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    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 5th Dec 16, 3:57 PM
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    Martyn1981
    On-grid domestic battery storage
    • #1
    • 5th Dec 16, 3:57 PM
    On-grid domestic battery storage 5th Dec 16 at 3:57 PM
    Hello!

    Right, as discussed elsewhere, battery storage for self generation (typically PV) is interesting (to some), and gathering momentum in the UK. So here's a thread to discuss it, and watch it develop.

    I've called it on-grid, as off-grid is so much more specialised. And domestic as commercial scale storage, or grid scale can be chatted about on the Green & Ethical energy issues thread.

    So, where are, well this article lists about 20 systems that are available or should be available soon:-

    Introducing CleanTechnica’s New Home Battery Overview Page

    Jumping straight in with personal opinions:-

    Economical - Not yet. Prices are falling fast, the range of products is expanding fast, and large numbers are being deployed in some countries, either because the price of leccy is high (Australia & Hawaii) or because subsidy schemes exist (Sweden & Germany).

    Where are we today. My needs are a 4kWh system. That's 4kWh of useable capacity, which would mean about 8kWh of lead acid (LA), or about 5kWh of lithium ion (Li-ion). My research has found batts in the high £2k and up range. I need the price to be nearer to £1.5k.

    The Tesla Powerwall II, installed is approx £6.5k, which works out at about £2.2k for 5kWh, but of course, it doesn't work quite like that, as smaller systems will cost proportionately more.

    Environmental - Tricky one this (to say the least). Until storage is needed, it's not environmental. Renewable energy (RE) generation currently displaces gas generation, which is a demand follower. Once gas generation is pushed down to zero (at times) we need storage, but we aren't there yet.

    However, to push gas generation down to zero, we need more RE, and to ensure it is viable/economic/profitable, we will need storage - chicken and egg situation.

    The advantage of storage to the environment, is to take peaks of RE and timeshift them to peaks in electricity demand. On a domestic level, this works quite well as PV generates during the day into the afternoon (or evening) depending on the month, so any stored leccy is available for the evening peak 5pm to 7pm.

    That's the background, and now here's a thread to discuss options, prices, economics, and watch things unfold. Enjoy.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
Page 15
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 10th Nov 17, 2:46 PM
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    Martyn1981
    Buy your own battery but get £50 pa from Moixa?

    Moixa moves to aggregate third party batteries with new government funding

    Home battery storage company Moixa is to expand its GridShare aggregation platform to include third party units for the first time after securing over £250,000 from the UK government.

    The company was awarded £267,750 from the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy!!!8217;s Energy Entrepreneurs Fund to expand the platform to a wider range of batteries outside of its own units.

    GridShare aggregates the capacity of multiple distributed batteries to create a virtual power plant, which is intended to deliver services on demand to the national grid, local electricity networks and utilities.

    In return, participating households are supplemented with an annual income of £50 on top of the savings provided by the battery itself. Until now, this platform has only been used on Moixa!!!8217;s own batteries, with the company supporting its work with additional patent protection on aggregating smart batteries across multiple homes to provide services to the grid

    Here's a link to Gridshare, and the income paragraph, though it looks like it needs updating:

    How Much Can I Earn Selling Electricity?

    Depending on the type of battery you own you should be able to choose between a !!!8220;Fixed Income!!!8221; or !!!8220;Profit Share!!!8221; membership.

    A Fixed Income membership earns you £50 a year, guaranteed; however this is only available to owners of Moixa-branded batteries.

    A Profit Share membership will pay out 50% of the profits generated by your Smart Battery system. This is available to both owners of Moixa-branded batteries as well as batteries manufactured by one of our approved partners.

    Earnings from both memberships will be paid annually.
    Last edited by Martyn1981; 10-11-2017 at 2:49 PM.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 14th Nov 17, 10:56 AM
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    Martyn1981

    However, after a better look at the relevant bit of the prog plus some strategic Googling I managed to find out that was actually a on vanadium redox flow system sold by Red T Energy. They have a website with lots of pretty pictures but manage to avoid giving any details of cost.
    Originally posted by EricMears
    More news on RedT and storage systems.

    1MWh flow machine to save business 50% on grid imports by time shifting solar

    What is thought to be the largest operating containerised vanadium redox flow machine system in the UK has been connected to the to the grid by redT energy, with the 1MWh project expected to cut a Cornish business’ reliance on grid imports in half by time shifting excess solar generation.

    The system from redT energy has been installed at The Olde House, a 600 acre working farm and holiday retreat situated in north Cornwall, which also has two small solar arrays with a combined capacity of 350kWp.

    The project will shift the excess generation from these installations to use during evening peak times around the site, which is expected to save The Olde House up to 50% on grid imports during these periods.

    It will also create revenue by tracking and dynamically responding to changes in grid frequency and providing grid services, while also aiming to participate in the Capacity Market.

    RedT expects this type of project to achieve an internal rate of return (IRR) percentage in the mid-teens.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 16th Nov 17, 3:18 PM
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    Martyn1981
    Centrica preparing to roll out solar-plus-storage in Cornwall

    The goal of the project, as with the rest of Centrica’s activities in Cornwall, is to harness renewables and smart energy technologies to free up capacity on the local grid and provide flexibility to the distribution network operator or the national grid.

    "With the residential [batteries] we'll be looking at the fleet of residential sites and how with aggregation we might access some of those national and potentially local services,” Orme said.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 6th Dec 17, 11:56 AM
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    Martyn1981
    Ffu 15 + 16
    Forgot to post October's results, so here's a double dose. Also getting close to a year and some 12 month analysis.

    [Doh! Nearly copied directly from e-mail, which got my IP banned last time, due to a 'quirk' in the MSE protection software - so just a reminder to one and all that this issue exists, and to copy/paste to notepad first. M.]

    October -

    Electricity imported - 188kWh (227kWh in Oct 2016)
    Generated - 143kWh (149kWh in Oct 2016)
    Battery discharge - 77kWh
    ImmerSUN diversion - 8.7kWh (28.7kWh in Oct 2016)

    So, similar amount of solar PV generation, a lower bill by about 50kWh with 77kWh out of the battery, so it's had an impact - also can see the ImmerSUN is taking a big hit now, it lost 20kWh vs this month last year...

    Here are my November sums:

    Electricity imported - 263kWh (256kWh in Nov 2016) - I've imported higher than that though in 2015 - 297kWh
    Generated - 93kWh ( 85kWh in Nov 2016) - my highest ever November generation

    Battery discharge - 42.9kWh
    ImmerSUN diversion - 4.1kWh (19kWh in Nov 2016) - even worse than the 9kWh from Nov 2015!

    So 11 and a bit months in, I've discharged 860kWh out of the battery, saving me approx £155 in imported electricity this year.

    My electricity consumption to beginning of Dec is 1788kWh vs 2168kWh last year. So actually this year I've probably used more electricity than I did last year and still managed to reduce my bill because of the battery. Several reasons for this - both of us work from home more now, and the kids are definitely using the PS4 way more than we did last year!

    Will I get to 1000kWh discharged for the year? No.
    Have I reduced my electricity bill - yes.
    Will I "break even" any time soon? - No.
    Have I learned stuff - yes!
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 15th Dec 17, 11:07 AM
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    Martyn1981
    Article on Ireland testing ways to integrate storage, but I thought it was particularly interesting that they'll be trialing several batteries, to see how they perform over the next 2 years, so that'll all help to advise us better going forward.

    Domestic batteries to link Irish homes together with variable renewables in new trial

    The consortium behind the project - Electric Ireland, renewable supplier and technology provider Solo Energy, and network operator ESB Networks – will select both homes with and without existing solar PV to take part. The project aims to install batteries ranging from 7-11kWh in Q2 2018, with procurement already underway to batteries from different suppliers that could interact with both the grid and solar PV.

    Matthew Kennedy, head of Strategy and Business at IERC, told Solar Power Portal: “We will probably select three of four batteries which we would test that are readily available, could work within our grid and the ones that are the most economically advantageous while providing the most output.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • Dickymicky
    • By Dickymicky 20th Jan 18, 1:16 PM
    • 3 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    Dickymicky
    Hot water
    Better off using a Solic 200 to heat your water from surplus PV.. they have a zero threshold, so even a few Watts will be used, all the other systems have at least 100W threshold before it gets diverted. Also costs less than £200 but you do need an immersion heater on a dedicated circuit.. they are really simple to fit but if not competent it won't cost a sparky much, less than an hour.
    • EricMears
    • By EricMears 20th Jan 18, 1:40 PM
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    EricMears
    . . . all the other systems have at least 100W threshold before it gets diverted . . .
    Originally posted by Dickymicky
    Not quite true ! In particular, Immersun lets you choose your own threshold.

    But there is a reason for having such a threshold : if you're diverting every single watt and the sun intensity changes slightly (perhaps a cloud pops in front of it) then you run a risk of starting to buy electricity for a brief period. having a threshold reduces that risk and the 'loss' of energy probably costs less than you might otherwise have had to pay for.
    N Derbyshire.
    4kwp S Facing 17.5deg slope (dormer roof).
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 25th Jan 18, 6:54 PM
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    Martyn1981
    This may be years away, but if true and it can double the life of Li-ion batts, then that effectively halves the cost of storage ..... sort of.

    Researchers double life of lithium-ion batteries by adding graphene girders
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • NigeWick
    • By NigeWick 26th Jan 18, 10:47 AM
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    NigeWick
    This may be years away
    Originally posted by Martyn1981
    I'm suspecting that the "next big thing" in batteries will come along before this lithium ion improvement is viable.
    The mind of the bigot is like the pupil of the eye; the more light you pour upon it, the more it will contract.
    Oliver Wendell Holmes
    • zeupater
    • By zeupater 26th Jan 18, 12:03 PM
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    zeupater
    I'm suspecting that the "next big thing" in batteries will come along before this lithium ion improvement is viable.
    Originally posted by NigeWick
    Hi

    Almost everything I've seen related to graphene seems to point more towards academic one-upmanship & an industry intent to tie down IP related issues more than commercialisation as that's where the future money is ... pretty standard really, the UK expends so much effort on the initial thinking but leaves the doing and creation of revenue streams (/commercialisation) to others ...

    HTH
    Z
    "We are what we repeatedly do, excellence then is not an act, but a habit. " ...... Aristotle
    • pile-o-stone
    • By pile-o-stone 26th Jan 18, 1:55 PM
    • 36 Posts
    • 32 Thanks
    pile-o-stone
    Better off using a Solic 200 to heat your water from surplus PV.. they have a zero threshold, so even a few Watts will be used, all the other systems have at least 100W threshold before it gets diverted. Also costs less than £200 but you do need an immersion heater on a dedicated circuit.. they are really simple to fit but if not competent it won't cost a sparky much, less than an hour.
    Originally posted by Dickymicky
    The downside for this is that a sender unit loosely clipped to the mains supply cable is not accurate to the watt, far from it. Your sender unit might be telling your Solic 200 that you have excess solar, when actually you haven't and you end up using mains power on your immersion heater. This can cost you a lot more in imported energy than you could ever save with 10 watts here and 100 watts there in lost solar diversion.

    I discovered this issue when we had a smart meter fitted with an in-home display unit. The unit is 100% accurate because it's reporting what the electricity meter is doing. I checked it against what the solar diverter sender unit was reporting and there was over 250w difference. I changed the sender unit batteries and this reduced it to approx 60w difference.

    Prior to changing the batteries, my solar diverter was turning on the immersion heater when it thought there was excess solar. There wasn't, it was using mains electricity.

    Hopefully, one day we'll have soler diverters that can take their power readings directly from the smart meter rather than from sender units looped around an electrical cable. Until that day, I'm glad my diverter has a 200w threshold as it's unlikely to erroneously divert mains electricity to the immersion heater.
    3.68kW Split E/W & 1.5kW East solar arrays.
    • orrery
    • By orrery 1st Feb 18, 3:03 PM
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    orrery
    Not quite true ! In particular, Immersun lets you choose your own threshold.

    But there is a reason for having such a threshold : if you're diverting every single watt and the sun intensity changes slightly (perhaps a cloud pops in front of it) then you run a risk of starting to buy electricity for a brief period. having a threshold reduces that risk and the 'loss' of energy probably costs less than you might otherwise have had to pay for.
    Originally posted by EricMears
    Ditto, my solarImmersion also has configurable levels down to 0. To expand on the argument, the current transformers are notoriously bad at detecting low levels of current in either direction. So a 'zero' reading could be several tens of watts of export, or import. Having a threshold means that the unit has to see a real level of export before it will divert and it needs to see that maintained or it will reduce the level of diversion. The trade off here (for me) is that in one direction you could miss out on free leccy that displaces 3p/unit of gas and in the other direction at the expense of using imported leccy at 14p/unit - I'd rather miss a few units of free leccy than be charged extra at that rate.
    4kWp, Panels: 16 Hyundai HIS250MG, Inverter: SMA Sunny Boy 4000TL, SolarImmersion
    Location: Bedford, Roof: South East facing, 20 degree pitch
    Nissan Leaf, TADO Central Heating control
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 4th Feb 18, 8:47 AM
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    Martyn1981
    Anyone fancy a free Powerwall II? How about a 'virtual powerplant' of 675MWh?

    Tesla Tapped by South Australia Anew in Virtual Power Plant Plan

    South Australia plans to roll out solar panels and Tesla Inc. batteries to at least 50,000 homes to form what its government says will be the world!!!8217;s largest virtual power plant.

    Beginning with a trial of 1,100 public housing properties, 5 kilowatt solar panels and 13.5 kilowatt-hour Tesla Powerwall 2 batteries will be installed free of charge and financed through electricity sales, the state government said Sunday ahead of a state election. This will be expanded to another 24,000 public housing properties, and then a similar deal will be offered to all South Australian households, with a plan for at least 50,000 to participate in the next four years.

    Edit - Pretty much the same info in another article:-

    Labor offers solar panels and Tesla batteries for 50,000 South Australia homes
    Last edited by Martyn1981; 04-02-2018 at 9:07 AM. Reason: Added an edit
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 6th Feb 18, 1:35 PM
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    Martyn1981
    Really stretching the definition of battery storage here, but I watched this and thought of Z.

    It's a beautiful (or crazy idea) using water as thermal mass and also as a rather pretty feature. The idea is that the thermal mass of the water will reduce temperature changes in the house, thus raising minimums, and lowering maximums.

    Passive solar water wall battery
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • pile-o-stone
    • By pile-o-stone 6th Feb 18, 2:37 PM
    • 36 Posts
    • 32 Thanks
    pile-o-stone
    Really stretching the definition of battery storage here, but I watched this and thought of Z.

    It's a beautiful (or crazy idea) using water as thermal mass and also as a rather pretty feature. The idea is that the thermal mass of the water will reduce temperature changes in the house, thus raising minimums, and lowering maximums.

    Passive solar water wall battery
    Originally posted by Martyn1981
    This is used a lot in greenhouses. The heat during the day warms water barrels in the greenhouse, which then give off heat in the night. This helps to regulate temperatures and prevent excessive swings from hot summer days and cool summer nights.
    3.68kW Split E/W & 1.5kW East solar arrays.
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 6th Feb 18, 5:07 PM
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    Martyn1981
    This is used a lot in greenhouses. The heat during the day warms water barrels in the greenhouse, which then give off heat in the night. This helps to regulate temperatures and prevent excessive swings from hot summer days and cool summer nights.
    Originally posted by pile-o-stone
    Thanks, yes I recall something about this, a DIY system using black painted barrels on the northern 'wall'?

    Reminds me of the PV greenhouses I read up on, they have approx 1 PV panel for every 2 or 3 glass panels, as the plants don't need all the sunlight in the growing season, it can actually harm them.

    I also seem to recall some sort of outdoor PV farm/rice paddy (or I'm going mad) where the overhead framing has occasional panels, rather than constant panels (if that makes sense), which again seem to benefit the rice.

    Really scratching my brain and memory but it may have been Korea or Japan, and to get PV subsidies the farmers have to make sure that rice output doesn't drop.

    Man I've gone miles from domestic batts here .....!
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • zeupater
    • By zeupater 6th Feb 18, 6:55 PM
    • 4,024 Posts
    • 5,162 Thanks
    zeupater
    Really stretching the definition of battery storage here, but I watched this and thought of Z.

    It's a beautiful (or crazy idea) using water as thermal mass and also as a rather pretty feature. The idea is that the thermal mass of the water will reduce temperature changes in the house, thus raising minimums, and lowering maximums.

    Passive solar water wall battery
    Originally posted by Martyn1981
    Hi

    Mention 'Thermal Mass' and as if by magic, the shopkeeper appears!

    No water here, just over-engineered internal walls, but the idea of using high-mass materials to regulate temperatures certainly works!

    HTH
    Z
    "We are what we repeatedly do, excellence then is not an act, but a habit. " ...... Aristotle
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 8th Feb 18, 5:22 PM
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    Martyn1981
    This is commercial storage, following a residential scheme, but I assume more storage sooner, means lower prices sooner ..... so all good news. Also some domestic news at the very bottom.

    Puredrive launches commercial battery PPA offer following social housing success

    Puredrive Energy has launched a power purchase agreement (PPA) offer for installations of battery energy storage facilities up to 50kWh to address the different needs of the commercial sector.

    The company is touting its own Pure Storage CM solution, which can be offered alongside solar PV, to small businesses with a bespoke deal matched to the customers’ needs.

    In December the company began trials of the technology package – using a 4.8kW battery and 3-4kW solar PV systems - in homes managed by Severn Vale Housing under a fully funded offer using finance from an unnamed investment partner.

    Miller explained that these trails has “gone well”, with one resident noticing saving within just one week of installation.

    The company now has approval to move towards addressable stock, targeting 350-400 homes with the free installs in an effort to build enough capacity for aggregation and dynamic frequency response. Installs are likely to begin next quarter with systems completed within a year.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 10th Feb 18, 7:45 AM
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    Martyn1981
    There's a discounted battery trial (and hot water tank replacement) for 500 folk in the Cornwall and Greater London areas. It's called The PETE Project, and there's more info here:-

    Purpose of the Project
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • django01
    • By django01 13th Feb 18, 9:06 PM
    • 93 Posts
    • 560 Thanks
    django01
    Mart, thanks for the heads up on the PETE project.
    Got in touch with them to understand the numbers..£2899 for lithium ion 4KWh (warranty 10 yrs) or £1899 (warranty 5 yrs) for lithium ion 4KWh (second life). The prices are all inclusive.
    From the forum I understand that this may suffice for powering the heartbeat of the house, during night time.
    Does this look to be good value?
    4.65kw PV LG 310w, SMA inverter and monitoring. SW London. Installed - 12/10/16
    Heat Genius smart home heating - 12/02/15
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