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    • MadHatter752
    • By MadHatter752 3rd Dec 16, 4:10 PM
    • 65Posts
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    MadHatter752
    VCS/BW Legal - writing witness statement
    • #1
    • 3rd Dec 16, 4:10 PM
    VCS/BW Legal - writing witness statement 3rd Dec 16 at 4:10 PM
    Hello

    After a week of reading through threads on this forum (including the newbie sticky) to find an answer to my predicament I am finally at my wits end and having to start my own thread... sorry to anyone annoyed by this but the wealth of information is baffling and I cannot waste anymore time reading things I don't understand and getting more confused! So THANK YOU to everyone who reads and helps.

    So... in October 2014 a ticket was put on the car i am the registered keeper of in a free train station car park, informing the driver that they were "parked beyond the bay markings". The PCN was issued by Vehicle Control Services Ltd.

    Debt Recovery Plus Ltd appear to have become involved and I have received numerous letters from them. Upon receipts of letters from DRP I read lots of threads on this forum which I thought advised me to ignore. I have therefore not appealed or had any contact with VCS or DRP.

    On 21st November, I received a letter from bw Legal entitled a "Letter of Claim" which I understand is another name for Letter before Action, asking me to pay the payment or detail grounds for dispute by 7th December, hence why I am getting a bit panicky... my time is running out to reply to this.

    They mention what I gather is all the usual stuff re County Court Proceedings could be issued, Parking Eye vs Beavis, CCJs.

    I know I have to reply to this letter as it is from the Solicitors and I have drafted the below. Is this sufficient for now? Is there anything else I can use to get them to stop hassling me. Also, some are saying send registered post, others saying email... what is the recommendation please?

    Thank you!!!







    Ref: VCS/******************



    Dear BWLegal,



    Further to your letter dated 21 November, I am writing to confirm that I amthe registered keeper of the vehicle in question, however I deny any debt toVCS Ltd.

    Your letter dated 21 November, refers to a letter dated 21 November whichyou have not received a response from. Pleasenote, this is the first letter I have received from yourselves.

    In order to respond fully to yourclaims, I should be grateful if you could issue a letter that fully meets therequirements of the Practice Direction for pre-action conduct andprotocols.

    I am disappointed in your breaches of the Solicitors Code of Conduct inrelation to your attempt to use a third party’s lack of legal knowledge to yourown advantage.

    I also note your misrepresentation of the consequences of an adversejudgement. You are in breach of Chapter 11 of the Solicitors Code of Conduct,specifically (Indicative Behaviours) IB 11.7 and 11.8.

    I shall be making contact with the Solicitors Regulatory Authority inrelation to your threats of court proceeding, CCJs and your mention of ParkingEye Limited vs Beavis (2015) UKSC. I findyour letter very intimidating and unprofessional.


    Furthermore, as a member of the Credit Services Association and thereforesignatory to their codes of practice, BWLegal is inbreach of several of these codes. As the debt is disputed continuedcorrespondence from yourselves will be seen as a further breach of that COP.


    Yours Faithfully"





    Cc: SRA
    Last edited by MadHatter752; 11-05-2017 at 5:33 PM.
Page 4
    • MadHatter752
    • By MadHatter752 24th Feb 17, 1:18 PM
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    MadHatter752
    ah man


    My understanding is that I will get some paperwork from the Court next and I can request it is switched to a nearby court, is that correct.


    really really dont want to have to go to a hearing!!
    • Lamilad
    • By Lamilad 24th Feb 17, 2:49 PM
    • 591 Posts
    • 1,219 Thanks
    Lamilad
    ah man


    My understanding is that I will get some paperwork from the Court next and I can request it is switched to a nearby court, is that correct.


    really really dont want to have to go to a hearing!!
    Originally posted by MadHatter752
    You'll receive the directions questionnaire (DQ) soon. MCOL will update when this is sent out. This is where you state that you want the case to be heard in your local court. You must make sure the DQ is returned to the court and served on the claimant before the deadline.
    • MadHatter752
    • By MadHatter752 2nd Mar 17, 6:37 PM
    • 65 Posts
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    MadHatter752
    Got the DQ today... woohoo not!

    I am thinking of postponing sending it back for a week or so as i want any hearing to be once I have more time to prepare everything! Obviously it will be back before the required date though. Do I send a copy to VCS AND BW Legal? The claimant is listed as VCS with no mention of BW Legal?

    Should I be keeping a note of the cost of posting these copies?
    • Lamilad
    • By Lamilad 2nd Mar 17, 9:36 PM
    • 591 Posts
    • 1,219 Thanks
    Lamilad
    Got the DQ today... woohoo not!

    I am thinking of postponing sending it back for a week or so as i want any hearing to be once I have more time to prepare everything! Obviously it will be back before the required date though.
    Originally posted by MadHatter752
    Delaying your DQ won't make any difference, your several weeks, possibly months away from a hearing yet.

    Do I send a copy to VCS AND BW Legal? The claimant is listed as VCS with no mention of BW Legal?
    Originally posted by MadHatter752
    you need to serve a copy on BWL. Don't waste a stamp, scan and email it to
    Disputeresolution@bwlegal.co.uk

    Should I be keeping a note of the cost of posting these copies?
    Originally posted by MadHatter752
    No, but get a receipt as proof of posting - free with 1st class post.
    • MadHatter752
    • By MadHatter752 10th Mar 17, 7:39 PM
    • 65 Posts
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    MadHatter752
    I received the copy of the DQ from Bw Legal today... under witnesses to be used they stated TBC... are they allowed to do that?
    • Lamilad
    • By Lamilad 10th Mar 17, 7:52 PM
    • 591 Posts
    • 1,219 Thanks
    Lamilad
    I received the copy of the DQ from Bw Legal today... under witnesses to be used they stated TBC... are they allowed to do that?
    Originally posted by MadHatter752
    They always put that. It's not right but they'll get away with it. Highly unlikely they'll involve any other witnesses but if they did you could argue that they should have stated this at DQ stage.
    • MadHatter752
    • By MadHatter752 10th Mar 17, 8:24 PM
    • 65 Posts
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    MadHatter752
    Thanks

    They have also said yes to mitigation... do they always do that do you know? I have said no.
    • Lamilad
    • By Lamilad 10th Mar 17, 8:31 PM
    • 591 Posts
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    Lamilad
    Thanks

    They have also said yes to mitigation... do they always do that do you know?
    Originally posted by MadHatter752
    If you mean 'mediation' then, yes, always

    I have said no.
    Originally posted by MadHatter752
    Correct! You intend to pay them nothing so what is there to 'mediate'?
    • MadHatter752
    • By MadHatter752 10th Mar 17, 10:26 PM
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    MadHatter752
    Yes I did mean mediation :-) I thought it didn't sound right but didn't have the form with me!!
    • beamerguy
    • By beamerguy 10th Mar 17, 11:23 PM
    • 5,094 Posts
    • 6,334 Thanks
    beamerguy
    Yes I did mean mediation :-) I thought it didn't sound right but didn't have the form with me!!
    Originally posted by MadHatter752
    It would appear that those in the mediation service are clueless to the parking scam. Their job is to avoid court if they can.
    For BWLegal it saves them money but read between the lines, if BWLegal were confident of a win, they would want to go to court.
    BWLegal are aware of the lack of knowledge of the mediation service and are exploiting them for an artificial win in their favour.

    Every parking case must be heard in front of a judge and as we are now seeing, the judges do not take too kindly to BWLegal

    NO TO MEDIATION
    RBS - MNBA - CAPITAL ONE - LLOYDS

    DISGUSTING BEHAVIOUR
    • MadHatter752
    • By MadHatter752 13th Mar 17, 9:58 PM
    • 65 Posts
    • 38 Thanks
    MadHatter752
    So I've spent a few hours tonight looking through threads/posts with Witness Statements on and finding photos/transcripts etc... a couple of questions to start me off if I may....

    1) I only replied to correspondence from BW legal when I was issued with a Letter of Claim... do I mention this in the WS? The fact that any previous letters were ignored features in the transcript for EXCEL PARKING SERVICES LIMITED-v MR IAN LAMOUREUX.

    I didnt appeal the PCN directly or to POPLA as ignorance would have it

    2)Because of the above... I have no idea what they are basing their claim on i.e. whether they are using POFA 2012 which I feel is something major in my defence as it hasn't been mentioned in any correspondence between us. When will I find out what they are basing their case on? Do I have to wait for their WS, which they could submit late, therefore meaning that I would have to submit mine without seeing theirs? I just don't really feel like I have much to go off at the moment in terms of writing my WS.

    3) How do I relate my WS to my defence? Do i use the defence I submitted as a basis for mentioning points in my WS?

    Thanks guys! Looking forward to receiving your help as ever. Reading through other threads highlights even more what a good job you all do.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 15th Mar 17, 1:26 PM
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    Coupon-mad
    i.e. whether they are using POFA 2012
    VCS never attempted to use the POFA, ever, between Summer 2014 and December 2016. So you KNOW that any NTK issued then said: 'we assume you were the driver' which is a pile of rubbish, as exposed by Lamilad who posts here (and who is Mr Lamoureux in the case transcript), as well as in other VCS cases galore.

    How do I relate my WS to my defence? Do I use the defence I submitted as a basis for mentioning points in my WS?
    No, it shoudn't really include legal arguments (that is for the skeleton argument if you submit one or take one with you). The WS should be a statement of the facts, such as that the driver didn't see signs (if true), etc., any details that assist your case; when letters were received, the fact you have never received a POFA-complaint NTK capable of holding you liable.

    The difference between a WS and a skeleton is covered in post #2 of the NEWBIES thread, with linked examples.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • MadHatter752
    • By MadHatter752 21st Mar 17, 8:35 AM
    • 65 Posts
    • 38 Thanks
    MadHatter752
    Thanks CM - I had read the Newbies thread but still struggle to get my head around everything!

    I sent my DQ off last Tuesday 1st Class - 14th March. Just checked MCOL and it wasn't updated that it was received until 20th March.... my deadline was 17th!! So it looks like i didn't return it in time for the deadline but I left three days! MCOL also says it has been transferred to my local court which is good for me.

    Anything I should do regarding the late date?

    Thanks
    MH752
    • Lamilad
    • By Lamilad 21st Mar 17, 9:58 AM
    • 591 Posts
    • 1,219 Thanks
    Lamilad
    Thanks CM - I had read the Newbies thread but still struggle to get my head around everything!

    I sent my DQ off last Tuesday 1st Class - 14th March. Just checked MCOL and it wasn't updated that it was received until 20th March.... my deadline was 17th!! So it looks like i didn't return it in time for the deadline but I left three days! MCOL also says it has been transferred to my local court which is good for me.

    Anything I should do regarding the late date?

    Thanks
    MH752
    Originally posted by MadHatter752
    From what I've read on other posts CCBC don't seem to be too bothered if the DQ arrives a little late. Besides, if you have a receipt for postage then, in law, you document is deemed 'received' 2 days later. If the case has been transferred then everything is progressing as it should
    • MadHatter752
    • By MadHatter752 5th Apr 17, 3:25 PM
    • 65 Posts
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    MadHatter752
    I haven't got round to finishing my witness statement etc yet but I am not going away for a couple of weeks end of April... should I phone the court and advise them as i didnt put it on the DQ as i didnt know at the time!
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 5th Apr 17, 6:52 PM
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    Coupon-mad
    Nope, no need to tell them about this month because you won't get a hearing date that quickly.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • MadHatter752
    • By MadHatter752 10th May 17, 10:32 AM
    • 65 Posts
    • 38 Thanks
    MadHatter752
    Hello again.

    So I have my court hearing date now... 4 July... independence day... ironic

    So i have started cracking on with my WS this morning. A lot of the points I have included have raised questions with me so I would be grateful for your comments as ever. My questions are in red!



    I am the Defendant in this matter, I am unrepresented, with no experience of Court procedures. If I do not set out documents in the way that the Claimant may do, I trust the Court will excuse my inexperience.
    In this Witness statement, the facts and matters stated are true and within my own knowledge, except where indicated otherwise.

    1. Whilst I was the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned, there is no evidence of the driver and as this event occurred two and a half years ago, it is impossible to expect a keeper to recall who might have been driving.

    2. The Claimant has not provided me with any evidence of who was driving, however I have continued to receive unwarranted harassment and baseless litigation has resulted in significant alarm and distress to myself.

    3. At the time in 2014, the insurance covered more than one family member, who I have no obligation to name to a private parking firm. It remains the burden of the Claimant to prove their case. i have a copy of my insurance schedule from this time which names the drivers… I do not mind enclosing this as proof… is it worth it or not?

    4. With the driver being unidentified, I cannot be held liable as keeper for this event. I attach Henry Greenslade's wording from the POPLA Annual Report 2015 'Understanding Keeper Liability' which apply in this case – Exhibit 1 do I attach the whole report or just the paragraph I refer to?

    5. There was no requirement upon me as keeper to respond to these harassing letters and what appeared to be junk mail, in late 2014, and in any event was not a matter where a registered keeper could be in any way legally liable as the law stood at that time. No adverse inference can be drawn from my lawful decision to ignore the colourful letter, impersonating a parking ticket yet with no basis in law. Is this still true, or had the law changed by 2014?

    6. The Claimant has not provided any documentation and relevant contracts with the land owners that allow the claimant to issue claims upon the landowner’s behalf. I challenge Vehicle Control Services Limited to provide proof of their authorisation from the landowner and not just self-generated approval.

    7. There is no sign at the entrance of the carpark where the event took place which detail the contract you would be entering into by proceeding into the car park as evidenced by Exhibit 2.

    8. Any signs within the car park contain illegible small print that could not be seen from a moving vehicle as evidenced by Exhibits *, * & *, one of which is a video from the drivers perspective in a moving car entering this car park.
    anyone using my car would have used it early in the morning… the pcn was issued at 11am so should the evidence show lighting as at 11am?

    9. I further attached Exhibit * which details a legible sign which was including in the case Parking Eye Limited vs Beavis [2015] UKSC 67, a case which BW Legal themselves brought to my attention. I am sure you can see the contrast between the Parking Eye Limited sign and the Vehicle Control Services Limited signs in operation in the carpark in question.

    what is is that the signs need to comply with?

    10. I attach Schedule 4 of POFA 2012 - Exhibit **
    What else should I say here… for what purpose am I attaching it?

    11. Court Transcripts of relevant cases – *** to find **

    12. It is apparent from court records reported in the public domain that this Claimant has been obtaining payments from keepers under false pretences - using the court as a cheap form of debt collection from the wrong 'registered keeper' parties - and has obtained default CCJs in the hundreds, despite never complying with the POFA 2012 and even bringing pre-POFA cases to the Courts.

    When do I mention Elliot v Loake… they mentioned it in one of their letters… I didn’t mention it in my defence…

    Also… does my defence form part of my argument still… i.e does my defence get passed to this court to have on hand for the day?


    Can't find any evidence that i sent the planned email in post #28... doh. is this going to matter too much? it is in my drafts still... maybe i got distracted by the stress!

    I know there are quite a lot of questions- sorry! I haven't really looked at any of the paperwork for some time so it is now a case of trying to get my head around everything again.
    thanks again.
    MadHatter752
    • IamEmanresu
    • By IamEmanresu 10th May 17, 2:11 PM
    • 1,202 Posts
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    IamEmanresu
    Byelaws as it was a train station?
    Life's for living, get on with it rather than worrying about these. If they hassle, counter claim.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 10th May 17, 9:08 PM
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    Coupon-mad
    The POFA 2012 was enacted in...ermmm...2012! So yes, the law had changed but as IamEmanresu not for land covered by byelaws, such as a train station car park, and you said:
    in October 2014 a ticket was put on the car i am the registered keeper of in a free train station car park, informing the driver that they were "parked beyond the bay markings". The PCN was issued by Vehicle Control Services Ltd.
    So maybe change point #5 to this:

    5. There was no requirement upon me as keeper to respond to these harassing letters and what appeared to be junk mail. In late 2014, and in any event, this was not a matter where a registered keeper could be in any way legally liable as the law stood at that time. because this is not 'relevant land' (under the only lawful route for keeper liability on private land, namely the POFA 2012, Schedule 4). No adverse inference can be drawn from my lawful decision to ignore the colourful letter, impersonating a parking ticket yet with no basis or liability capable of passing to a registered keeper under any applicable in rule of law or statute.
    Have a look at this thread, in depth, all of it, and the links:

    http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=109056

    I would be adding something near the end, asking the court to strike the claim out because this land is covered by Railway Byelaws concerning (among other rules) the parking of vehicles. That being the case, any parking penalty was a matter only for the Railways/TOC to lay before Magistrates Court within 6 months of the event.

    State that VCS as a third party attempting to morph a Byelaws matter into 'breach of contract' have no prospects of success in bringing a statute-barred Railway car park (Byelaws land, under statutory control) claim to small claims court, three years afterwards.

    CENTRO (if this is a Centro car park) are on record as stating that they were aware that car parks which fall under Railway Byelaws could not be enforced by a private parking firm like VCS, and could only be a matter for CENTRO within 6 months, via Mag's court only.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • MadHatter752
    • By MadHatter752 11th May 17, 3:27 PM
    • 65 Posts
    • 38 Thanks
    MadHatter752
    Thanks IamEmanresu & CM... I am part way through leading the suggested link and attachments on Pepipoo and will begin amending my witness statement.... any thoughts on my other questions?

    as ever, reading more information raises more questions too:-

    Should i request confirmation of byelaws of the site in question under the freedom of info act?

    do i involve BMPA as in the Pepipoo case at Sandwell & Dudley?

    I never did get a response from BW Legal/VCS re my defence?! is this normal, I note the Sandwell & Dudley case (Martha12) a response was given... i have read the pack from court and it seems like they should issue a response within 14 days of the pack date... is that right? i guess the response will give us more to go on.

    I notice in some of these cases all correspondence between the defendant and the claimant has been submitted to the court as evidence.... I havent got any of the early letters... I must have thrown them away so i can't check with i was issued with the NTK within the correct time frame... does this damage my case significantly? i suspect not as the issue here seems to be that it's covered by byelaws but i just want to make sure I have covered all bases and, after ignoring everything for a considerable length of time, have not jeopardised my chances.

    thanks
    Last edited by MadHatter752; 11-05-2017 at 3:54 PM.
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