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  • FIRST POST
    • presc
    • By presc 29th Nov 16, 3:34 PM
    • 45Posts
    • 19Thanks
    presc
    Parking Ticket - Overstayed 6mins
    • #1
    • 29th Nov 16, 3:34 PM
    Parking Ticket - Overstayed 6mins 29th Nov 16 at 3:34 PM
    Hi,

    I got a parking ticket today for overstaying on a private car park (ES Parking Enforcement LTD) for 6 mins. I tried to find someone I could talk to, but I only bumped in on a Civil Enforcement Officer from a local council. The person I talked to said that it was illegal for the parking company to give me a ticket for overstaying for 6mins, and that it needs "10mins observation" to issue a penalty.

    The officer even made a note for me, including her registration number, so I can quote her when dealing with the parking company.

    I was wondering if someone could help me figure out what would be the best approach to solve this - was the parking company right to issue me a ticket? Is referencing a local officer going to enforce my appeal? Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Page 5
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 2nd Jul 17, 7:47 PM
    • 15,490 Posts
    • 24,201 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    Ok, thanks a lot Coupon-mad! Your help is much appreciated!

    One more question, Can we (my mother) hand in the WS into the court instead of sending it through the post?
    Originally posted by presc
    Yes, why not? It will guarantee that it has arrived. I think it has to be done before 4pm, otherwise you just have to put it into their mailbox - perhaps best phone and check best time to deliver.

    Not sure whether they give you a receipt, but may be worth asking for one if it doesn't cause them too much difficulty.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 2nd Jul 17, 8:52 PM
    • 51,504 Posts
    • 65,106 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    And email a copy to the other side - everything has to be sent to the other side now (and keep proof).
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Loadsofchildren123
    • By Loadsofchildren123 2nd Jul 17, 11:16 PM
    • 1,589 Posts
    • 2,699 Thanks
    Loadsofchildren123
    Court counters close at 2. So if you deliver after 2 you have to put it in the letterbox and it is marked as received the next day (and you don't get a receipt). It's fine to do this but take it in an addressed envelope.
    • presc
    • By presc 4th Jul 17, 6:35 PM
    • 45 Posts
    • 19 Thanks
    presc
    Thanks a lot for the information. It's all submitted and emailed to Gladstones too!

    Surprisingly, I actually got an email today from Gladstones with their WS, meaning they're actually on time

    Nothing in their WS seems to address the grace periods, so I don't know what they're up to. It seems like they are really just want to prove that they can issue tickets, which I'm not challenging anymore, because they have now gave some info on this.


    Here's a link to their WS:

    If anyone wants to have a look at it, I'd appreciate any comments that could be useful for us when writing the skeleton up.
    (they have also attached photos of the car at the end which I have deleted from this copy)


    EDIT: removed the link
    Last edited by presc; 05-07-2017 at 8:26 AM. Reason: removed link to remain anonymous
    • Quentin
    • By Quentin 4th Jul 17, 11:22 PM
    • 33,243 Posts
    • 17,186 Thanks
    Quentin
    You do need to remain anonymous here (the ppcs monitor the forum and can and do use your posts against you)


    The ppc involved here can identify the defendant from the WS you have linked to (there is quite enough info on show for the writer to see who the defendant is, despite your attempt to anonymise it)
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 5th Jul 17, 12:29 AM
    • 51,504 Posts
    • 65,106 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Here's a link to their WS: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4xafceu0HSBMEItWEY3QlRhQ0U/view?usp=sharing

    If anyone wants to have a look at it, I'd appreciate any comments that could be useful for us when writing the skeleton up.
    (they have also attached photos of the car at the end which I have deleted from this copy)
    Originally posted by presc
    In the skeleton argument, go in strong on 'grace periods' seeing as they've offered no reply to your defence on that point - so the floor is yours! Push the point home, with evidence in the form of the relevant section of the applicable IPC CoP.

    Also, did you notice that the so-called landowner contract was drawn up by ES Parking themselves as a template document (you can tell by the standard lecturing wording - e.g. cancelling aPCN is ''frowned upon''!). It omits the information that would have been expected to be somewhere in the agreement, about the agreed grace period, how much they can charge, exemptions, any concessions, the start date & expiry date, etc.

    And even more surprisingly the 'proprietor' is shown as...allegedly...another private parking company.

    I can't see TCP Solutions are likely to be the landowner. I would pay £3 for the Land Registry full register of that land, who owns it, and append that as evidence to your skeleton (assuming, as suspected, that the LR records show the landowner is another party).

    Then add the £3 into your costs schedule with everything else, all your costs, and be ready to file that schedule with your skeleton, a few days before the hearing.
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 05-07-2017 at 12:31 AM.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • presc
    • By presc 5th Jul 17, 8:35 AM
    • 45 Posts
    • 19 Thanks
    presc
    I have now removed the link, hopefully it's all good.

    Thank you for all the advice, I still have some time before the hearing, so first I was thinking of waiting to see if they even bother to pay the court fee. If they do, I will still have plenty of time to prepare the costs schedule and the skeleton.

    Interesting about the landowner, seeing that they still try to take it to court, I would imagine they do show some kind of serious evidence. I wouldn't even think that what they provide is not the case. I will definitely have a look at it after work, thank you!
    • Quentin
    • By Quentin 5th Jul 17, 10:36 AM
    • 33,243 Posts
    • 17,186 Thanks
    Quentin
    I have now removed the link, hopefully it's all good.....
    Originally posted by presc
    Not yet


    Hopefully cm will see this and remove the link still on show in her #86
    • presc
    • By presc 5th Jul 17, 11:04 AM
    • 45 Posts
    • 19 Thanks
    presc
    Thanks for the heads up Quentin! I previously removed the link from my google drive, but it was still active "from the bin". I now deleted the file permanently on my drive, so it no longer should exist through that link.
    • Loadsofchildren123
    • By Loadsofchildren123 5th Jul 17, 11:19 AM
    • 1,589 Posts
    • 2,699 Thanks
    Loadsofchildren123
    Don't wait to get the Land Reg document revealing the true owner. It's only £3. If you get it late then the C can legitimately complain that you ambushed them with it. it's only £3, and the plan is £3 (probably worth getting the plan as well so nobody can say you searched the wrong area of land).




    Someone on another forum did a belated LR search and the landowner of that particular plot of land was a completely different and unrelated entity to the one which owned the rest of the land and had entered into the parking contract. So in her case it was £6 very well spent because it shows the parking contract cannot possibly apply to where her car was parked and the C has no case to bring.




    If the document reveals it's a different owner, send it to the solicitors and invite them to immediately withdraw the claim. If you want an immediate withdrawal the quid pro quo at your end is (usually) to agree to drop any costs claim - don't offer this, wait for them to ask (they may forget, discontinue the claim and then you can still ask for costs - if they do ask then if you don't agree they are likely to chance their arm and go to court, where of course you will then play DJ Bingo and may or may not win, even on this point - early days perhaps to be having this debate but just thought I'd flag it up).
    • presc
    • By presc 5th Jul 17, 6:38 PM
    • 45 Posts
    • 19 Thanks
    presc
    Just had a look at the HM Land Registry.
    This is interesting, no where in their WS (or any letter from them) I can find the exact address for the parking. All I get is the street name and a postcode.

    Turns out, there's 17 properties on the registry for that postcode. Stuff like train station or a pub are definitely not it (go figure), but all other entries (10) are just street numbers with no indication of what they actually are. Am I supposed to just drop up to £30 to hope that one of them will be it?

    I don't understand how they can possibly go to court, claim that the owner of the land is XXX, where they don't even provide exact street number? Can the guy be the owner of the whole street?
  • Land Registry
    Just had a look at the HM Land Registry.
    This is interesting, no where in their WS (or any letter from them) I can find the exact address for the parking. All I get is the street name and a postcode.

    Turns out, there's 17 properties on the registry for that postcode. Stuff like train station or a pub are definitely not it (go figure), but all other entries (10) are just street numbers with no indication of what they actually are. Am I supposed to just drop up to £30 to hope that one of them will be it?

    I don't understand how they can possibly go to court, claim that the owner of the land is XXX, where they don't even provide exact street number? Can the guy be the owner of the whole street?
    Originally posted by presc
    If you search by address only then you will get the search results relevant to those addresses/post codes

    If you are looking for a parking space, namely a specific parcel if land, then you have two 'better' options if you know where the land is
    1. Use the Map Enquiry service instead - part of same online service. But you have to zoom in close to limit the number of results
    Or
    2. Make a postal Search of the index map with a plan clearly identifying the land. The result will be exact re the relevant title number which you can then check inline using the Detailed Enquiry option
    Official Company Representative
    I am the official company representative of Land Registry. MSE has given permission for me to post in response to queries about the company, so that I can help solve issues. You can see my name on the companies with permission to post list. I am not allowed to tout for business at all. If you believe I am please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com This does NOT imply any form of approval of my company or its products by MSE"
    • DoaM
    • By DoaM 6th Jul 17, 9:22 AM
    • 3,492 Posts
    • 3,551 Thanks
    DoaM
    Welcome, LR rep, over here at the murky world of private parking.
    Diary of a madman
    Walk the line again today
    Entries of confusion
    Dear diary, I'm here to stay
    • Loadsofchildren123
    • By Loadsofchildren123 6th Jul 17, 1:54 PM
    • 1,589 Posts
    • 2,699 Thanks
    Loadsofchildren123
    Very helpful of the LR rep, but I suspect the OP has no idea where it is claimed the car was parked. OP have you tried looking on google earth to see if there's a car park anywhere there?


    If you can't identify it, write to the C's solicitors:


    Dear Sirs
    Re Claim number xxxxx
    I am the Defendant in the above claim. Although witness statements have been filed, I am still unclear precisely where it is claimed the vehicle was parked. All you have provided is a street name and post code, but this post code/address covers several properties and there is no indication which one the Claim relates to.


    I attach a [plan/map] and ask that you mark on it the land which your client claims it is entitled to manage pursuant to the contract it has produced. [can you get some sort of plan/map/aerial photo?]


    The final hearing is on [x date] and I therefore ask that you provide this information by [set a date].


    Yours faithfully
    etc.
    • presc
    • By presc 6th Jul 17, 6:13 PM
    • 45 Posts
    • 19 Thanks
    presc
    Thank you LR rep for the information. That helped a lot! I have checked it again and downloaded both the site plan and the document telling me who's the land owner.

    The site plan they have provided there is quite confusing as it shows buildings that aren't there, and the map is coloured in 8 different colours... The document is 5 pages long so I need to sit down and read it properly.

    When scanning through the document, the main info I found is that there are two owners (both companies) stated on the document, neither of them is the same one as in Gladstones WS. However, one of them shows the same address, but different floor, and different company name. I don't have a clue what to make out of this.

    Could it be that I have somehow downloaded different part of the plan and it's showing me contract for one of the buildings in the marked areas? I know the land pretty well, and I'm 100% sure the plan shows where my mother parked.

    I suppose I shouldn't be sharing the plan here on the forum for you to see?
    • Loadsofchildren123
    • By Loadsofchildren123 7th Jul 17, 9:48 AM
    • 1,589 Posts
    • 2,699 Thanks
    Loadsofchildren123
    You could do one of 2 things:
    1. nothing, and produce all of this to the judge and say it's clear as mud and they can't prove their case about having landowner authority.
    2. get to the bottom of it yourself - if the documents are simply not capable of being understood, write to the solicitors. Enclose the documents and explain that you want to independently establish who owns the site because you do not believe they have landowner authority. Explain with reference to the enclosed plan(s) why it is/they are so confusing. As them to identify on the plan(s) where the car was parked and to produce evidence of who owns that land (then if they don't, you then have enough information to do your own search to see who owns it).


    Many people will advocate 1 - let the C prove its case.
    I think this is dangerous. A judge may be satisfied on the strength of their say-so that the landowner on the contract is the true owner. So I would do option 2.
    • presc
    • By presc 31st Aug 17, 6:44 PM
    • 45 Posts
    • 19 Thanks
    presc
    So as I was preparing all the documents for the court hearing tomorrow I realised I got an email from gladstones last month saying that they won't be attending the court hearing, and that they asked the court to decide the claim based on the evidence! Can you even do this? I did oppose to the case being done through papers.

    I imagine I still need to attend, but what could this possibly mean to my case?


    Here's what they actually said in the email:
    We act for the Claimant.
    In accordance with CPR 27.9 our Client hereby gives notice that it will not be attending the hearing.
    We confirm the Court has been informed and our Client's witness statement has been filed in
    accordance with 27.9 (a) and (b).
    We have requested that the Court decides the claim in our Client's absence based on the evidence
    submitted.
    Kind Regards
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 1st Sep 17, 1:23 AM
    • 51,504 Posts
    • 65,106 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Definitely turn up, armed with all your evidence. Let us know how it goes!
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • presc
    • By presc 2nd Sep 17, 3:42 PM
    • 45 Posts
    • 19 Thanks
    presc
    We won! Thank you very much to all the community and especially Coupon-mad who has shown continued support.

    The hearing was actually very straightforward, I didn't even have to say much, almost nothing at all. Here's a little run down of how it went, maybe it can be of some help:

    I didn't prepare as much as other people on the forums, but I still did a good deal of research prior to the hearing. Someone on the forum mentioned that wearing elegant clothing can help your case. I think that wearing something more elegant can help make you look more professional, and definitively show them that you're serious about the case and you actually "know what you're doing", meaning you probably don't want to just get away from not paying the parking fee.

    Day before the case we printed all of the evidence and documents out, with 3 copies each. We stapled all associated documents together to form small bundles (so for example entire defence, directions questionnaire, any letters etc) and labelled them with sticky notes (e.g. Ex.1, Ex.2 etc). I didn't have any binding facility at hand, so we just left everything as those small bundles and put them into folders (cheap asda stuff, not too professional, I know).

    For us, it was around 25min drive to the court. Since the hearing was in the morning we expected some traffic and we have left our home over one hour prior to the hearing. We arrived with just over 30mins to the hearing which proved helpful since we had to figure out a parking (entrance to our particular court was not that easy to find) and if I was to give a tip to someone, is to bring some change for the parking machine!

    Still, with 30mins left we had enough time to leave the car, get through the security and go to reception. At first there was no one there at the desk, and there was just a register to sign. We signed it, and had a sit in the waiting area. When I realised the usher got back to the desk, I walked up and with a nervous voice told him I was the Lay Rep for my mother. At first he thought I'm the solicitor for the parking company, then he thought I'm a McKenzie Friend at which stage I just pulled out the Rights of Audience order and specifically showed him what I meant.

    The waiting room was pretty intimidating, with plenty of people nicely dressed and even judges walking around with proper gowns and the special wigs. My mum was getting pretty stressed, but I tried to keep her calm and mentioned what I read on the forums - that the hearing for a small claim is typically in a small room, with a judge not formally dressed like this.

    We didn't have to wait long before the hearing - it was almost spot on time, but the usher walked up and informed us that no one from the parking company has showed up and I told him they probably won't come. He called us up to the hearing room, which was bigger than expected, but still was not like a proper tribunal room. It wasn't us just sitting at the desk with the judge as I read on other threads - the room was fairly long, with one desk at the front, one on the side and a fairly big desk for the judge. There were microphones on the desks, but the room wasn't big enough to actually make use of them. When we came in, the judge just asked us to sit down and didn't even ask me to pass the folders.

    The judge was pretty intimidating too, reminding me a lot of J. K. Simmons (if you watched Whiplash you will know what I mean!), but despite that he was rather nice and said from the outset that he is going to dismiss the case. He asked us some basic questions regarding the case, and he confirmed with me that I'm the lay rep - the usher actually passed this information onto the judge so it made it simpler. Surprisingly at no stage we had to show our ID's or anything like that (it's still good idea to bring those along, I imagine).

    The judge explained to us why he will dismiss the case, and basically went over my points made in the defence - something I imagined I would have to do. He said that most points would not support my case (didn't specify which ones), and that many were addressed in the claimant's witness statement, however the grace periods points is so strong that he would dismiss the case just based on that. He mentioned the fact that Gladstones should know the IPC code because they have the same people behind the two companies. He also mentioned the point about the time watches not being synchronised which the claimant failed to prove otherwise. He even pointed out that the photos they provided (which had a time stamp on) showed even earlier time meaning it was less than 6 mins when they gave the ticket out. The judge mentioned that it's arguable as to what time the ticket was actually issued, but since the claimant failed to show any kind of response to the grace periods he just assumes that the photos and time on the parking charge notice are correct. He said that Gladstones didn't say anything about the grace periods deliberately, since they knew they can't prove me wrong - or something along those lines.

    After explaining why he will dismiss the case, he asked my mum if she incurred any costs associated with the hearing. Well, here is where I messed up actually, as in the end I didn't prepare the cost schedule of any sort (I didn't manage to find time to do all of this) and we ended up getting money back for the travel and the parking (around £20). He said that unfortunately he can't take Lay Rep into account, which I knew would be the case. I know it's not a lot for the claimant to cover the amount, but in the end I was just happy that it's all over and I won't have to deal with any of this again!

    The judge thanked us for coming for the hearing and thank me for preparing the documents in a professional manner. I think he was happy to see some effort put into a small case like this and that we tried to keep it professional.


    Thanks again for everything! I wouldn't have done it without your help!
    • Redx
    • By Redx 2nd Sep 17, 4:10 PM
    • 16,504 Posts
    • 20,667 Thanks
    Redx
    well done , glad to see that common sense prevailed

    I am always banging on about grace periods and this is why, its a valid point for ALL these private parking companies

    I am a tad concerned that you said you wont have to deal with any of this again

    I would hope that with the help you received on here you would give back by helping others like we do , plenty of people are going through the process and are daunted by it all , so to have people who have been through it helping them (like lamilad and LOC123 do) would be great

    great summary by the way
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
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