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    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 5th Dec 16, 3:57 PM
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    Martyn1981
    On-grid domestic battery storage
    • #1
    • 5th Dec 16, 3:57 PM
    On-grid domestic battery storage 5th Dec 16 at 3:57 PM
    Hello!

    Right, as discussed elsewhere, battery storage for self generation (typically PV) is interesting (to some), and gathering momentum in the UK. So here's a thread to discuss it, and watch it develop.

    I've called it on-grid, as off-grid is so much more specialised. And domestic as commercial scale storage, or grid scale can be chatted about on the Green & Ethical energy issues thread.

    So, where are, well this article lists about 20 systems that are available or should be available soon:-

    Introducing CleanTechnica’s New Home Battery Overview Page

    Jumping straight in with personal opinions:-

    Economical - Not yet. Prices are falling fast, the range of products is expanding fast, and large numbers are being deployed in some countries, either because the price of leccy is high (Australia & Hawaii) or because subsidy schemes exist (Sweden & Germany).

    Where are we today. My needs are a 4kWh system. That's 4kWh of useable capacity, which would mean about 8kWh of lead acid (LA), or about 5kWh of lithium ion (Li-ion). My research has found batts in the high £2k and up range. I need the price to be nearer to £1.5k.

    The Tesla Powerwall II, installed is approx £6.5k, which works out at about £2.2k for 5kWh, but of course, it doesn't work quite like that, as smaller systems will cost proportionately more.

    Environmental - Tricky one this (to say the least). Until storage is needed, it's not environmental. Renewable energy (RE) generation currently displaces gas generation, which is a demand follower. Once gas generation is pushed down to zero (at times) we need storage, but we aren't there yet.

    However, to push gas generation down to zero, we need more RE, and to ensure it is viable/economic/profitable, we will need storage - chicken and egg situation.

    The advantage of storage to the environment, is to take peaks of RE and timeshift them to peaks in electricity demand. On a domestic level, this works quite well as PV generates during the day into the afternoon (or evening) depending on the month, so any stored leccy is available for the evening peak 5pm to 7pm.

    That's the background, and now here's a thread to discuss options, prices, economics, and watch things unfold. Enjoy.
    Just 'call me Mart'. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
Page 14
    • zeupater
    • By zeupater 6th Oct 17, 4:11 PM
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    zeupater
    Doubling of global renewable capacity by 2030 could drive 66% storage cost reduction, IRENA says



    Personally, I can't see how RE capacity can't double far sooner than that. PV deployment has been doubling every 2 yrs (about 40% increase year on year) so that's an easy one, though wind will be a little slower, but overall I'd have thought the world will have twice the RE capacity of today in 5yrs time, perhaps.

    Regardless, keep one eye on those batt prices, Marty wants a Powerwall!
    Originally posted by Martyn1981
    If the guys that make batteries say that they'll fall fast, I'd tend to think they know what they're talking about ... however, there's a vast difference between the manufacturing costs of batteries and the price which battery storage systems are currently being sold at ... Current li-ion costs/kWh suggest somebody's making huge margins somewhere in the supply chain ...

    HTH
    Z
    "We are what we repeatedly do, excellence then is not an act, but a habit. " ...... Aristotle
    • NigeWick
    • By NigeWick 7th Oct 17, 11:58 AM
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    NigeWick
    [ I'd have thought the world will have twice the RE capacity of today in 5yrs time, perhaps.
    Originally posted by Martyn1981
    The rate the Chinese are adding solar and many countries are also increasing wind, you may (and I hope you are) be a little pessimistic.
    The mind of the bigot is like the pupil of the eye; the more light you pour upon it, the more it will contract.
    Oliver Wendell Holmes
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 7th Oct 17, 5:57 PM
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    Martyn1981
    The rate the Chinese are adding solar and many countries are also increasing wind, you may (and I hope you are) be a little pessimistic.
    Originally posted by NigeWick
    I'm very much minded to agree with you, but I was a little careful in what I wrote as the world also has a lot of hydro, but that probably won't increase much over the next 5yrs, so for RE to double, the other sources will have to more than double.

    If you take a look at the pie charts further down in this article, you'll see hydro 'only' increasing by about 50% by 2040. In fact its percentage falls from 17% to 12% of world leccy as the total leccy demand more than doubles.

    Note PV goes from 5% to 32%, which is a 13 fold increase.
    Just 'call me Mart'. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • NigeWick
    • By NigeWick 8th Oct 17, 8:41 AM
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    NigeWick
    II was a little careful in what I wrote as the world also has a lot of hydro, but that probably won't increase much over the next 5yrs,
    Originally posted by Martyn1981
    Is tidal hydro? If so, what about the type of generators @bobbyllew was looking at in the Orkneys? When they come on line, they will add a lot of capacity quite quickly.
    The mind of the bigot is like the pupil of the eye; the more light you pour upon it, the more it will contract.
    Oliver Wendell Holmes
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 8th Oct 17, 9:48 AM
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    Martyn1981
    Is tidal hydro? If so, what about the type of generators @bobbyllew was looking at in the Orkneys? When they come on line, they will add a lot of capacity quite quickly.
    Originally posted by NigeWick
    Good question, I don't know. I suppose it's easier to separate hydro out to keep a clear head, though even that has two classes:
    run of river - so generates depending on river flow
    hydro dams - which must maintain river levels within min/max, but can also vary generation to help match demand.

    Perhaps those figures in the graph exclude wave and tidal as the technologies are still in their infancy and quite (possibly very) expensive at the moment.

    If the UK can pull off tidal stream, and tidal lagoons, then as you say, we could be adding quite a lot before 2040. The tidal lagoon package is worth about 12% of UK leccy demand, but I guess this will have a negligible impact on world RE levels.

    But wave power, now that's a potential biggie all over the world, as the energy is simply massive, but unfortunately massive enough to break most generation attempts too.
    Just 'call me Mart'. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 9th Oct 17, 1:31 PM
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    Martyn1981
    Hiya, just to say that I signed up (free) some time back, for a weekly email newsletter from Carbon Commentary, the site can be found here, and I find it a quick and interesting read with a list each week of 10 "Things I noticed and thought were interesting".

    This week this caught my eye simply because this is the third or fourth time I've seen estimates of batt prices hitting approx $100/kWh by 2020, so thought it a growing argument that we could see economically viable batt packages in the next few years.

    1, Cars and batteries. Among the many announcements from car companies emphasizing their EV credentials, new forecasts from VW (see page 20,21) on the costs of batteries. The company projects prices below $100/kWh by 2020 (contrast that with probably $180+ today) and a typical range of 420 km. This implies an expectation that the battery pack will cost around $6,500 for a Golf in 2020. Also interesting to note that VW is saying that it will move away from conventional lithium ion to cheaper solid state batteries by 2024. In a world that is increasingly worried about lithium shortages (what we really mean is a shortage of low-cost ores since lithium is earth-abundant) this seems good news.
    Just 'call me Mart'. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • zeupater
    • By zeupater 9th Oct 17, 6:55 PM
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    zeupater
    Hi

    The issue at the moment is the margin expectations of the home battery manufacturers and the supply chain ... I've seen plenty of mention of decent Li-ion prices, however there's absolutely no relation between these and what you can get hold of a unit for ...

    HTH
    Z
    "We are what we repeatedly do, excellence then is not an act, but a habit. " ...... Aristotle
    • NigeWick
    • By NigeWick 10th Oct 17, 9:23 AM
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    NigeWick
    This week this caught my eye simply because this is the third or fourth time I've seen estimates of batt prices hitting approx $100/kWh by 2020, so thought it a growing argument that we could see economically viable batt packages in the next few years.
    Originally posted by Martyn1981
    I see that some scientists are working on Lithium Sulphur batteries that are supposed to be safer, cheaper, more energy dense, faster to charge and longer lasting than Lithium Ion. Interesting times indeed.
    The mind of the bigot is like the pupil of the eye; the more light you pour upon it, the more it will contract.
    Oliver Wendell Holmes
    • EricMears
    • By EricMears 10th Oct 17, 4:06 PM
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    EricMears
    Countryfile this week (it was actually broadcast on BBC1 on Sunday but we only viewed it this morning) included a visit to a solar farm where they were storing generated power in what they described as an 'energy machine' rather than a battery. The rather vague commentary suggested they were storing electricity in water !

    However, after a better look at the relevant bit of the prog plus some strategic Googling I managed to find out that was actually a on vanadium redox flow system sold by Red T Energy. They have a website with lots of pretty pictures but manage to avoid giving any details of cost.

    see: http://www.redtenergy.com/products
    N Derbyshire.
    4kwp S Facing 17.5deg slope (dormer roof).
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 10th Oct 17, 4:29 PM
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    Martyn1981
    Eric if you're interested here's a recent(ish) article on RedT (May 2017)

    UK storage now economically viable, says redT energy CEO

    and whilst it's not the exact same technology as RedT (vanadium redox) you might enjoy a fully charged video looking at Australia's Redflow batts which are zinc-bromine and have a smaller 'domestic version' than the 6ft container that the RedT 5kW/20kWh batt comes in, but it's still quite large.

    Redflow ZCell batteries | Fully Charged

    Flow batts were really for larger scale deployment, but are getting smaller now. However they seem to be very expensive, but the argument (and it's a good one) is that they have superior cycle depth and life expectancy, making them better value over say 20-30yrs.
    Just 'call me Mart'. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 11th Oct 17, 4:53 PM
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    Martyn1981
    Before we see cheap (or even reasonably priced) batts, we need demand and supply to ramp up around the world. So, good news from the testing ground (Australia) as domestic batt installs this year are expected to be massively up on last year, roughly 20,000 v's 6,500. And 2016 was 13x 2015.

    Battery Storage Uptake By Households Surges In Oz As Grid Costs Soar

    New data shows more than 7000 were installed across the nation in the first six month of the year – surpassing the 6500 sales recorded for all of 2016 – and are headed for a total of more than 20,000 by the year’s end.

    According to the SunWiz 2017 Mid-Year Battery Report, published on Wednesday, the market predicts the second half of 2017 to grow by 50% on 2017-H1 figures, leading to total 2017 installations of 17,500. SunWiz, however, believes the figure could exceed 20,000.

    Leading the charge to home batteries is New South Wales, which is home to 21% of installations so far this year. Queensland comes a close second with 18%, followed by Victoria, at 12%.

    According to the report, the boom in home battery storage installations – most are being sold in combination with a rooftop solar system, it says, rather than to existing solar households – is being driven mainly by major power price hikes, as homes and small businesses seek to minimise the electricity they import from the grid, by maximising the consumption of their rooftop solar.
    Just 'call me Mart'. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 18th Oct 17, 5:29 PM
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    Martyn1981
    Ffu 14
    Apologies for late posting, my fault not his, I forgot.

    Electricity imported - 173kWh (120kWh in Sept 2016)
    Generated - 223.9kWh ( 204kWh in Sept 2016)
    Battery discharge - 82.8kWh
    ImmerSUN diversion - 36kWh (62kWh in Sept 2016)

    But I'm now up to 745kWh of avoided electricity import, which is about £135 saved on the bill since install. I wonder if with 3 months still to go I could possibly get near 1MWh of battery discharge in the 12 months , so maybe £180 "saved"?
    Once a year is up, in December, or perhaps next Jan, when he has a calendar year, we'll post a summary, thoughts, opinions etc etc.
    Just 'call me Mart'. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 18th Oct 17, 5:35 PM
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    Martyn1981
    My thoughts too, so a wait and see policy will be good here.

    I've now had a better read of the site and found something very interesting, good or bad, depending on how I think it through:-

    The FAQs state this:



    Now that suggests to me that all export is credited at 14.7p/kWh.

    So I currently export about 2,800kWh pa and get paid for about 2,100 at 3.3p/kWh, so £411 v's £70.

    Or assuming I use about 900kWh more thanks to the battery, then perhaps £297 more income, plus increased leccy saving of 900 x 12p* = £108.

    * I've used 12p since that's what I pay now, so it's false economy to increase savings by increasing price.


    So that's the plus side. But, they operate this credit system for exports to make up for the added cost of imported units that 'they' import for grid balancing ..... which sounds fine, till I thought about battery efficiency.

    What if they import 1,000kWh, then discharge 900kWh (10% losses?), doesn't that mean that import clocks up £147, but export credit is £132.30, giving you a net loss/cost of £14.70 on your bill?

    All of this is total speculation, but I've put my name down to learn more, though as mentioned previously, if I was going to be part of something like this, then I'd want a big Powerwall II, with 5kWh or so, of use reserved for me.


    To all, I'm not trying to be positive nor negative about this particular scheme. I think the idea is fascinating, so something to watch as storage settles in to the UK.
    Originally posted by Martyn1981
    Just to say that a while back I registered an interest, and a survey is now booked.

    I'm not trying to waste their time, I'm genuinely interested in the concept, and happy to 'waste' a few hours chatting with the guy ... take one for the MSE team .. perhaps!

    Once I know more, and can actually make some sense of all the terms, conditions and FAQ's I'll try to explain more, and hopefully Z (or any one else) can look at the numbers and give thoughts.

    If it'll breakeven, that's good enough, not exactly money-saving, but it would be nice to find out how such stuff operates in the real world, and supply some feedback to others.

    Watch this space, but don't hold your breath.
    Just 'call me Mart'. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 19th Oct 17, 6:34 AM
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    Martyn1981
    Just copying the info that ard123en posted, as it looks interesting, so, yet another to add to the watch list.

    What are others thoughts on these ?
    http://orison.energy/products/
    Not sure that they are legally ok for the UK as plugged into socket not fusebox
    Originally posted by ard123en
    Thanks ard123en.
    Just 'call me Mart'. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 19th Oct 17, 7:05 AM
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    Martyn1981
    So that's the plus side. But, they operate this credit system for exports to make up for the added cost of imported units that 'they' import for grid balancing ..... which sounds fine, till I thought about battery efficiency.

    What if they import 1,000kWh, then discharge 900kWh (10% losses?), doesn't that mean that import clocks up £147, but export credit is £132.30, giving you a net loss/cost of £14.70 on your bill?
    Originally posted by Martyn1981
    Just a short update as I've read the FAQ's and T&C's in slightly more detail.

    1. My earlier concerns are valid as I've found this:

    (ii) a monthly export credit to your energy account for any solar energy exported rather than being used, or stored in the battery for later use, and the credit of any additional electricity that is drawn and subsequently exported back to the grid (exclusive of battery round trip losses) for national grid balancing or energy trading activities that enable us to provide you with your Battery Credit. For example, if your export meter shows 100 kWh of energy has been exported, and you are an OVO Energy ‘Better Energy" customer (with a unit rate of 14.7p per kWh as of 16.09.2017), then your Export Credit will equal 100 * 0.147 = £14.70.
    2. Massive concern regarding 'overpriced' batt making its money back on the export and battery credits:

    After your first year, we’ll review OVO SolarStore (Beta) to see if we can make any improvements. This means that the Battery Credit and Export Credit could change, but we’ll let you know at least 30 days before any change.
    that's a bit scary.

    3. However, there appears to be a hint at some battery flexibility:

    How long is my battery warranty?

    Your warranty is between you and the manufacturer of the battery, which may vary depending on which one you buy.
    Just 'call me Mart'. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
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