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  • FIRST POST
    • MadHatter752
    • By MadHatter752 3rd Dec 16, 4:10 PM
    • 183Posts
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    MadHatter752
    VCS/BW Legal - Court tomorrow!!
    • #1
    • 3rd Dec 16, 4:10 PM
    VCS/BW Legal - Court tomorrow!! 3rd Dec 16 at 4:10 PM
    Hello

    After a week of reading through threads on this forum (including the newbie sticky) to find an answer to my predicament I am finally at my wits end and having to start my own thread... sorry to anyone annoyed by this but the wealth of information is baffling and I cannot waste anymore time reading things I don't understand and getting more confused! So THANK YOU to everyone who reads and helps.

    So... in October 2014 a ticket was put on the car i am the registered keeper of in a free train station car park, informing the driver that they were "parked beyond the bay markings". The PCN was issued by Vehicle Control Services Ltd.

    Debt Recovery Plus Ltd appear to have become involved and I have received numerous letters from them. Upon receipts of letters from DRP I read lots of threads on this forum which I thought advised me to ignore. I have therefore not appealed or had any contact with VCS or DRP.

    On 21st November, I received a letter from bw Legal entitled a "Letter of Claim" which I understand is another name for Letter before Action, asking me to pay the payment or detail grounds for dispute by 7th December, hence why I am getting a bit panicky... my time is running out to reply to this.

    They mention what I gather is all the usual stuff re County Court Proceedings could be issued, Parking Eye vs Beavis, CCJs.

    I know I have to reply to this letter as it is from the Solicitors and I have drafted the below. Is this sufficient for now? Is there anything else I can use to get them to stop hassling me. Also, some are saying send registered post, others saying email... what is the recommendation please?

    Thank you!!!







    Ref: VCS/******************



    Dear BWLegal,



    Further to your letter dated 21 November, I am writing to confirm that I amthe registered keeper of the vehicle in question, however I deny any debt toVCS Ltd.

    Your letter dated 21 November, refers to a letter dated 21 November whichyou have not received a response from. Pleasenote, this is the first letter I have received from yourselves.

    In order to respond fully to yourclaims, I should be grateful if you could issue a letter that fully meets therequirements of the Practice Direction for pre-action conduct andprotocols.

    I am disappointed in your breaches of the Solicitors Code of Conduct inrelation to your attempt to use a third party’s lack of legal knowledge to yourown advantage.

    I also note your misrepresentation of the consequences of an adversejudgement. You are in breach of Chapter 11 of the Solicitors Code of Conduct,specifically (Indicative Behaviours) IB 11.7 and 11.8.

    I shall be making contact with the Solicitors Regulatory Authority inrelation to your threats of court proceeding, CCJs and your mention of ParkingEye Limited vs Beavis (2015) UKSC. I findyour letter very intimidating and unprofessional.


    Furthermore, as a member of the Credit Services Association and thereforesignatory to their codes of practice, BWLegal is inbreach of several of these codes. As the debt is disputed continuedcorrespondence from yourselves will be seen as a further breach of that COP.


    Yours Faithfully"





    Cc: SRA
    Last edited by MadHatter752; 03-07-2017 at 7:22 PM.
Page 5
    • MadHatter752
    • By MadHatter752 19th May 17, 7:14 PM
    • 183 Posts
    • 114 Thanks
    MadHatter752
    VCS/BW Legal have not issued the response to my defence within 14 days as requested by the Judge... should i be making contact with the Court Monday morning to point this out?
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 19th May 17, 9:27 PM
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    Coupon-mad
    I would wait and see, let them be even later...the later the better.

    I presume you mean they haven't lodged a WS? Maybe they are about to discontinue/maybe they won't be paying the hearing fee.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • MadHatter752
    • By MadHatter752 19th May 17, 9:29 PM
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    MadHatter752
    I don't know what it would be called... on the papers from the court giving us our hearing date it just gave the claimant 14 days to serve a reply to my defence...
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 19th May 17, 9:36 PM
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    Coupon-mad
    OK, well they don't have to serve 'reply to defence', IIRC it is not mandatory. But they do have the same deadline you had, to submit your WS and evidence. So is that time up?
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • MadHatter752
    • By MadHatter752 19th May 17, 9:37 PM
    • 183 Posts
    • 114 Thanks
    MadHatter752
    No we've got a few weeks yet for WS and evidence... thankfully as I haven't done mine!
    • MadHatter752
    • By MadHatter752 23rd May 17, 5:13 PM
    • 183 Posts
    • 114 Thanks
    MadHatter752
    I thought it would be easier to post the court docs on dropbox so you can see what was requested.... surely if the Judge requests them to provide something to him they have to do it?!

    https://www.dropbox.com/sh/byjjkgna4qg9viv/AAAJMFYEhKj_yAJr22-jdgwEa?dl=0

    i have also read through the thread you suggested CM in your post #79
    (http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=109056) and all the links off it and that led me to ask the questions in my post #80 and I haven't has answers to these yet... is anyone able to advise please?

    I reckon I have about three good weeks to sort out the WS and my Skeleton arguement, my time is limited and I am starting to panic again!
    • Lamilad
    • By Lamilad 23rd May 17, 6:58 PM
    • 809 Posts
    • 1,731 Thanks
    Lamilad
    the claimant shall within 14 days file and serve on the defendant a reply addressing the issue raised in the defence
    Did they do this?
    • MadHatter752
    • By MadHatter752 23rd May 17, 7:42 PM
    • 183 Posts
    • 114 Thanks
    MadHatter752
    Thanks for the responses Lamilad... not that I am aware of... I haven't received anything. I guess it's worth giving the court a call?
    • Lamilad
    • By Lamilad 23rd May 17, 7:55 PM
    • 809 Posts
    • 1,731 Thanks
    Lamilad
    Thanks for the responses Lamilad... not that I am aware of... I haven't received anything. I guess it's worth giving the court a call?
    Originally posted by MadHatter752
    Definitely. They have ignored an order from the court - not a wise move!

    I would email​ (ring court for their email): FAO: the presiding judge in claim no xxxxxxxx....

    Scan and attach that part of the order (if you can) and refer to 'the attached order' which states the claimant must blah blah....

    I advise the court that the defendant has received no such communication from the claimant. At the time of writing it is xx days past the court ordered deadline for the claimant to respond. As they have failed to comply with the order I request that the judge strike out this claim using their own case management powers.

    I further request that this email is attached to the claim file as it will be referred to as evidence of the claimants unreasonable behaviour if the case is struck out or if it proceeds to a hearing. In either event the defence will seek costs under CPR 27.14(2)(g).
    • MadHatter752
    • By MadHatter752 23rd May 17, 8:32 PM
    • 183 Posts
    • 114 Thanks
    MadHatter752
    Thank you Lamilad... I'll do that first thing in the morning. I have the Judges name so is it worth trying to get his email address from them so it goes to him directly?
    • Lamilad
    • By Lamilad 23rd May 17, 8:37 PM
    • 809 Posts
    • 1,731 Thanks
    Lamilad
    Thank you Lamilad... I'll do that first thing in the morning. I have the Judges name so is it worth trying to get his email address from them so it goes to him directly?
    Originally posted by MadHatter752
    You won't get his email and the name you have is the judge who has dealt with your allocation, it isn't necessarily the judge who will hear your case.

    Stick with court email and " presiding judge"
    • MadHatter752
    • By MadHatter752 23rd May 17, 8:40 PM
    • 183 Posts
    • 114 Thanks
    MadHatter752
    Thank you... I'll do this in the morning and then try and get on with my WS
    • MadHatter752
    • By MadHatter752 24th May 17, 8:57 AM
    • 183 Posts
    • 114 Thanks
    MadHatter752
    I have sent the email this morning. I took the opportunity to see if they have paid the hearing fee and they have! Looks like it's still on then!
    • MadHatter752
    • By MadHatter752 25th May 17, 7:32 AM
    • 183 Posts
    • 114 Thanks
    MadHatter752

    Should i request confirmation of byelaws of the site in question under the freedom of info act?
    Originally posted by MadHatter752
    can anyone answer this for me please? I am thinking if the answer is yes I will need to do it asap.

    I feel very out of my depth with everything, I have read through all the links suggested and still feel the same... should i contact BMPA?

    thanks
    Last edited by MadHatter752; 25-05-2017 at 8:12 AM.
    • MadHatter752
    • By MadHatter752 2nd Jun 17, 2:04 PM
    • 183 Posts
    • 114 Thanks
    MadHatter752
    Witness Statement
    I'm sorry but am I missing something here? I was told I would be helped all the way in #17 and not to pay but no one is answering me and I have two weeks now to submit my WS and then put together a Skeleton arguement if that is what I need to do.

    Please can someone help me?!
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 2nd Jun 17, 2:16 PM
    • 49,037 Posts
    • 62,490 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    The forum is busy and a post from 25th would have been missed and sit on page 10 by now! Not your fault, not our fault, blame the success of this busy forum! We help every one we see and we will, now you have replied again.

    We had no idea your question was on page 10 or further back, until you bumped it!
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • hoohoo
    • By hoohoo 2nd Jun 17, 3:11 PM
    • 1,673 Posts
    • 3,097 Thanks
    hoohoo
    can anyone answer this for me please? I am thinking if the answer is yes I will need to do it asap.

    I feel very out of my depth with everything, I have read through all the links suggested and still feel the same... should i contact BMPA?

    thanks
    Originally posted by MadHatter752
    Its a funny question to ask, which is probably why no-one answered. It will help marginally your case, so you could go ahead and do the research. One reason for the byelaws being important is to show no keeper liability exists, but you have this anyway as VCS dont use POFA.

    The other is a more technical argument that the byelaws take precedence, so if you are not confident arguing this perhaps concentrate on other points.
    Dedicated to driving up standards in parking
    • MadHatter752
    • By MadHatter752 2nd Jun 17, 4:43 PM
    • 183 Posts
    • 114 Thanks
    MadHatter752
    The forum is busy and a post from 25th would have been missed and sit on page 10 by now! Not your fault, not our fault, blame the success of this busy forum! We help every one we see and we will, now you have replied again.

    We had no idea your question was on page 10 or further back, until you bumped it!
    Originally posted by Coupon-mad
    Thanks CM... I understand I am not the only one seeking help, the board is so so busy I can see that... just was getting a little stressed and worried about it all. I have so many questions posted above that haven't been answered and every link and thread I have read has seemed to conjure up more questions rather than answer any. Rather than people having to trail through all the posts again maybe it would be best if I summarise my questions in another post.

    Its a funny question to ask, which is probably why no-one answered. It will help marginally your case, so you could go ahead and do the research. One reason for the byelaws being important is to show no keeper liability exists, but you have this anyway as VCS dont use POFA.

    The other is a more technical argument that the byelaws take precedence, so if you are not confident arguing this perhaps concentrate on other points.
    Originally posted by hoohoo
    I am not sure how to argue anything to be honest... never mind that byelaws take precedence!!
    • DoaM
    • By DoaM 2nd Jun 17, 4:56 PM
    • 3,032 Posts
    • 3,083 Thanks
    DoaM
    maybe it would be best if I summarise my questions in another post
    Originally posted by MadHatter752
    Good idea ... another post which is a reply in this thread, NOT starting a new thread.

    (I've said this because all too often OPs will start a new thread and then we lose all context).
    Diary of a madman
    Walk the line again today
    Entries of confusion
    Dear diary, I'm here to stay
    • MadHatter752
    • By MadHatter752 2nd Jun 17, 5:12 PM
    • 183 Posts
    • 114 Thanks
    MadHatter752
    OK so to bring everything up to date, here is my amended draft WS:-

    I am the Defendant in this matter, I am unrepresented, with no experience of Court procedures. If I do not set out documents in the way that the Claimant may do, I trust the Court will excuse my inexperience.
    In this Witness statement, the facts and matters stated are true and within my own knowledge, except where indicated otherwise.

    1. Whilst I was the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned, there is no evidence of the driver and as this event occurred two and a half years ago, it is impossible to expect a keeper to recall who might have been driving.

    2. The Claimant has not provided me with any evidence of who was driving, however I have continued to receive unwarranted harassment and baseless litigation has resulted in significant alarm and distress to myself.

    3. At the time in 2014, the insurance covered more than one family member, who I have no obligation to name to a private parking firm. It remains the burden of the Claimant to prove their case. i have a copy of my insurance schedule from this time which names the drivers… I do not mind enclosing this as proof… is it worth it or not?

    4. With the driver being unidentified, I cannot be held liable as keeper for this event. I attach Henry Greenslade's wording from the POPLA Annual Report 2015 'Understanding Keeper Liability' which apply in this case – Exhibit 1 do I attach the whole report or just the paragraph I refer to?

    5. There was no requirement upon me as keeper to respond to these harassing letters and what appeared to be junk mail. In any event, this was not a matter where a registered keeper could be in any way legally liable because this is not 'relevant land' (under the only lawful route for keeper liability on private land, namely the POFA 2012, Schedule 4). No adverse inference can be drawn from my lawful decision to ignore the colourful letter, impersonating a parking ticket yet with no basis or liability capable of passing to a registered keeper under any applicable rule of law or statute.

    6. I attach Schedule 4 of POFA 2012 - Exhibit **


    7. The Claimant has not provided any documentation and relevant contracts with the land owners that allow the claimant to issue claims upon the landowner’s behalf. I challenge VCS Ltd to provide proof of their authorisation from the landowner and not just self-generated approval.

    8. The signage at the car park does not form a contract. The entrance signage is an ‘offer to treat’ as no sign at the entrance of the carpark where the event took place which details the contract you would be entering into by proceeding into the car park as evidenced by Exhibit 2.

    9. The signage inside the car park is prohibitive. The parking charge is hidden within the small print, it is not a clear and prominent charge and was never 'bound to' have been seen, as in the ‘Beavis’ case. These signs contain illegible small print that could not be seen from a moving vehicle as evidenced by Exhibits *, * & *, one of which is a video from the drivers perspective in a moving car entering this car park. anyone using my car would have used it early in the morning… the pcn was issued at 11am so should the evidence show lighting as at 11am?


    10. I further attached Exhibit * which details a legible sign which was including in the case Parking Eye Limited vs Beavis [2015] UKSC 67, a case which BW Legal themselves brought to my attention distinguishing the contrast between the Parking Eye Limited sign and the VCS Ltd signs in operation in the carpark in question.

    11. Furthermore the signs are classified in planning law as an advertisement, by virtue of Regulation 30 of the Town and Country Planning (Control of Advertisements) (England) Regulations 2007 (as amended) it is a criminal offence to display this kind of advertisement in contravention of the Regulations. I put the Claimant to prove planning permission was obtained for these signs.



    12. Court Transcripts of relevant cases – *** to find ** Can I use PCM vs Bull – does it apply here from Parking Prankster?

    13. I intend to report VCS Ltd to the Information Commissioner for misuse of my data, obtained from the DVLA in 2014. My DVLA data was supplied for the single strict purpose of enquiring who was driving, not for storing and then suing me as if I can now be held liable, in the hope I will not defend/will have lost the paperwork/will have moved house, or even better, that I will be so scared that I will pay over £254, including the legal insult of two years' interest, for what was apparently an unproven £60 charge.

    Do I report now or wait?



    14. I request the court to strike out the claim due to the fact that the land in question is covered by Railway Byelaws concerning (among other rules) the parking of vehicles. That being the case, any parking penalty was a matter only for the Railways/TOC to lay before Magistrates Court within 6 months of the event.

    15. It is apparent from court records reported in the public domain that this Claimant has been obtaining payments from keepers under false pretences - using the court as a cheap form of debt collection from the wrong 'registered keeper' parties - and has obtained default CCJs in the hundreds, despite never complying with the POFA 2012 and even bringing pre-POFA cases to the Courts.

    16. VCS Ltd as a third party attempting to morph a Byelaws matter into 'breach of contract' have no prospects of success in bringing a statute-barred Railway car park (Byelaws land, under statutory control) claim to small claims court, two years afterwards.

    17. Transport for West Midlands (previously CENTRO) are on record as stating that they were aware that car parks which fall under Railway Byelaws could not be enforced by a private parking firm like VCS Ltd, and could only be a matter for CENTRO within 6 months, via Mag's court only.

    Should I be adding the evidence of this? As a side point I have just filled in a FOI request but I doubt it will be answered in two weeks in time for it to go with this.




    When do I mention Elliot v Loake… they mentioned it in one of their letters… I didn’t mention it in my defence…

    Also… does my defence form part of my argument still… i.e does my defence get passed to this court to have on hand for the day?

    As mentioned in a previous post, I must have thrown away any early correspondence, is this going to damage my case?

    now that I am getting help back on here so I not contact BMPA? The Pepipoo example of Martha12 which CM advised me to look at in an earlier used BMPA but I dont want to duplicate anyone's work or advice when you are clearly helping so many people

    sorry there are so many questions.... I understand if it takes some time for them all to be answered.

    Also if there is any further amendments to WS that I should make please let me know.

    Thank you so much.
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