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  • FIRST POST
    • bowcreek
    • By bowcreek 23rd Nov 16, 2:03 PM
    • 55Posts
    • 9Thanks
    bowcreek
    CCJ from Civil Enforcement Limited
    • #1
    • 23rd Nov 16, 2:03 PM
    CCJ from Civil Enforcement Limited 23rd Nov 16 at 2:03 PM
    Hello everyone- Last night looking at my credit report I found that a CCJ has been issued against me November 2016 from Northampton county court (Information Source - Registry Trust Ltd) to pay approx. £300. This is issued to the address I lived between Aug 2014 and October 2015 as a lodger.


    I called up the county court and they didn't give information of claimant due to identity protection reasons on phone. What they have now given is

    Solicitor who acted on Claimant's behalf - Civil enforcement limited
    Their contact number - 0870 919 5577
    and their case reference number.


    It seems this company deals with parking fines etc. which could well be the case as to my stupidity my car is still registered at that address (utterly stupid I agree). So, I guess for that reason all previous letters/correspondance from CEL would have gone to the old address.


    1. So would you say the first step would be to request address change via DVLA?
    2. How do I find the details of claim by CEL? They only seem to have automated payment system and nobody to talk to. Should I try to seek more info on when and why this was issued before simply agreeing to pay off?
    3. As a top priority - I'd really want to get this off the judgement register and also from my credit file. Is that at all possible at this stage? https://www.gov.uk/county-court-judg...-credit-rating says it can be possible if paid within a month?
    4. County court helpdesk said there is a fee of £250 to set-aside a judgement. Worth going that route if I failed to change the address for a year !?


    Your help will be really appreciated.
    Thanks.
    Last edited by bowcreek; 23-05-2017 at 3:45 PM.
Page 2
    • bowcreek
    • By bowcreek 26th Nov 16, 11:50 AM
    • 55 Posts
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    bowcreek
    I've now received the claim particulars but it doesn't seem to have any details of what and when did I do or what is the whole thing about? How do I get that ? Concerned of losing time as well...

    Also does it surely mean one calendar month I have is from 16th Nov? There are date from October on this paper as well and not sure what significance they carry to meet for paying within a month clause..


    Going to post the letter in next post.
    Last edited by bowcreek; 26-11-2016 at 11:59 AM.
    • Quentin
    • By Quentin 26th Nov 16, 12:57 PM
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    Quentin
    I've now received the claim particulars but it doesn't seem to have any details of what and when did I do or what is the whole thing about? How do I get that ? Concerned of losing time as well...

    Also does it surely mean one calendar month I have is from 16th Nov? There are date from October on this paper as well and not sure what significance they carry to meet for paying within a month clause..


    Going to post the letter in next post.
    Originally posted by bowcreek
    You get 30 days from the date of the judgement to pay in full To avoid the ccj remaining on the register.

    The date of claim is irrelevant as far as the judgement is concerned
    • bowcreek
    • By bowcreek 26th Nov 16, 7:14 PM
    • 55 Posts
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    bowcreek
    OK. Now the problem is I dont even have a PCN to use as reference to pay it if it was to do with parking. Particulars here talk about "damage". Dont know if its legal language to describe it or its something completely different. Where and how do I get actual details of claim please?
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 26th Nov 16, 11:25 PM
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    Coupon-mad
    OK. Now the problem is I dont even have a PCN to use as reference to pay it if it was to do with parking. Particulars here talk about "damage". Dont know if its legal language to describe it or its something completely different. Where and how do I get actual details of claim please?
    Originally posted by bowcreek
    That is all you get at this stage.

    If you decide to apply to set it aside then the CCJ is wiped if at the set-aside hearing (at your local court) the Judge accepts your reasons for not defending and believes you have reasonable prospects of successfully defending the claim. Which you do but you need to be armed to explain that CEL do not use the POFA so a registered keeper can't be held liable in law (the driver can't be assumed and this was confirmed by the POPLA Lead adjudicator, Henry Greenslade). And you need to be ready to answer that you do not know who was driving or that you might have an idea BUT you are aware that you are not obliged to name the driver to a non-POFA complying parking firm. Nor can you be judged badly for not passing on the name of the driver (again as confirmed by barrister and POPLA lead Adjudicator, Henry Greenslade).

    Then if CEL want to pursue it they'd have to pay a hearing fee for the actual claim to be heard and both parties would have to exchange their exhibits and witness statements. That's when you would see more.

    I doubt they would pursue it to a final hearing after the set aside hearing, because CEL are not looking to lose cases at hearings, just to get payments and default CCJs to threaten people for money. You could then even finish this off by suing CEL for the set aside fee (if not refunded by order of the court) and a few hundred extra for misuse of your data obtained from the DVLA:

    http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/2016/11/smart-parking-settle-out-of-court-for.html
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 26-11-2016 at 11:31 PM.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • bowcreek
    • By bowcreek 30th Nov 16, 9:20 AM
    • 55 Posts
    • 9 Thanks
    bowcreek
    Looked closely and the reference number in the letter worked in the PCN field to be able to pay off on CEL's website. So I can pay upfront if I want now and throw this misery out of my life hopefully.


    This would be ----Pay within 30 days - judgement off the register - reach out to credit agency to get the file updated.


    Question - If I apply for set-aside and in subsequent hearing win the case


    1. would the CCJ be taken off the judgement register?
    2. taken off the credit file or would stay but show as satisfied?
    3. would the set-aside fee get refunded or I'd need to put a claim for that to CEL to recover that?
    4. And if I lose, I take that I'd have to pay CEL + set-aside can't be recovered / refunded?
    • Quentin
    • By Quentin 30th Nov 16, 9:58 AM
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    Quentin
    1. Yes

    2. A satisfied ccj means the defendant paid off the ccj in full outside of 30 days from the date of judgement. If you win a set aside your credit file should remove it, and if not you will be able to get them to remove it.

    3. You would need to pursue the claimant to refund your costs for the set aside. You would need to win the subsequent second claim case to have a case for them to pay your set aside costs

    4. Yes
    • bowcreek
    • By bowcreek 30th Nov 16, 11:57 AM
    • 55 Posts
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    bowcreek
    Just paid it off online . Most bizzare system ever for taking online payments. Just entered the details and on next screen it said "Payment made". When I clicked on "Print Receipt" - it showed a database error. Seriously a con company !


    Didn't ask for e-mail etc. to send confirmation off to me. But now when I check outstanding due, it says £0. Hope its all legit.
    • Carthesis
    • By Carthesis 30th Nov 16, 12:29 PM
    • 524 Posts
    • 898 Thanks
    Carthesis
    The original amount claimed there looks dodgy too.

    They've claimed the court fee (£35) and the maximum solicitors costs (£50), but the £200+ "original debt" plus interest looks well iffy to me.

    How much d'you want to bet that includes the debt-collector "fee" and a load of other nonsense as well?
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 1st Dec 16, 12:24 AM
    • 46,961 Posts
    • 60,323 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Now I would consider a claim against CEL for damages for distress, for misuse of your data because registered keepers cannot be held liable outwith the POFA. They were only able to obtain your data for the purpose of enquiring as to who was driving, no more. There is no lawful presumption that the keeper is the driver so they had no cause of action and made no attempt to locate you at your new address and could not assume a keeper is liable.

    For £25 claim fee on MCOL (play them at their own game) I think you can claim £300:

    http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/2016/11/smart-parking-settle-out-of-court-for.html

    CEL do NOT have poFA wording on their PCNs and can only chgase drivers, not make assumptions with data supplied only for the purpose of enquiring who was driving. Silence from a keeper does not make them liable and nor does the fact you had to settle to avoid a CCJ, this was paid without admission and clearly, as a result you have suffered monetary loss. Claim it back and more, under the DPA misuse of data argument (I would).

    HTH
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 01-12-2016 at 12:27 AM.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • bowcreek
    • By bowcreek 2nd Dec 16, 10:09 AM
    • 55 Posts
    • 9 Thanks
    bowcreek
    Now I would consider a claim against CEL for damages for distress, for misuse of your data because registered keepers cannot be held liable outwith the POFA. They were only able to obtain your data for the purpose of enquiring as to who was driving, no more. There is no lawful presumption that the keeper is the driver so they had no cause of action and made no attempt to locate you at your new address and could not assume a keeper is liable.

    For £25 claim fee on MCOL (play them at their own game) I think you can claim £300:

    http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/2016/11/smart-parking-settle-out-of-court-for.html

    CEL do NOT have poFA wording on their PCNs and can only chgase drivers, not make assumptions with data supplied only for the purpose of enquiring who was driving. Silence from a keeper does not make them liable and nor does the fact you had to settle to avoid a CCJ, this was paid without admission and clearly, as a result you have suffered monetary loss. Claim it back and more, under the DPA misuse of data argument (I would).

    HTH
    Originally posted by Coupon-mad

    Thanks. I'd start to look into this as soon as this all gets updated on my records.


    I've sent screenshots etc. to County court via mails showing I've made the payment in full on 30th November on claimant's website. Though when I called them to follow up this morning, they said claimant needs to notify them directly about this.


    When I asked if its going to be a problem to get CCJ removed from records if Claimant takes their own good time to come back and confirm to court and it goes beyond 30 days from judgement date - they said no, you're supposed to pay within a calendar month and even if they take longer to come back to court, CCJ can still be cancelled, as long as claimant confirms it was paid within a month !


    In unlikely case, if they don't confirm to court at all then I can pay £15 to court to apply for cancellation after which they give the claimant to respond to court within a month and if they don't, it gets cancelled automatically.


    Looking at CEL's conduct, I don't think they are going to be easy at all even now !


    Do you have any suggestions for me at this stage, something I should do etc. to cover myself off?
    • Quentin
    • By Quentin 2nd Dec 16, 10:21 AM
    • 31,513 Posts
    • 15,528 Thanks
    Quentin
    AS posted you could write to them with a SAE and ask them to confirm your payment is received (maybe enclose a receipt filled out with all details and the case number for them to simply sign and date and return)
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 2nd Dec 16, 2:23 PM
    • 46,961 Posts
    • 60,323 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    The landowner who employed CEL might be an easier target because they are liable for the actions of their agent, including any misuse of DPA data, which is what you would be suing over. You can't sue randomly 'to reclaim CCJ money' as such, you;d have to word the claim to be suing for distress caused by the DPA breach of misusing data supplied by the DVLA for one purpose only.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • bowcreek
    • By bowcreek 3rd May 17, 10:36 AM
    • 55 Posts
    • 9 Thanks
    bowcreek
    Location found
    Hi Members - I had recently received another CCJ from same company which I again decided to pay and deal with later if possible.


    Long story short, this made me think really hard where could these CCJs be originating from and it was basically a fitness centre I used to go to. How I know is because CEL manages their parking. I spoke to Branch manager and told him the story and distress this has caused and he asked me to send a mail with details so that he can try to deal with it because I'm concerned there could well be more on the way for me because I visited that place fairly regularly obviously.


    Their sign board in parking says "All visitors must register for a permit at reception" which I read as something you do once being a member of the club but on the contrary when I spoke to the manager he said you are supposed to be doing it every time you visit which is weird as their sign doesn't clarify that and for this reason I only did it once when I was member and kept parking on basis of that going forward !


    Should I write to the manager or to top officials if I can find details and copy him in? I'd like to bring this to their notice and top priority would be to stop anymore CCJs from coming in.


    Please can you suggest?
    • beamerguy
    • By beamerguy 3rd May 17, 10:43 AM
    • 5,301 Posts
    • 6,735 Thanks
    beamerguy
    Hi Members - I had recently received another CCJ from same company which I again decided to pay and deal with later if possible.


    Long story short, this made me think really hard where could these CCJs be originating from and it was basically a fitness centre I used to go to. How I know is because CEL manages their parking. I spoke to Branch manager and told him the story and distress this has caused and he asked me to send a mail with details so that he can try to deal with it because I'm concerned there could well be more on the way for me because I visited that place fairly regularly obviously.


    Their sign board in parking says "All visitors must register for a permit at reception" which I read as something you do once being a member of the club but on the contrary when I spoke to the manager he said you are supposed to be doing it every time you visit which is weird as their sign doesn't clarify that and for this reason I only did it once when I was member and kept parking on basis of that going forward !


    Should I write to the manager or to top officials if I can find details and copy him in? I'd like to bring this to their notice and top priority would be to stop anymore CCJs from coming in.


    Please can you suggest?
    Originally posted by bowcreek
    Understanding how you get a CCJ is the key to your question.

    If you fail to go to court regarding a claim, the PPC will get a default judgement against you
    You get 28 days to pay and if you fail .... you get a CCJ.

    This can only result from a court, companies cannot issue CCJ's
    RBS - MNBA - CAPITAL ONE - LLOYDS

    DISGUSTING BEHAVIOUR
    • bowcreek
    • By bowcreek 3rd May 17, 10:51 AM
    • 55 Posts
    • 9 Thanks
    bowcreek
    Understanding how you get a CCJ is the key to your question.

    If you fail to go to court regarding a claim, the PPC will get a default judgement against you
    You get 28 days to pay and if you fail .... you get a CCJ.

    This can only result from a court, companies cannot issue CCJ's
    Originally posted by beamerguy

    Thanks. Yes I do understand how I got CCJ. I'm trying to find from members who were posting earlier on this thread if the firm who appoints PPC to manage can / should intervene and help?
    • beamerguy
    • By beamerguy 3rd May 17, 10:59 AM
    • 5,301 Posts
    • 6,735 Thanks
    beamerguy
    Thanks. Yes I do understand how I got CCJ. I'm trying to find from members who were posting earlier on this thread if the firm who appoints PPC to manage can / should intervene and help?
    Originally posted by bowcreek
    The companies who employ the PPC can be approached and maybe get it cancelled before it goes to court but .....

    They cannot help with a CCJ and all you can do is appeal the CCJ to the court which currently will cost you £255
    You will be required to provide good reasons why ??
    RBS - MNBA - CAPITAL ONE - LLOYDS

    DISGUSTING BEHAVIOUR
    • bowcreek
    • By bowcreek 3rd May 17, 12:59 PM
    • 55 Posts
    • 9 Thanks
    bowcreek
    Yes - but can they ask them not to pursue any more cases against me given the signage wasn't clear and I reached out to let them know about the potential confusion?
    • bowcreek
    • By bowcreek 17th May 17, 12:15 PM
    • 55 Posts
    • 9 Thanks
    bowcreek
    I know the source now
    I checked their signage in car park which says "We may contact the DVLA to request the Registered Keeper's details in order to send Parking Charge Notices".


    I don't know how their notices look like as I never received one. Is there an evidence that they don't use the working you described?


    I've now noticed a 3rd CCJ from them on credit file
    • bowcreek
    • By bowcreek 17th May 17, 12:17 PM
    • 55 Posts
    • 9 Thanks
    bowcreek
    As a background, please see post below.


    I've received 2 x CCJs from CEL for last 5 months, one after another. Both were judgements by default, because they kept sending letters and notices to my old address. They then took this to court and since the address on the claim was same old address, court sent the letter to same address as provided by the claimant. As a result of no response, Northampton county court issued CCJ on both occasions.

    I came to know about both of these CCJs whilst checking my Credit file which was luckily only few days after the date of judgement. I contacted court on priority and because there were no details of place, reason etc. in the claim form copy I requested from the court, I decided to make payment in full for both CCJs within 1 month of their respective date of judgements for sake of having clean records.

    Having received 2 claims from same company I decided to investigate and recently found out that this parking firm managed the car park of the establishment I was member of and hence visited regularly. The signage said "All Visitors must register for a permit at reception". Which I took as being a member to be done once and hence didn't do it every time which is what they seem to be expecting (speaking to the manager of the centre), which potentially would have been the reason they sent notices in first place. I’ve now brought these to attention of the Branch manager of establishment asking to intervene with the parking firm and make sure if there is any more such parking fines (it’s a free car park) they’ve issued for me to be made void on basis of above explanation. I’m awaiting response on this regard from them, but I did notice that after my conversation about this, the establishment has put clear signs near reception to make "every time" clause to their members/customers clearer, which I never noticed before when CEL started managing the car park to start with.

    So as you know, I (I curse myself for this everyday now) didn't update address on V5C for a few months after moving from that address but the reason was when I was about to do so, couple months after moving, I found that the agent via whom we were renting the new place was fraudulent due to which our tenancy there became uncertain. Though eventually we reported the fraud to police and sorted a new agreement direct with landlord. But since the new contract was signed on a rolling basis for every 3 months, I didn't change the address in case we were to move out soon again. In brief, the address on V5C wasn't changed for nearly a year. Its been up to date as we moved to our new permanent address since November 2016.

    I've now noticed a 3rd one on credit file and it has left me so worried and wondering if my future is all going to be full of these judgement because of this company! I've never had to deal with such things ever before.

    I have a few questions please, before I decide to take a way forward, but it would have to be fairly quickly as its been around a week since last CCJ was issued:

    1. Does the establishment whose car park they manage, being the landowner have to help me cancel any more of these which might be on way, on ground of my confusion over unclear sign? Or am I being total stupid to misinterpret the signs?
    2. Before progressing I'd like to check some facts regarding court process. If I apply for set aside,

    a] and court doesn't accept set-aside request- which means I'd have to pay. Would it be shown as "Satisfied" if I pay after, because it would be out of one month period and original date of judgement will remain in place?
    b] and CCJ gets set-aside for further hearing - and I lose in subsequent hearing - Would it be shown as "Satisfied" if I pay after, because it would be out of one month period and original date of judgement will remain in place?
    c] failing the challenge in court - would it mean I can't even get CEL to send the notices to my new address, so that I can defend them via POPLA etc. before they become judgements?

    3. Does failure to change V5 supersede any subsequent chance of winning this although the whole confusion would have been because of unclear signs, as I understood them to start with?
    4. In any case, because I know there could be more of these fines resulting to default judgements in coming months, I'd at least like to find the best way to legally notify CEL that any subsequent notice they MUST send to my new address, so that I can avoid more of these becoming judgements !!
    Last edited by bowcreek; 23-05-2017 at 3:49 PM.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 17th May 17, 10:36 PM
    • 46,961 Posts
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    Coupon-mad
    1. Does the establishment whose car park they manage, being the landowner have to help me cancel any more of these which might be on way, on ground of my confusion over unclear sign?
    No they don't have to help you. You can complain, but they might not help and can't do anything about a CCJ in default; only you can.

    Or am I being total stupid to misinterpret the signs?
    No, this happens all the time and this is why parking firms make their signs like they do! Think about it...they don't WANT people to see the terms and it's in their interests if people don't.


    2. Before progressing I'd like to check some facts regarding court process. If I apply for set aside,
    a] and court doesn't accept set-aside request- which means I'd have to pay. Would it be shown as "Satisfied" if I pay after, because it would be out of one month period and original date of judgement will remain in place?
    I've never seen a CEL one not set aside and would be surprised if it was refused - but really, you MUST learn not to talk about the signs and who was driving, it's not about that!

    You need to read saggi's thread for how to do this well.


    b] and CCJ gets set-aside for further hearing - and I lose in subsequent hearing - Would it be shown as "Satisfied" if I pay after, because it would be out of one month period and original date of judgement will remain in place?
    Not as far as I know, if you apply well within the month. LoadsofChildren123 will know.


    c] failing the challenge in court - would it mean I can't even get CEL to send the notices to my new address, so that I can defend them via POPLA etc. before they become judgements?
    If you get the recent CCJ set aside, you could then defend the claim (not at POPLA, but at a hearing) and there would be no CCJ even if you lost the case, then paid the smaller amount due = this would be less than the judgment sum.

    3. Does failure to change V5 supersede any subsequent chance of winning this although the whole confusion would have been because of unclear signs, as I understood them to start with?
    No. Your delay in changing the V5 is understandable, you explained it to us and it's not unreasonable. This is NOT about how you understood the signs. It's not about admitting you were driving!


    4. In any case, because I know there could be more of these fines resulting to default judgements in coming months, I'd at least like to find the best way to legally notify CEL that any subsequent notice they MUST send to my new address, so that I can avoid more of these becoming judgements !!
    Email them right now and tell them your new address and forbid them to write to the old address. NOTHING about not seeing the signs or who was driving NOTHING about that. Keep proof of sending the email (a copy in a file).

    You might also like to pay £10 for a SAR which will help you defend the case:

    https://bmpa.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/206890469-6-Subject-Access-Requests-Easy-

    That means they have to show you ALL the data they hold about you/the car, with dates and details & photos, etc.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

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