) has failed to meet the first condition of paragraph 7 (2)(a). The notice to driver issued was for a vehicle with a different vehicle registration mark than the vehicle relevant to this appeal; therefore the condition requirements under Schedule 4 paragraph 6 (1) (a) have not been met and therefore there can be no keeper liability established by the operator for the charge under this point on the notice to driver.

    UKPC issued a notice to keeper on (date), paragraph 8 of the POFA details the conditions as follows:

    (1) A notice which is to be relied on as a notice to keeper for the purposes of paragraph 6(1)(a) is given in accordance with this paragraph if the following requirements are met.

    (2) The notice must—

    (c) state that a notice to driver relating to the specified period of parking has been given and repeat the information in that notice as required by paragraph 7(2)(b), (c) and (f);

    The notice to keeper issued by UKPC is provided with a different parking charge reference number, and different vehicle registration to that provided in the notice to driver. This therefore fails to meet the condition in paragraph 8 (1) (c) as detailed above, as the information provided is different. UKPC have therefore also failed to meet this condition under paragraph 6 (1) (a), and therefore no keeper liability can be established by the operator under this point on notice to keeper.

    If the notice to keeper was issued as a condition detailed in paragraph 6 (1) (b);

    (b)has given a notice to keeper in accordance with paragraph 9.

    Paragraph 9 of Schedule 4 of the POFA clearly identifies the requirements of a notice to keeper:

    (1) A notice which is to be relied on as a notice to keeper for the purposes of paragraph 6(1)(b) is given in accordance with this paragraph if the following requirements are met.

    (4) The notice must be given by—

    (a) handing it to the keeper, or leaving it at a current address for service for the keeper, within the relevant period; or
    (b) sending it by post to a current address for service for the keeper so that it is delivered to that address within the relevant period.

    (5)The relevant period for the purposes of sub-paragraph (4) is the period of 14 days beginning with the day after that on which the specified period of parking ended.

    The operator, UKPC issued a notice to keeper on (date) for a parking charge on (date). This is 30 days after the alleged parking offence and does therefore not meet the strict requirements of Schedule 4 of the POFA under paragraph 9 (5). UKPC has therefore not met the condition stated in paragraph 6 (1) (b) for there to be keeper liability under POFA and therefore there can be no keeper liability established from the notice to keeper issued by UKPC.

    The operator, UKPC, has failed to meet the second condition as detailed in paragraph 6 (1) (a) and (b), and association paragraphs 7, 8 & 9. It is therefore not possible for there to be keeper liability for this charge under Schedule 4 of the POFA.

    Please see enclosed the following:
    Appendix 1 – Notice to Driver with incorrect vehicle registration, therefore failing to meet the conditions of paragraph 6 (1)(a) & 7 (2)(a).
    Appendix 2 – Notice to Keeper, with different details to notice to driver, failing the condition detailed in paragraph 6 (1)(a) & 8 (2)(c), and issued outside of the condition detailed in paragraph 6 (1)(b) & 9 (5).
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 18th Mar 17, 10:51 PM
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    Coupon-mad
    Yes that's fine. Hopefully POPLA will get it.

    You will need to upload your appeal as a PDF (and personally I never attach appendices to POPLA appeals). I always embed pics and screenshots & scans into the actual word document to illustrate the point then and there, so the Assessor doesn't have to switch between attachments. Tell it like a story with pictures.

    One long PDF, uploaded under 'OTHER'.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • sods_law
    • By sods_law 18th Mar 17, 11:17 PM
    • 14 Posts
    • 11 Thanks
    sods_law
    Thanks for the advice once again Coupon-mad, took your advice and embedded the evidence photos in a nice long PDF. All submitted.

    I hope they get it, if they read the POFA themselves it is pretty clear

    It will be interesting what evidence UKPC will provide. I use the car park almost daily, and they have been upgrading their signage recently (would still fail the test I think), but I wonder if they will try that one...
    • stbrides
    • By stbrides 31st Mar 17, 6:23 PM
    • 3 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    stbrides
    Hi,
    I’ve had a very similar experience to sods_law in which I have had a ticket stuck on the windscreen of the vehicle from UKPC and the VRN on the PCN did not match that of the vehicle, it was one letter out, a F rather than a R. I had read the posts on this thread and was waiting for the NTK. The ticket was issued on the 18th Jan 2017 and the Notice to Hirer not NTK, presumably because it is a company vehicle, was received today 72 days later. Again, like sods_law the Reference No and the VRN on the windscreen ticket and the NTK (Hirer) do not match. At the time the ticket was stuck on the vehicle, I was shopping and had receipts for the time the vehicle was parked. I emailed the owner of the car park to ask them to cancel the PCN but obviously, this was not successful.

    The letter that sods_law wrote on the 18th March as his appeal to POPLA I understand, in the sense I can follow the reasoning as to what sections of POFA UKPC have failed to comply with. However, despite reading the sticky notes I must be missing something fundamental.

    Could someone tell me whether I should be appealing to UKPC directly before I go to POPLA or POPLA first and then UKPC or just go to POPLA and not bothering informing UKPC. I have not started a new appeal on the POPLA website as I only received the NTK (Hirer) today. But presumably I register a new appeal with POPLA, get a case number and then provide them with my appeal information. If I were to use sods_law’s letter he wrote on the 18th March and replace my details, including the email and receipts I sent to the car park owner, the PCN and NTK (Hirer) all in the form of a story pdf.

    A, first, second, third action list of what order I should do things would help me no end as the rest of the thread has given me the content of what I need to say.

    Thank you
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 31st Mar 17, 6:30 PM
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    Coupon-mad
    Could someone tell me whether I should be appealing to UKPC directly before I go to POPLA or POPLA first and then UKPC or just go to POPLA and not bothering informing UKPC. I have not started a new appeal on the POPLA website as I only received the NTK (Hirer) today. But presumably I register a new appeal with POPLA, get a case number and then provide them with my appeal information.
    No, you can't appeal to POPLA before you have first tried an appeal to the PPC. This is on the POPLA website (but then again there's a lot of trash spouted there about appeals...). Are you a hirer? It makes a difference to what you can add into the appeal.

    DON'T answer here, you need to start your own new thread and read the top thread first (one click gets you back to the first page).
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • stbrides
    • By stbrides 31st Mar 17, 6:43 PM
    • 3 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    stbrides
    Thanks Coupon-mad,

    The vehicle is my company car which is provided to me by the company I work for. I think the vehicles are leased by my company so whether they are technically classed as hired I'm not sure. But, if the question is whether I hired the car from someone like Hertz, the answer is no.

    So if I appeal directly to UKPC first should I just use the text from sods_law's 18th March post and re-phrase it to say "you" UKPC did not comply with the following sections of the BRITISH PARKING ASSOCIATION CODE OF PRACTICE?
    Last edited by stbrides; 31-03-2017 at 7:03 PM. Reason: Saying thank you
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 31st Mar 17, 7:30 PM
    • 45,801 Posts
    • 58,756 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Use the lease/hire appeal in the newbies thread, top of this forum.

    Again, as this isn't your thread, please DON'T answer here, you need to start your own new thread and read the top thread first (one click gets you back to the first page).
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • sods_law
    • By sods_law 6th Apr 17, 5:43 PM
    • 14 Posts
    • 11 Thanks
    sods_law
    Hi all, just to update, had letter from UKPC today confirming the Parking Charge has been cancelled following my POPLA appeal.

    Thanks again for your assistance
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 7th Apr 17, 12:50 AM
    • 45,801 Posts
    • 58,756 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Yay - they threw in the towel after less than a fortnight!
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

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