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  • FIRST POST
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 5th Dec 16, 3:57 PM
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    Martyn1981
    On-grid domestic battery storage
    • #1
    • 5th Dec 16, 3:57 PM
    On-grid domestic battery storage 5th Dec 16 at 3:57 PM
    Hello!

    Right, as discussed elsewhere, battery storage for self generation (typically PV) is interesting (to some), and gathering momentum in the UK. So here's a thread to discuss it, and watch it develop.

    I've called it on-grid, as off-grid is so much more specialised. And domestic as commercial scale storage, or grid scale can be chatted about on the Green & Ethical energy issues thread.

    So, where are, well this article lists about 20 systems that are available or should be available soon:-

    Introducing CleanTechnica’s New Home Battery Overview Page

    Jumping straight in with personal opinions:-

    Economical - Not yet. Prices are falling fast, the range of products is expanding fast, and large numbers are being deployed in some countries, either because the price of leccy is high (Australia & Hawaii) or because subsidy schemes exist (Sweden & Germany).

    Where are we today. My needs are a 4kWh system. That's 4kWh of useable capacity, which would mean about 8kWh of lead acid (LA), or about 5kWh of lithium ion (Li-ion). My research has found batts in the high £2k and up range. I need the price to be nearer to £1.5k.

    The Tesla Powerwall II, installed is approx £6.5k, which works out at about £2.2k for 5kWh, but of course, it doesn't work quite like that, as smaller systems will cost proportionately more.

    Environmental - Tricky one this (to say the least). Until storage is needed, it's not environmental. Renewable energy (RE) generation currently displaces gas generation, which is a demand follower. Once gas generation is pushed down to zero (at times) we need storage, but we aren't there yet.

    However, to push gas generation down to zero, we need more RE, and to ensure it is viable/economic/profitable, we will need storage - chicken and egg situation.

    The advantage of storage to the environment, is to take peaks of RE and timeshift them to peaks in electricity demand. On a domestic level, this works quite well as PV generates during the day into the afternoon (or evening) depending on the month, so any stored leccy is available for the evening peak 5pm to 7pm.

    That's the background, and now here's a thread to discuss options, prices, economics, and watch things unfold. Enjoy.
    Just 'call me Mart'. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
Page 13
    • zeupater
    • By zeupater 21st Sep 17, 9:56 PM
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    zeupater
    That's an interesting point, but it'd be a worry for the DNO not for the owner of the solar array. Perhaps it'll make the DNO more eager to keep voltages within set limits?

    A solution would be to use all of your generation either with batteries, hot water cylinder or both. Then you'd benefit from the voltage optimizer because your inverter would never switch off due to high grid voltages, and you'd not overload the grid because you're not actually exporting anything.
    Originally posted by Alan_Brown
    Hi

    Which completes the circle ... if the voltage presented to the premises is currently that high that it regularly trips the inverter it's a DNO issue ...

    Regarding the batteries/DHW cylinder .... "you'd not overload the grid because you're not actually exporting anything" ... of course this makes three assumptions which when taken together seriously question the assertion .... (1) the net capacity of the energy storage is greater than you could ever fill .. (2) the household demand including DHW or Battery would always be greater than the maximum peak output of the inverter in prevailing conditions ... (3) the reaction time of whatever diversion control equipment is in place is faster than the inverter ramp-up or load change within the property, so when switching off say a 1kW kettle ~1cycle ...

    HTH
    Z
    "We are what we repeatedly do, excellence then is not an act, but a habit. " ...... Aristotle
    • Alan_Brown
    • By Alan_Brown 22nd Sep 17, 12:03 PM
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    Alan_Brown
    Hi

    Which completes the circle ... if the voltage presented to the premises is currently that high that it regularly trips the inverter it's a DNO issue ...
    Originally posted by zeupater
    It's not quite the same circle.

    If you don't have a VO device, then the high voltage shuts down your inverter, preventing energy generation and losing you money through FITS and imported grid energy. You can chase the DNO, but the problem is yours to chase.

    If you have a VO device, then your inverter doesn't shut down and so you don't have a problem. The high voltages in the grid is the DNOs problem, not yours.

    Personally I'd prefer high voltage to be someone else's problem, I have enough of my own to be going on with.
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 23rd Sep 17, 8:24 AM
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    Martyn1981
    Just posting this from another thread, as my thoughts, good or bad, may have relevance on here.


    Originally Posted by warrenb View Post
    Saying that I won't be going for a 14kw system as I have never used 14kw in a day so don't see the reason to have such a large battery.
    Hiya. That's how I've done most of my battery pondering, suggesting 4kWh useable (around 5kWh Li-ion) would do the job.

    But, I'm having second thoughts now, for a number of reasons, though none are entirely compelling:

    1. The bigger the batt, the more you can avoid full charging, and discharging, which will extend the life of the battery.

    2. Bigger batt, allows for longer viability as it loses capacity, so if 20%+ overcapacity at the start, then if down 20% after 10yrs, it's still going to meet needs.

    3. When I'll need it the most, shoulder months, with plenty of export, but still high import, Feb, Mch, Apr & Sept, Oct coincide with when I'll be using the small ASHP. A battery would allow for more ASHP use without import. EG 2kWh per day, could mean 4hrs of heating, outside of generation, and 6-10kWh of heat.

    4. The larger batt would allow cross day storage in the 6 best months, allowing for 100% PV supply on days which are extremely poor. Not really a concern normally, as these days are so rare, and going larger just isn't economical on this basis alone, but as part of this list, perhaps.

    5. Future EV use. On average in the summer I have 20kWh of generation, reducing import from 7.5kWh to 2.5kWh per day. After allowing for domestic use of the battery I'd still have 10kWh+ of spare charge, or around 30-40miles of motoring per day (which we don't do). So a larger batt may help to future proof for a PV, though the savings here would be smaller as presumably the alternative would be a cheaper night rate for charging.

    6. Bigger batt, especially the PWII is cheaper per kWh.

    As I say, none of these arguments are convincing, and I'm not sure all of them together are, but worth a ponder I think, if the decision on battery size wasn't clear cut.

    [I'll cross post this on the domestic battery thread as it might be useful, or not! M.]
    Originally posted by Martyn1981
    Just 'call me Mart'. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • Alan_Brown
    • By Alan_Brown 26th Sep 17, 3:44 PM
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    Alan_Brown
    Does anyone know if there is an article or paper on the savings from a battery like Power vault that can connect to solar and to Economy 7?

    I'd imagine that a 6kw battery and a water cylinder would be a good store for solar in summer and for E7 in winter. In Spring and autumn, both could work in tandem, with the E7 heating the water tank for morning showers and the battery for the day, with solar topping up the battery and water until the early evening?
    • zeupater
    • By zeupater 26th Sep 17, 6:48 PM
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    zeupater
    Does anyone know if there is an article or paper on the savings from a battery like Power vault that can connect to solar and to Economy 7?

    I'd imagine that a 6kw battery and a water cylinder would be a good store for solar in summer and for E7 in winter. In Spring and autumn, both could work in tandem, with the E7 heating the water tank for morning showers and the battery for the day, with solar topping up the battery and water until the early evening?
    Originally posted by Alan_Brown
    Hi

    I've not come across much other than sales data, but this site gives an idea of thermal & PV seasonality linked into energy efficiency ... Solar-PV-Thermal-Seasonal-Variability---So-whats-it-like-in-Winter ? , also touching on addressing domestic battery storage requirements & resultant energy usage ...

    Apart from that, if you're looking at efficient use of your generation, have you looked through read the ' Discussion ... ASHP(Air/Air) with Solar pv ....' thread yet ?

    Happy Reading ...
    HTH
    Z
    "We are what we repeatedly do, excellence then is not an act, but a habit. " ...... Aristotle
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 28th Sep 17, 8:50 AM
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    Martyn1981
    A bit boring, but a brief analysis of on-grid v's off-grid storage in the US, and the increase in on-grid deployments.

    US grid-tied residential storage surpasses off-grid use, finds GTM report

    Until 2017, most residential battery storage systems were installed off the grid. However, GTM Research says 2017 is the year that changes, and changes dramatically.
    Just 'call me Mart'. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 2nd Oct 17, 5:35 PM
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    Martyn1981
    I have only skimmed this, but want to post as I need to run waddle off and it looks very interesting.

    Started with this article (not crucial to the issue)

    Electric car owners 'can drive for free by letting energy firms use battery'

    And saw this last paragraph:-

    Nissan and Ovo have also collaborated to sell a £4,800 home battery system to households with solar power, similar to the Powerwall made by Elon Musk’s Tesla. The battery is pitched as a way for buyers to make more money from their solar panels, and Ovo will pay owners about £350 a year for allowing it to offer services to the power grid.
    So that led me to this:-

    Solar energy, supercharged

    They are going to pay you for use of the battery, and initial glance suggests it's quite a bit of money. Though the additional leccy savings seem optimistic.

    Can't find the batt size, but need to go.
    Just 'call me Mart'. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • theboylard
    • By theboylard 2nd Oct 17, 7:08 PM
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    theboylard
    I have only skimmed this, but want to post as I need to run waddle waddlw waddle

    So that led me to this:-

    Solar energy, supercharged

    They are going to pay you for use of the battery, and initial glance suggests it's quite a bit of money. Though the additional leccy savings seem optimistic.

    Can't find the batt size, but need to go.
    Originally posted by Martyn1981
    From the second link, to Ovo's page, Nissan xStorage, Power: 4.6kW Capacity: 4.2kWh Up to 5 year warranty, subject to Nissan’s terms and conditions

    Example costs are £50 battery installation survey
    Battery itself £4800
    Approx install cost £500

    Some of their specific terms, there are more but I just wanted to highlight these bits, I currently pay 10.29p/kWh, so thats a big jump per unit, plus the standing charge is a mahoosive 28.77p/day, which is more than double my current 12.6p/day ...

    e) The specific assumptions used to calculate the estimated annual average energy bill savings of £240, for OVO Energy’s modelling are as follows:

    (i) You are on the OVO Energy ‘Better Energy" tariff with a unit rate of 14.7p per kWh as of 16.09.2017;

    (ii) Your usage being Ofgem typical domestic consumption values of a medium user (3,100kWh
    electricity consumption per year), with and without a battery installed;

    (iii) You have a 4kW solar array system installed in your home (which generates on average 3,500kWhs per year);

    (iv) Prior to taking the OVO SolarStore (Beta) offering, you used only an average of 33% of the energy generated by the solar array system (as modelled and estimated by OVO Energy);

    (v) You have a Nissan X-Storage home battery unit (4.6kW/4.2kWh) installed and activated as part of the OVO SolarStore (Beta) offering for 12 months from your battery activation date;

    (vi) You waived your entitlement to receive the yearly FIT export payment of £88 (based on a 50% deemed FIT export credit for a 4kW solar installation); and

    (vii) As part of the OVO SolarStore (Beta) offering OVO charges and discharges the battery as required in order to provide grid services, energy trading, and increased solar self-consumption.
    4kWp, SSE, 16 x 250w EcoFuture BoB with retro-fitted SolarEdge P300 optimisers & SE3500 Inverter, in occasionally sunny Corby, Northants.
    • silverwhistle
    • By silverwhistle 2nd Oct 17, 9:40 PM
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    silverwhistle
    Your usage being Ofgem typical domestic consumption values of a medium user (3,100kWh
    electricity consumption per year)
    Do they actually mean usage or do they mean import?
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 3rd Oct 17, 7:04 AM
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    Martyn1981


    Do they actually mean usage or do they mean import?
    Originally posted by silverwhistle
    Hiya, 3,100kWh would suggest consumption (as that's roughly the medium household figure). Ours is probably about that, perhaps high 2,000's, made up of roughly 1,500 import + 1,500 PV.
    Just 'call me Mart'. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 3rd Oct 17, 7:22 AM
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    Martyn1981
    From the second link, to Ovo's page, Nissan xStorage, Power: 4.6kW Capacity: 4.2kWh Up to 5 year warranty, subject to Nissan’s terms and conditions

    Example costs are £50 battery installation survey
    Battery itself £4800
    Approx install cost £500

    Some of their specific terms, there are more but I just wanted to highlight these bits, I currently pay 10.29p/kWh, so thats a big jump per unit, plus the standing charge is a mahoosive 28.77p/day, which is more than double my current 12.6p/day ...

    e) The specific assumptions used to calculate the estimated annual average energy bill savings of £240, for OVO Energy’s modelling are as follows:

    (i) You are on the OVO Energy ‘Better Energy" tariff with a unit rate of 14.7p per kWh as of 16.09.2017;

    (ii) Your usage being Ofgem typical domestic consumption values of a medium user (3,100kWh
    electricity consumption per year), with and without a battery installed;

    (iii) You have a 4kW solar array system installed in your home (which generates on average 3,500kWhs per year);

    (iv) Prior to taking the OVO SolarStore (Beta) offering, you used only an average of 33% of the energy generated by the solar array system (as modelled and estimated by OVO Energy);

    (v) You have a Nissan X-Storage home battery unit (4.6kW/4.2kWh) installed and activated as part of the OVO SolarStore (Beta) offering for 12 months from your battery activation date;

    (vi) You waived your entitlement to receive the yearly FIT export payment of £88 (based on a 50% deemed FIT export credit for a 4kW solar installation); and

    (vii) As part of the OVO SolarStore (Beta) offering OVO charges and discharges the battery as required in order to provide grid services, energy trading, and increased solar self-consumption.
    Originally posted by theboylard
    Many thanks.

    My quick thoughts (these are based on personal consumption etc):-

    £4,800 is very expensive for a 4.8kWh battery.

    Standing charge is a little high.

    e (i) 14.7p isn't too bad, but I pay about 12p, so not particularly good either. *

    (ii) 3,100kWh seems reasonable.

    (iii) 3,500kWh gen from 4kWp seems reasonable.

    (iv) 33% prior to batt seems reasonable. We use 30-33% with 4 to 4.5 thousand kWh's.

    (vi) Don't get that one about waiving export payments. Why not meter them, impossible for us to consume all generation, and not convinced OVO could use it all either, unless they mean they will pay for all export (not just battery discharge to grid)?

    (vii) Fair enough.

    * 14.7p might be less relevant as I'd expect to import far less by having a battery. However, as the batt is relatively small, and OVO might be using some of 'my' PV gen, leaving me a little short, I'm not clear if import would drop as much as if I had say my own 14kWh Powerwall - so overall I think that relatively high tariff rate remains an issue?

    All very interesting.


    Big leap of faith here, but will lots of companies start to offer similar deals, even if you've bought your own batt? If I had a PWII at around £6k installed, and could get paid £350pa for its use (on top of leccy savings) then that would make it viable, especially if I had say 5kWh to myself, which I could charge off E7 in the winter and discharge through the day - then I'd pretty much import no day units at all, all year, and perhaps just 500kWh of E7 units.

    This is getting fun!
    Just 'call me Mart'. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • NigeWick
    • By NigeWick 3rd Oct 17, 1:17 PM
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    NigeWick
    I have only skimmed this,

    They are going to pay you for use of the battery, and initial glance suggests it's quite a bit of money. Though the additional leccy savings seem optimistic.

    Can't find the batt size, but need to go.
    Originally posted by Martyn1981
    How much will it cost the EV owner to purchase this V2G? The one I've already seen takes 10-30 years to pay for itself.

    Nissan's battery is 4.3kWh at £4,500 if memory serves, and it may well not....
    The mind of the bigot is like the pupil of the eye; the more light you pour upon it, the more it will contract.
    Oliver Wendell Holmes
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 3rd Oct 17, 4:05 PM
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    Martyn1981
    How much will it cost the EV owner to purchase this V2G? The one I've already seen takes 10-30 years to pay for itself.

    Nissan's battery is 4.3kWh at £4,500 if memory serves, and it may well not....
    Originally posted by NigeWick
    The article implies it's free:-

    After installing a special charger in a customer’s home, the supplier will take over the management of the car’s battery, with owners able to set a minimum amount of charge they want for driving the next day. Ovo will then automatically trade electricity from the battery, topping it up during off-peak periods when power costs about 4p per kilowatt hour (kWh), and selling it at peak times for about four times as much.
    but given how much the buy your own is, it may not be.

    I've read a few articles now and none mention a cost for the charger, but none say it's free either?
    Just 'call me Mart'. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • silverwhistle
    • By silverwhistle 3rd Oct 17, 6:57 PM
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    silverwhistle
    Hiya, 3,100kWh would suggest consumption (as that's roughly the medium household figure). Ours is probably about that, perhaps high 2,000's, made up of roughly 1,500 import + 1,500 PV.
    Originally posted by Martyn1981
    Thanks. My import is <1100 and gas import around 600 kwh which means I am currently on standing charge free tariffs at a much higher unit rate. Actual usage including PV is also rendered more complicated in that in addition to normal I divert power to domestic hot water and how do I cost that benefit?

    I'll worry about changing if my GF ever moves in (she fills the kettle) or if/when I get an EV. I'm going nowhere near a spreadsheet unless those unlikely events take place!
    • Exiled Tyke
    • By Exiled Tyke 3rd Oct 17, 7:12 PM
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    Exiled Tyke
    Actual usage including PV is also rendered more complicated in that in addition to normal I divert power to domestic hot water and how do I cost that benefit?!
    Originally posted by silverwhistle
    That should be costed at what the alternative would be if you weren't using the diverted electricity. i.e kWh of gas. I would also assume around 80% efficiency (i.e. take the units of electricity diverted and divide by 0.8) to calculate units of gas it would have used - most boilers are better than 85% now but then there is also lost heat in the pipes going to the tank.

    If the additional gas useage means that you would be better off on a different gas tariff then you would need to calculate total (including the additional hot water heating) on the new tariff and deduct what you currently pay to calculate the current saving!
    Install 28th Nov 15, 3.3kW, (11x300LG), SolarEdge, SW. W Yorks.
    • zeupater
    • By zeupater 3rd Oct 17, 10:09 PM
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    zeupater
    Hi All

    If it was a good offer then it'd be open to anyone with a battery ... to me it looks like the benefits are far too one sided for us to even consider ...

    When whatever offer on the table equates to either below £150/kWh of usable storage to us, or the net position results in a guaranteed lower price/kWh than we are able to obtain on the open-market then I'll start to be interested - until then the industry can come up with whatever get-rich pyramid scheme they can think of ... there's always somebody who'll ignore all warnings & believe it's a good idea !

    HTH
    Z
    "We are what we repeatedly do, excellence then is not an act, but a habit. " ...... Aristotle
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 4th Oct 17, 7:19 AM
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    Martyn1981
    Hi All

    If it was a good offer then it'd be open to anyone with a battery ... to me it looks like the benefits are far too one sided for us to even consider ...

    HTH
    Z
    Originally posted by zeupater
    My thoughts too, so a wait and see policy will be good here.

    I've now had a better read of the site and found something very interesting, good or bad, depending on how I think it through:-

    The FAQs state this:

    What is the Export Credit on my statement?

    In order to provide grid balancing and energy trading services, your battery will sometimes import and then export power from the grid. On your statement, this will appear as though you’ve bought more energy than you’ve used. The Export Credit reimburses you for this energy so you are only billed for the energy you actually use in your home. It also credits you for any surplus solar energy which is exported to the grid.

    How is my Export Credit calculated?

    The Export Credit is calculated at the same rate that you pay for your energy. We take the volume of energy which has flowed through your export meter since your last statement and multiply this by your OVO Energy plan unit rate. For example, if your export meter shows 100 kWh of energy has been exported, and your retail rate is 14.7 p/kWh, then your Export Credit will equal 100 *0.147 = £14.70
    Now that suggests to me that all export is credited at 14.7p/kWh.

    So I currently export about 2,800kWh pa and get paid for about 2,100 at 3.3p/kWh, so £411 v's £70.

    Or assuming I use about 900kWh more thanks to the battery, then perhaps £297 more income, plus increased leccy saving of 900 x 12p* = £108.

    * I've used 12p since that's what I pay now, so it's false economy to increase savings by increasing price.


    So that's the plus side. But, they operate this credit system for exports to make up for the added cost of imported units that 'they' import for grid balancing ..... which sounds fine, till I thought about battery efficiency.

    What if they import 1,000kWh, then discharge 900kWh (10% losses?), doesn't that mean that import clocks up £147, but export credit is £132.30, giving you a net loss/cost of £14.70 on your bill?

    All of this is total speculation, but I've put my name down to learn more, though as mentioned previously, if I was going to be part of something like this, then I'd want a big Powerwall II, with 5kWh or so, of use reserved for me.


    To all, I'm not trying to be positive nor negative about this particular scheme. I think the idea is fascinating, so something to watch as storage settles in to the UK.
    Just 'call me Mart'. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • ard123en
    • By ard123en 5th Oct 17, 11:29 PM
    • 206 Posts
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    ard123en
    Anyone tested the sofar batteries really tempted
    • NigeWick
    • By NigeWick 6th Oct 17, 12:37 PM
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    NigeWick
    The article implies it's free
    Originally posted by Martyn1981
    No doubt if so there'll be a catch in what they charge for your electricity and you pay for theirs....

    Think I'll stick with Tesla Powerwall 2 and Zappi EV charger to go with my solar panels.
    The mind of the bigot is like the pupil of the eye; the more light you pour upon it, the more it will contract.
    Oliver Wendell Holmes
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 6th Oct 17, 3:46 PM
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    Martyn1981
    Doubling of global renewable capacity by 2030 could drive 66% storage cost reduction, IRENA says

    The International Renewable Energy Agency calculates that storage capacity could triple by 2030 if current renewable energy capacity doubles, with battery prices potentially driven down by 66% from current levels.

    Battery storage technology used in stationary applications could be as much as 66% cheaper by 2030 provided the current capacity of renewable energy installed globally doubles, finds a new report by the International Renewable Energy Agency (IRENA).

    The IRENA report, titled Electricity Storage and Renewables: Costs and Markets to 2030, also found that the installed base of global storage capacity could triple by 2030 if renewable growth trajectory was maintained, while battery-specific storage could enjoy a 17-fold increase.
    Personally, I can't see how RE capacity can't double far sooner than that. PV deployment has been doubling every 2 yrs (about 40% increase year on year) so that's an easy one, though wind will be a little slower, but overall I'd have thought the world will have twice the RE capacity of today in 5yrs time, perhaps.

    Regardless, keep one eye on those batt prices, Marty wants a Powerwall!
    Just 'call me Mart'. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
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