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  • FIRST POST
    • MadHatter752
    • By MadHatter752 3rd Dec 16, 4:10 PM
    • 183Posts
    • 114Thanks
    MadHatter752
    VCS/BW Legal - Court tomorrow!!
    • #1
    • 3rd Dec 16, 4:10 PM
    VCS/BW Legal - Court tomorrow!! 3rd Dec 16 at 4:10 PM
    Hello

    After a week of reading through threads on this forum (including the newbie sticky) to find an answer to my predicament I am finally at my wits end and having to start my own thread... sorry to anyone annoyed by this but the wealth of information is baffling and I cannot waste anymore time reading things I don't understand and getting more confused! So THANK YOU to everyone who reads and helps.

    So... in October 2014 a ticket was put on the car i am the registered keeper of in a free train station car park, informing the driver that they were "parked beyond the bay markings". The PCN was issued by Vehicle Control Services Ltd.

    Debt Recovery Plus Ltd appear to have become involved and I have received numerous letters from them. Upon receipts of letters from DRP I read lots of threads on this forum which I thought advised me to ignore. I have therefore not appealed or had any contact with VCS or DRP.

    On 21st November, I received a letter from bw Legal entitled a "Letter of Claim" which I understand is another name for Letter before Action, asking me to pay the payment or detail grounds for dispute by 7th December, hence why I am getting a bit panicky... my time is running out to reply to this.

    They mention what I gather is all the usual stuff re County Court Proceedings could be issued, Parking Eye vs Beavis, CCJs.

    I know I have to reply to this letter as it is from the Solicitors and I have drafted the below. Is this sufficient for now? Is there anything else I can use to get them to stop hassling me. Also, some are saying send registered post, others saying email... what is the recommendation please?

    Thank you!!!







    Ref: VCS/******************



    Dear BWLegal,



    Further to your letter dated 21 November, I am writing to confirm that I amthe registered keeper of the vehicle in question, however I deny any debt toVCS Ltd.

    Your letter dated 21 November, refers to a letter dated 21 November whichyou have not received a response from. Pleasenote, this is the first letter I have received from yourselves.

    In order to respond fully to yourclaims, I should be grateful if you could issue a letter that fully meets therequirements of the Practice Direction for pre-action conduct andprotocols.

    I am disappointed in your breaches of the Solicitors Code of Conduct inrelation to your attempt to use a third party’s lack of legal knowledge to yourown advantage.

    I also note your misrepresentation of the consequences of an adversejudgement. You are in breach of Chapter 11 of the Solicitors Code of Conduct,specifically (Indicative Behaviours) IB 11.7 and 11.8.

    I shall be making contact with the Solicitors Regulatory Authority inrelation to your threats of court proceeding, CCJs and your mention of ParkingEye Limited vs Beavis (2015) UKSC. I findyour letter very intimidating and unprofessional.


    Furthermore, as a member of the Credit Services Association and thereforesignatory to their codes of practice, BWLegal is inbreach of several of these codes. As the debt is disputed continuedcorrespondence from yourselves will be seen as a further breach of that COP.


    Yours Faithfully"





    Cc: SRA
    Last edited by MadHatter752; 03-07-2017 at 7:22 PM.
Page 10
    • MadHatter752
    • By MadHatter752 16th Jun 17, 11:12 PM
    • 183 Posts
    • 114 Thanks
    MadHatter752
    I have no experience at all in any of this Umkomass... the WS is based on help I have received mainly on forum but all as a result of the forum.

    If you have any suggestions on how I can make it more succinct please let me know.
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 16th Jun 17, 11:21 PM
    • 14,054 Posts
    • 22,086 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    If you have any suggestions on how I can make it more succinct please let me know.
    I've never seen anything like it in the 4+ years I've been advising here.

    Search for other successful cases and use those WS as a framework/example.

    Honestly, while a lengthy POPLA appeal might dissuade a PPC from pursuing a case, this is not for a PPC/POPLA assessor, it is for a judge.

    I'll bow to the court case experience of CM, LoC123, IanEmanresu, Jonersh, but from my perspective, this is likely to jiss a judge off more than get him/her on your side. Sometimes less is more.

    Just my perspective on a public forum.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Timothea
    • By Timothea 16th Jun 17, 11:30 PM
    • 143 Posts
    • 273 Thanks
    Timothea
    The UTCCRs were repealed and incorporated into the Consumer Rights Act 2015, in the section about 'Transparency'.
    Originally posted by Coupon-mad
    Yes, indeed they were. I was quoting the UTCCRs because the parking event was in 2014, before the CRA came into force.

    I've never seen anything like it in the 4+ years I've been advising here.

    Honestly, while a lengthy POPLA appeal might dissuade a PPC from pursuing a case, this is not for a PPC/POPLA assessor, it is for a judge.
    Originally posted by Umkomaas
    It is a bit overkill. The OP should win 90% of the time (the other 10% being down to the vagaries of District Judges). The most likely outcome is that VCS / BW Legal will discontinue before the hearing. Otherwise, they may end up paying you substantial costs due to their unreasonable behaviour.

    Remember to have your costs schedules to hand - one for "standard" small claims costs and another for "unreasonable behaviour" costs.
    Last edited by Timothea; 16-06-2017 at 11:56 PM.
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 16th Jun 17, 11:50 PM
    • 40,232 Posts
    • 80,346 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    With regard to point 11. Many operators issue PCNs when they know byelaws apply. CRAPCOA, NCP, and Indigo litter the forum with theirs. Whilst they generally drop them or are beaten at PoPLA, the issuing of PCNs where byelaws apply appears to be a private parking industry insidious and common process, designed to cynically pressure people into paying money to which the scammers are not entitled.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

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    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • IamEmanresu
    • By IamEmanresu 17th Jun 17, 6:11 AM
    • 1,435 Posts
    • 2,675 Thanks
    IamEmanresu
    Yes it has drifted a bit mainly because the underlying claim is based on a false premise.

    Rather than go editing it further, perhaps a simple summary at the start would help you and the judge

    Dear Judge

    I'm my defence, I wish you to consider only two points.

    The first is that this land is controlled under Byelaws and as such, the Claimant has no standing.

    Secondly, if the learned judge decides that Byelaws don't apply and contracts can be made on this land, here are the reasons why no contract could have been formed.

    My detailed response is as follows:
    Then judge has the simple task of stepping through the arguments in the correct sequence. Ensure the Byelaws arguments are before the contract arguments.
    Life's for living, get on with it rather than worrying about these. If they hassle, counter claim.
    • MadHatter752
    • By MadHatter752 17th Jun 17, 8:27 AM
    • 183 Posts
    • 114 Thanks
    MadHatter752
    Yes it has drifted a bit mainly because the underlying claim is based on a false premise.

    Rather than go editing it further, perhaps a simple summary at the start would help you and the judge

    I'm my defence, I wish you to consider only two points.

    The first is that this land is controlled under Byelaws and as such, the Claimant has no standing.

    Secondly, if the learned judge decides that Byelaws don't apply and contracts can be made on this land, here are the reasons why no contract could have been formed.

    My detailed response is as follows:

    Then judge has the simple task of stepping through the arguments in the correct sequence. Ensure the Byelaws arguments are before the contract arguments.
    Originally posted by IamEmanresu
    thank you IamEmanresu I like this idea. LoC123 has put ALOT of time into this for me and I wouldn't know where to begin shortening it so I think that may be the solution.
    Because we havent had their reply to my defence I think we've tried to cover every possible thing they can say!

    Is that the right wording as this is my WS... ie "In my defence, I wish you to consider only two points etc"?

    I really hope they discontinue before the hearing but I dont hold out much hope!
    Last edited by MadHatter752; 17-06-2017 at 8:34 AM.
    • MadHatter752
    • By MadHatter752 17th Jun 17, 8:32 AM
    • 183 Posts
    • 114 Thanks
    MadHatter752

    I'll bow to the court case experience of CM, LoC123, IanEmanresu, Jonersh, but from my perspective, this is likely to jiss a judge off more than get him/her on your side. Sometimes less is more.

    Just my perspective on a public forum.
    Originally posted by Umkomaas
    thanks for the perspective Umkomaas.... hopefully I have drawn on the experience of LoC123
    • MadHatter752
    • By MadHatter752 19th Jun 17, 11:06 PM
    • 183 Posts
    • 114 Thanks
    MadHatter752
    Just realised the folder i have bought isnt big enough to fit everything in for my WS and it has to be in tomorrow morning. I am at work all day tomorrow so have to finish it tonight...any ideas what I can do?
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 19th Jun 17, 11:14 PM
    • 14,054 Posts
    • 22,086 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    Just realised the folder i have bought isnt big enough to fit everything in for my WS and it has to be in tomorrow morning. I am at work all day tomorrow so have to finish it tonight...any ideas what I can do?
    Originally posted by MadHatter752
    Sorry, but I did say .......!
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • MadHatter752
    • By MadHatter752 19th Jun 17, 11:18 PM
    • 183 Posts
    • 114 Thanks
    MadHatter752
    Sorry, but I did say .......!
    Originally posted by Umkomaas
    i know but i ididnt have time to change it all... hence why I am doing this last minute,
    • Lamilad
    • By Lamilad 19th Jun 17, 11:23 PM
    • 809 Posts
    • 1,731 Thanks
    Lamilad
    Just realised the folder i have bought isnt big enough to fit everything in for my WS and it has to be in tomorrow morning. I am at work all day tomorrow so have to finish it tonight...any ideas what I can do?
    Originally posted by MadHatter752
    Submit it the day after. Not ideal but the court won't care and the claimant won't notice.
    • MadHatter752
    • By MadHatter752 19th Jun 17, 11:32 PM
    • 183 Posts
    • 114 Thanks
    MadHatter752
    I think it will fit in actually. Need to stop panicking.

    Was going to email it all the the claimant tonight or tomorrow but if I wait until tomorrow it will most likely be after 5pm. Is that a problem... should I make sure it is sent off to them tonight?
    • Lamilad
    • By Lamilad 19th Jun 17, 11:49 PM
    • 809 Posts
    • 1,731 Thanks
    Lamilad
    Is that a problem... should I make sure it is sent off to them tonight?
    No, send it tomorrow after 5pm. BW Legal are 'open' til 8pm and if you use enquiries@bwlegal.co.uk you'll get an automated reply to confirm they've received it.

    If your attachment is large then it could be rejected by their server. Back yourself up by uploading it to Dropbox and including the link in your email. Then they have no excuse
    • MadHatter752
    • By MadHatter752 19th Jun 17, 11:52 PM
    • 183 Posts
    • 114 Thanks
    MadHatter752
    Thanks, I'll send it tomorrow.
    • MadHatter752
    • By MadHatter752 20th Jun 17, 6:10 PM
    • 183 Posts
    • 114 Thanks
    MadHatter752
    Right just about to send my WS off to BW Legal.... they have managed to send me theirs.... is it worth posting it up?
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 20th Jun 17, 6:36 PM
    • 49,037 Posts
    • 62,490 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Yes please, host the entire thing in Dropbox, covering your name, address, & car reg & PCN number.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • MadHatter752
    • By MadHatter752 20th Jun 17, 8:17 PM
    • 183 Posts
    • 114 Thanks
    MadHatter752
    In the email they said

    We refer to the above matter.

    We enclose by way of service our client’s witness statement which will be relied upon at the forthcoming small claims hearing. Notice is hereby given pursuant to CPR 27.9 that our client will not be in attendance at the hearing, however, they will be represented by an advocate.

    A copy of our client’s witness statement has been filed at court.
    https://www.dropbox.com/s/xhsrssrmy6q3pj4/WS%20BW%20Legal.pdf?dl=0

    Here's the dropbox link.

    Interesting that they have attached a sign I have never seen, which was on their pics below the Entrance sign... I have never seen this and I was also a regular user of the carpark. It certainly isnt there now.
    Last edited by MadHatter752; 20-06-2017 at 9:43 PM.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 20th Jun 17, 8:53 PM
    • 49,037 Posts
    • 62,490 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Hahaha, CPS v AJH Films!

    http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/2017/06/motorist-wins-appeal-cps-vs-ajh-films.html

    Also, on what basis are they saying the Railway Byelaws do not apply to this location? It's called 'Station Car Park B' so it's a Station Car Park.

    The overhead picture with green circles could have been created by anyone, and is no evidence at all that the green circles mean signs were there that day, let alone what the terms said.

    Interesting that they have attached a sign I have never seen, which was on their pics below the Entrance sign... I have never seen this and I was also a regular user of the carpark. It certainly isnt there now.
    And it's the only sign photo with no date at the bottom...hmmmm...

    And if that sign had been on that lamppost right next to your car that day, wouldn't the parking goon have taken a nice pic of the car from the side, showing the sign on the lamppost next to your car?

    And as the contract was only agreed 3 weeks before the parking event, what evidence is there of signs and lines being properly re-marked and prominently displayed by that time, seeing as we know that CENTRO admitted that enforcement in many of their locations could not begin until the lines had been repainted. No hatched lines there.

    And they'd done that in those 59 locations in 3 weeks, had they?! Strict proof needed...
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • MadHatter752
    • By MadHatter752 20th Jun 17, 9:22 PM
    • 183 Posts
    • 114 Thanks
    MadHatter752
    It wasn't on the lamppost next to my car to be fair.... it's on the entrance.

    What can I do... that's the question?
    • MadHatter752
    • By MadHatter752 20th Jun 17, 9:25 PM
    • 183 Posts
    • 114 Thanks
    MadHatter752
    Also should mention that the entrance sign I've never seen and isn't there appears on googlemaps... very strange
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