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  • FIRST POST
    • presc
    • By presc 29th Nov 16, 3:34 PM
    • 42Posts
    • 10Thanks
    presc
    Parking Ticket - Overstayed 6mins
    • #1
    • 29th Nov 16, 3:34 PM
    Parking Ticket - Overstayed 6mins 29th Nov 16 at 3:34 PM
    Hi,

    I got a parking ticket today for overstaying on a private car park (ES Parking Enforcement LTD) for 6 mins. I tried to find someone I could talk to, but I only bumped in on a Civil Enforcement Officer from a local council. The person I talked to said that it was illegal for the parking company to give me a ticket for overstaying for 6mins, and that it needs "10mins observation" to issue a penalty.

    The officer even made a note for me, including her registration number, so I can quote her when dealing with the parking company.

    I was wondering if someone could help me figure out what would be the best approach to solve this - was the parking company right to issue me a ticket? Is referencing a local officer going to enforce my appeal? Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Page 5
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 2nd Jul 17, 7:47 PM
    • 14,010 Posts
    • 22,005 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    Ok, thanks a lot Coupon-mad! Your help is much appreciated!

    One more question, Can we (my mother) hand in the WS into the court instead of sending it through the post?
    Originally posted by presc
    Yes, why not? It will guarantee that it has arrived. I think it has to be done before 4pm, otherwise you just have to put it into their mailbox - perhaps best phone and check best time to deliver.

    Not sure whether they give you a receipt, but may be worth asking for one if it doesn't cause them too much difficulty.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 2nd Jul 17, 8:52 PM
    • 48,867 Posts
    • 62,363 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    And email a copy to the other side - everything has to be sent to the other side now (and keep proof).
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Loadsofchildren123
    • By Loadsofchildren123 2nd Jul 17, 11:16 PM
    • 1,012 Posts
    • 1,743 Thanks
    Loadsofchildren123
    Court counters close at 2. So if you deliver after 2 you have to put it in the letterbox and it is marked as received the next day (and you don't get a receipt). It's fine to do this but take it in an addressed envelope.
    • presc
    • By presc 4th Jul 17, 6:35 PM
    • 42 Posts
    • 10 Thanks
    presc
    Thanks a lot for the information. It's all submitted and emailed to Gladstones too!

    Surprisingly, I actually got an email today from Gladstones with their WS, meaning they're actually on time

    Nothing in their WS seems to address the grace periods, so I don't know what they're up to. It seems like they are really just want to prove that they can issue tickets, which I'm not challenging anymore, because they have now gave some info on this.


    Here's a link to their WS:

    If anyone wants to have a look at it, I'd appreciate any comments that could be useful for us when writing the skeleton up.
    (they have also attached photos of the car at the end which I have deleted from this copy)


    EDIT: removed the link
    Last edited by presc; 05-07-2017 at 8:26 AM. Reason: removed link to remain anonymous
    • Quentin
    • By Quentin 4th Jul 17, 11:22 PM
    • 32,389 Posts
    • 16,476 Thanks
    Quentin
    You do need to remain anonymous here (the ppcs monitor the forum and can and do use your posts against you)


    The ppc involved here can identify the defendant from the WS you have linked to (there is quite enough info on show for the writer to see who the defendant is, despite your attempt to anonymise it)
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 5th Jul 17, 12:29 AM
    • 48,867 Posts
    • 62,363 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Here's a link to their WS: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4xafceu0HSBMEItWEY3QlRhQ0U/view?usp=sharing

    If anyone wants to have a look at it, I'd appreciate any comments that could be useful for us when writing the skeleton up.
    (they have also attached photos of the car at the end which I have deleted from this copy)
    Originally posted by presc
    In the skeleton argument, go in strong on 'grace periods' seeing as they've offered no reply to your defence on that point - so the floor is yours! Push the point home, with evidence in the form of the relevant section of the applicable IPC CoP.

    Also, did you notice that the so-called landowner contract was drawn up by ES Parking themselves as a template document (you can tell by the standard lecturing wording - e.g. cancelling aPCN is ''frowned upon''!). It omits the information that would have been expected to be somewhere in the agreement, about the agreed grace period, how much they can charge, exemptions, any concessions, the start date & expiry date, etc.

    And even more surprisingly the 'proprietor' is shown as...allegedly...another private parking company.

    I can't see TCP Solutions are likely to be the landowner. I would pay £3 for the Land Registry full register of that land, who owns it, and append that as evidence to your skeleton (assuming, as suspected, that the LR records show the landowner is another party).

    Then add the £3 into your costs schedule with everything else, all your costs, and be ready to file that schedule with your skeleton, a few days before the hearing.
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 05-07-2017 at 12:31 AM.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • presc
    • By presc 5th Jul 17, 8:35 AM
    • 42 Posts
    • 10 Thanks
    presc
    I have now removed the link, hopefully it's all good.

    Thank you for all the advice, I still have some time before the hearing, so first I was thinking of waiting to see if they even bother to pay the court fee. If they do, I will still have plenty of time to prepare the costs schedule and the skeleton.

    Interesting about the landowner, seeing that they still try to take it to court, I would imagine they do show some kind of serious evidence. I wouldn't even think that what they provide is not the case. I will definitely have a look at it after work, thank you!
    • Quentin
    • By Quentin 5th Jul 17, 10:36 AM
    • 32,389 Posts
    • 16,476 Thanks
    Quentin
    I have now removed the link, hopefully it's all good.....
    Originally posted by presc
    Not yet


    Hopefully cm will see this and remove the link still on show in her #86
    • presc
    • By presc 5th Jul 17, 11:04 AM
    • 42 Posts
    • 10 Thanks
    presc
    Thanks for the heads up Quentin! I previously removed the link from my google drive, but it was still active "from the bin". I now deleted the file permanently on my drive, so it no longer should exist through that link.
    • Loadsofchildren123
    • By Loadsofchildren123 5th Jul 17, 11:19 AM
    • 1,012 Posts
    • 1,743 Thanks
    Loadsofchildren123
    Don't wait to get the Land Reg document revealing the true owner. It's only £3. If you get it late then the C can legitimately complain that you ambushed them with it. it's only £3, and the plan is £3 (probably worth getting the plan as well so nobody can say you searched the wrong area of land).




    Someone on another forum did a belated LR search and the landowner of that particular plot of land was a completely different and unrelated entity to the one which owned the rest of the land and had entered into the parking contract. So in her case it was £6 very well spent because it shows the parking contract cannot possibly apply to where her car was parked and the C has no case to bring.




    If the document reveals it's a different owner, send it to the solicitors and invite them to immediately withdraw the claim. If you want an immediate withdrawal the quid pro quo at your end is (usually) to agree to drop any costs claim - don't offer this, wait for them to ask (they may forget, discontinue the claim and then you can still ask for costs - if they do ask then if you don't agree they are likely to chance their arm and go to court, where of course you will then play DJ Bingo and may or may not win, even on this point - early days perhaps to be having this debate but just thought I'd flag it up).
    • presc
    • By presc 5th Jul 17, 6:38 PM
    • 42 Posts
    • 10 Thanks
    presc
    Just had a look at the HM Land Registry.
    This is interesting, no where in their WS (or any letter from them) I can find the exact address for the parking. All I get is the street name and a postcode.

    Turns out, there's 17 properties on the registry for that postcode. Stuff like train station or a pub are definitely not it (go figure), but all other entries (10) are just street numbers with no indication of what they actually are. Am I supposed to just drop up to £30 to hope that one of them will be it?

    I don't understand how they can possibly go to court, claim that the owner of the land is XXX, where they don't even provide exact street number? Can the guy be the owner of the whole street?
  • Land Registry
    Just had a look at the HM Land Registry.
    This is interesting, no where in their WS (or any letter from them) I can find the exact address for the parking. All I get is the street name and a postcode.

    Turns out, there's 17 properties on the registry for that postcode. Stuff like train station or a pub are definitely not it (go figure), but all other entries (10) are just street numbers with no indication of what they actually are. Am I supposed to just drop up to £30 to hope that one of them will be it?

    I don't understand how they can possibly go to court, claim that the owner of the land is XXX, where they don't even provide exact street number? Can the guy be the owner of the whole street?
    Originally posted by presc
    If you search by address only then you will get the search results relevant to those addresses/post codes

    If you are looking for a parking space, namely a specific parcel if land, then you have two 'better' options if you know where the land is
    1. Use the Map Enquiry service instead - part of same online service. But you have to zoom in close to limit the number of results
    Or
    2. Make a postal Search of the index map with a plan clearly identifying the land. The result will be exact re the relevant title number which you can then check inline using the Detailed Enquiry option
    Official Company Representative
    I am the official company representative of Land Registry. MSE has given permission for me to post in response to queries about the company, so that I can help solve issues. You can see my name on the companies with permission to post list. I am not allowed to tout for business at all. If you believe I am please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com This does NOT imply any form of approval of my company or its products by MSE"
    • DoaM
    • By DoaM 6th Jul 17, 9:22 AM
    • 3,032 Posts
    • 3,063 Thanks
    DoaM
    Welcome, LR rep, over here at the murky world of private parking.
    Diary of a madman
    Walk the line again today
    Entries of confusion
    Dear diary, I'm here to stay
    • Loadsofchildren123
    • By Loadsofchildren123 6th Jul 17, 1:54 PM
    • 1,012 Posts
    • 1,743 Thanks
    Loadsofchildren123
    Very helpful of the LR rep, but I suspect the OP has no idea where it is claimed the car was parked. OP have you tried looking on google earth to see if there's a car park anywhere there?


    If you can't identify it, write to the C's solicitors:


    Dear Sirs
    Re Claim number xxxxx
    I am the Defendant in the above claim. Although witness statements have been filed, I am still unclear precisely where it is claimed the vehicle was parked. All you have provided is a street name and post code, but this post code/address covers several properties and there is no indication which one the Claim relates to.


    I attach a [plan/map] and ask that you mark on it the land which your client claims it is entitled to manage pursuant to the contract it has produced. [can you get some sort of plan/map/aerial photo?]


    The final hearing is on [x date] and I therefore ask that you provide this information by [set a date].


    Yours faithfully
    etc.
    • presc
    • By presc 6th Jul 17, 6:13 PM
    • 42 Posts
    • 10 Thanks
    presc
    Thank you LR rep for the information. That helped a lot! I have checked it again and downloaded both the site plan and the document telling me who's the land owner.

    The site plan they have provided there is quite confusing as it shows buildings that aren't there, and the map is coloured in 8 different colours... The document is 5 pages long so I need to sit down and read it properly.

    When scanning through the document, the main info I found is that there are two owners (both companies) stated on the document, neither of them is the same one as in Gladstones WS. However, one of them shows the same address, but different floor, and different company name. I don't have a clue what to make out of this.

    Could it be that I have somehow downloaded different part of the plan and it's showing me contract for one of the buildings in the marked areas? I know the land pretty well, and I'm 100% sure the plan shows where my mother parked.

    I suppose I shouldn't be sharing the plan here on the forum for you to see?
    • Loadsofchildren123
    • By Loadsofchildren123 7th Jul 17, 9:48 AM
    • 1,012 Posts
    • 1,743 Thanks
    Loadsofchildren123
    You could do one of 2 things:
    1. nothing, and produce all of this to the judge and say it's clear as mud and they can't prove their case about having landowner authority.
    2. get to the bottom of it yourself - if the documents are simply not capable of being understood, write to the solicitors. Enclose the documents and explain that you want to independently establish who owns the site because you do not believe they have landowner authority. Explain with reference to the enclosed plan(s) why it is/they are so confusing. As them to identify on the plan(s) where the car was parked and to produce evidence of who owns that land (then if they don't, you then have enough information to do your own search to see who owns it).


    Many people will advocate 1 - let the C prove its case.
    I think this is dangerous. A judge may be satisfied on the strength of their say-so that the landowner on the contract is the true owner. So I would do option 2.
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