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  • FIRST POST
    • infernouk
    • By infernouk 31st Oct 16, 11:17 PM
    • 166Posts
    • 77Thanks
    infernouk
    PCM Ticket whilst parked outside a friends house visiting, do i pay?
    • #1
    • 31st Oct 16, 11:17 PM
    PCM Ticket whilst parked outside a friends house visiting, do i pay? 31st Oct 16 at 11:17 PM
    Hey guys

    I was at a friends house for an hour today parked outside their house at around 7pm, ive done this before, but this time i came out to find a PCM parking ticket for £60 on my window!

    They claim its a permit only area 24/7 (theres no markings or bays etc its just a cul de sac street) and I didnt have a permit (Friend has one for me to use just we didnt think it mattered that late at night and with no bay or line markings)

    There may have been signs around, it was 7pm and pitch black so I didnt see anything and have visited before with no issue so it cant be patrolled regularly.

    I was wondering is this something to pay or fight? what are PCM like? we have permits for the house just it wasnt in the window and this isnt enforced frequently in the area, theres no other parking nearby either so i cant see how this is even unavoidable!

    Thanks for the advice im a little annoyed and confused!
Page 8
    • infernouk
    • By infernouk 28th May 17, 12:26 PM
    • 166 Posts
    • 77 Thanks
    infernouk
    thanks I will post this off today, having read through it its much more concise!
    • infernouk
    • By infernouk 9th Jul 17, 10:26 PM
    • 166 Posts
    • 77 Thanks
    infernouk
    Hey guys,

    So just got my court date letter through for August and need to submit witness statements.

    Is there a template I can send to my witnesses rather than providing them a long list of formatting requirements? As its a lot to ask of people to read and complete it all when it isn't their case. Otherwise ill try to construct my own

    Also is there a point i can request the judge rule on all our houses tickets as they are all under the same circumstance and all in the small claims system, i have permission from those parties to do so if possible.

    Thanks, and i assume theres nothing more I can do at this stage than gather statements and learn my defence ready for the day? No new relevant information?
    • Quentin
    • By Quentin 9th Jul 17, 10:34 PM
    • 32,808 Posts
    • 16,839 Thanks
    Quentin
    You can't get a ruling on other people's court claims as part of your hearing if that's what you mean
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 9th Jul 17, 10:37 PM
    • 14,573 Posts
    • 22,931 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    Have you checked post #2 of the NEWBIES FAQ sticky, which covers every angle concerning preparation for a small claims court case?
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • infernouk
    • By infernouk 10th Jul 17, 9:42 PM
    • 166 Posts
    • 77 Thanks
    infernouk
    You can't get a ruling on other people's court claims as part of your hearing if that's what you mean
    Originally posted by Quentin
    Yes thats what i meant, as it seems a waste of court time to hear the same case 4 times!
    • Redx
    • By Redx 10th Jul 17, 9:46 PM
    • 15,516 Posts
    • 19,601 Thanks
    Redx
    there may be a way of consolidating them into one hearing , or possibly getting some stayed pending the outcome of one or more test hearing(s)

    like this ongoing case here

    https://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/2017/07/wright-hassall-blow-7000-of-indigos.html
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 10th Jul 17, 9:55 PM
    • 50,098 Posts
    • 63,478 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Yes you can find a template WS for the resident to use, by googling it - e.g. I think Which? provide one and also the BMPA show you a simple example.

    Remember to show us your own WS as well, and the evidence/case transcripts and any photos (and the tenancy agreement) you intend to file. Does the resident have anything from the time they signed up - e.g. a copy of the advert for the flat, or emails from the landlord, telling them that they have a parking space allocated, or a first-come-first served right to park in a general area?
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • infernouk
    • By infernouk 10th Jul 17, 10:43 PM
    • 166 Posts
    • 77 Thanks
    infernouk
    Yes you can find a template WS for the resident to use, by googling it - e.g. I think Which? provide one and also the BMPA show you a simple example.

    Remember to show us your own WS as well, and the evidence/case transcripts and any photos (and the tenancy agreement) you intend to file. Does the resident have anything from the time they signed up - e.g. a copy of the advert for the flat, or emails from the landlord, telling them that they have a parking space allocated, or a first-come-first served right to park in a general area?
    Originally posted by Coupon-mad
    Should my statement just recall the events from my perspective and mention point si feel are relevant? wasnt that basically my defence?

    I have a couple of signage pics, and the tenancy agreement they were provided as the sole documentation they signed, there is no contact with the landlord as its through a letting agent. I have an email from the agent stating the generally difficult and poor state of parking in the area but that they wont file a complete witness statement as its against their business interest, so not sure I can use the email?

    There is no mention of parking in the general area anywhere, its literally a retrospective letter from PCM that no one signed, and their signage in the area, no mention when renting the house, nothing signed with it on
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 10th Jul 17, 11:24 PM
    • 50,098 Posts
    • 63,478 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Should my statement just recall the events from my perspective and mention point si feel are relevant? wasn't that basically my defence?
    Yes, and in some ways it will re-state your defence.

    You can ask for the cases to be consolidated, as bargepole did for the PCM cases:

    http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/2016/04/pcm-uk-signage-does-not-create-contract.html

    You need to write it into your WS and so do the others, and maybe submit them all to the local court together, with a covering letter addressed to the presiding Judge, asking that the claims are heard either together or sequentially, to avoid a waste of the court's time.

    No guarantee your local Judge will agree but all parties could write (together) citing all the claim numbers, to request it.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • infernouk
    • By infernouk 14th Jul 17, 12:24 PM
    • 166 Posts
    • 77 Thanks
    infernouk
    Hey guys, just received the witness statement from PCM/Gladstone, quite long to post here but its surprisingly well details so im a bit more nervous that there could be issue? Its a lot to defend from! What are you guys perceptions? In addition to this there is a letter showing request for PCM to operate on the land by the land manager, the signage, an area map, the ticket, a letter chain from themselves to me and pics. Here is part 1...

    The Defence
    4. Firstly, I would like to point to the court that the Defendant’s Defence is a template Defence which is heavily circulated on the internet.
    Charge is excessive/ no loss suffered
    5. The charge sought is industry standard and is set at a rate so as to suitably satisfy my Company’s legitimate interest. In the case of ParkingEye v Beavis 2015 it was held that an £85.00 charge was neither extravagant nor unconscionable. The Accredited Trade Associations of which parking operators must be a member in order to apply for DVLA data prescribe a maximum charge of £100. My Company’s charges are within this level. The charge is not, therefore, excessive.
    Particulars of Claim
    6. The Claim was issued via the County Court Business Centre which is a procedure specifically provided for in the Civil Procedure Rules. This only allows the Claimant to insert brief details of the Claim. In any event, I can confirm that the Particulars of Claim contained sufficient information for the Defendant to be aware of what the claim relates to; namely:-
    i) The date of the charge;
    ii) The vehicle registration number;
    iii) The Parking Charge Notice number;
    iv) The amount outstanding;
    v) That is relates to parking charges; and
    vi) That it is debt.
    7. Further, prior to proceedings being issued the Defendant was sent notices in accordance with the Act and a Letter Before Claim. As such, the Defendant would have been aware of the charge which is the subject of this claim.
    8. Further, I have been advised by Gladstones Solicitors Limited that they did receive a reply to the Letter before Claim from the Defendant whereby he questioned the sum of £150.00 sought. My Company responded to the Defendant on 2017 whereby it was advised that £100.00 is the charge as stipulated on the signs and the additional £50.00 is a result of the Defendant failing to pay the charge within the 28 days. As such, the Defendant was aware as to why the sum of £150.00 is sought.
    Quiet enjoyment of the Land
    9.
    The Defendants refers to a lease and a tenancy agreement giving him quiet enjoyment on the Relevant Land, however, the Defendant has not provided any documentation in support. Nevertheless my Company has been instructed to manage the Relevant Land and without concession the Defendant has failed to prove otherwise.
    10. Further the Defendant, in his appeal, stated he had a permit for his car. By accepting / receiving a permit from my Company, he bound himself to the parking scheme which was in part for his benefit. In taking this benefit (i.e. in having the parking bay managed), the Defendant must accept his part to play, which was to simply display a permit. At no time after the scheme was introduced and prior to the first parking charge being issued was my Company made aware that there was any objections to the scheme.
    11. There are sufficient signs on the Relevant Land that clearly stipulate the parking conditions and the requirement to display a permit when parked. The photographs also evidence that the Defendant parked to the side and in front of one of my Company’s signs and therefore I can think of no reasonable explanation as to why it would not have been noticed.
    12. What is more, without concession, even in the unlikely event the Defendant didn’t see the signs I submit they ought to have done so. As Lord Justice Roch observed in the Court of Appeal case of Vine v London Borough of Waltham Forrest 2000,
    “Once it is established that sufficient and adequate warning notices were in place, a car driver cannot be heard to say that he or she did not see the notice. Were that to be the law, it would be too easy for car drivers who trespass with their cars to evade the only method land owners have of stopping the unauthorised parking of cars in parking spaces or parking areas on their property”
    13. All motorists parked must display a permit. There is an implied five minute grace period provided for motorists to obtain a permit to display. At no point when the charge was being processed did the driver return to his vehicle with a permit to display.
    The Contract
    14. The Defendant suggests there was no contract as there was no offer to park and that the signs are forbidding. This is rejected.
    15. The rules of interpretation require simply that the parties knew of their obligations to one- another. The Defendant was offered to use the Land and thereafter either follow the rules and park for free or in breach of the rules agree to pay £100. The rules here just so happen to be that to park, they need to display a valid permit.
    16. The case law demonstrates that the precise terminology used on the signs is not necessarily of importance and it should be interpreted in such a way that gives efficacy to the agreement.
    17. In Alder v Moore (1961), the defendant was a footballer who suffered an injury. The insurer who was the claimant paid out £500 under the defendant’s policy. Upon receipt of the money the defendant agreed that in consideration he would “agree [to] take no part as a playing member of any form of professional football and that in the event of infringement of this condition [he] will be subject to a penalty of £500.” The defendant later resumed a professional playing career and the insurers sought to recover the alleged ‘penalty’ sum.
    • infernouk
    • By infernouk 14th Jul 17, 12:26 PM
    • 166 Posts
    • 77 Thanks
    infernouk
    part 2

    18. The Court of Appeal concluded that the defendant had not promised to not play football again and the amount was therefore recoverable because there was no breach of contract. The use of the term, ‘Penalty’, was not therefore definitive of the legal nature of the sum payable. As Lord Justice Sellers observed,
    “The sole concern of the underwriters, for whose protection the document alone came into existence, was not to stop the defendant from playing professional football again but to recover their £500 if he did so and thereby established conclusively that he had never at any time been permanently totally disabled from doing so.

    It seems to me quite unrealistic to construe the document as imposing a contractual ban upon the defendant from playing professional football again. I should have thought that the underwriters would welcome his doing so, since that was their only hope of recovering their £500. They certainly not recover it, however fit the defendant became to play professional football again, if he retired from playing it or if he played football again but confined himself to the amateur game.”
    The Court held that;
    “notwithstanding the word "penalty" used in the declaration, the obligation imposed on the defendant was to reimburse the underwriters that which they had paid on a basis proved to be false by events; the payment was neither an imposition of a fine nor a penal payment and, accordingly, was recoverable from the defendant”.
    19. The court concluded that one should consider the obligations imposed by the agreement, not the terminology used i.e. the agreement’s substance, not form.
    20. The principles in this case are the same as in the Parking Eye case, save that in the Parking Eye case, as the particular parking rules were different, the rule breached was that motorists must leave the site within 2 hours, whereas here, as set out above, the rule was to display a valid permit.
    21. The Court may conclude that the Land is managed as follows; the Claimant grants a contractual license to all; this license allows anyone permission to be on the Land. This is inferred by the nature of the land and the lack of any general prohibition of entry on the signage. In this regard, the Defendant (as were all the motorists) was offered to comply with the normal conditions (as clear on the sign), or park otherwise than in accordance with the normal conditions and incur a £100 charge. The acceptance was at the point the Defendant decided to park, having read the sign, and his consideration was the promise to pay £100 for the privilege of parking outside the normal conditions. The Claimant’s consideration is the provision of parking services.
    22. I refer to the Court to Judge Hegarty’s comments in ParkingEye v Somerfield (2011) that “If this is the price payable for the privilege, it does not seem to me that it can be regarded as a penalty, even though it is substantial and obviously intended to discourage motorists from leaving their cars on the car park”.
    23. Alternatively; it could be concluded that, any person can use the Land provided they do not exceed the licensed activity as set out on the sign and in failing to comply with the license granted to them, they in turn agree to the Claimant’s entirely distinct offer from that license which is ‘to park otherwise than in accordance with the license for a charge of £100’.
    No authority to enforce charges
    24. As the contract is between my Company and the Defendant, my Company does have the authority to enforce parking charges. However, both VCS v HM Revenue & Customs (2013) and Parking Eye v Beavis (CA 2015) made it clear that a contracting party need not show they have a right to do what they have promised in the performance of a contract, nor is (in the case of a parking operator) the agreement between Operator and Landowner of any relevance. In any event, and without concession, the Agreement exhibited to this Witness Statement evidences

    my Company’s authorisation to operate / manage the Relevant Land on behalf of the Landowner.
    25. Lord Justice Lewison commented in VCS v HM Revenue & Customs [2013] EWCA Civ 186
    1. “The Upper Tribunal’s reasoning on this part of the case was that since VCS did not have the right under its contract with the car park owner to grant a licence to park, it could not have contracted with the motorist to grant such a right. In my judgment there is a serious flaw in this reasoning.
    2. The flaw in the reasoning is that it confuses the making of a contract with the power to perform it. There is no legal impediment to my contracting to sell you Buckingham Palace. If (inevitably) I fail to honour my contract then I can be sued for damages. On the stock market it is commonplace for traders to sell short; in other words to sell shares that they do not own in the hope of buying them later at a lower price. In order to perform the contract the trader will have to acquire the required number of shares after the contract of sale is made. Moreover, in some cases a contracting party may not only be able to contract to confer rights over property that he does not own, but may also be able to perform the contract without acquiring any such right. Thus in Bruton v London and Quadrant Housing Trust [2000] 1 AC 406 a housing trust with no interest in land was held to have validly granted a tenancy of the land to a residential occupier. The tenancy would not have been binding on the landowner, but bound the two contracting parties in precisely the same way as it would have done if the grantor had had an interest in the land.
    Thus in my judgment the Upper Tribunal were wrong to reverse the decision of the FTT on the question whether VCS had the power to enter into a contract. Having the power to enter into a contract does not, of course, mean that VCS necessarily did enter into a contract with the motorist to permit parking”
    The Current Debt
    26. In view of the Defendant not paying the charge within the 28 days allowed they are in breach of the contract. Breach of contract entitles the innocent party to damages as of right in addition to the parking charge incurred.
    27. In view of the Defendant not paying the charge the matter was passed to my Company’s legal representatives, Gladstones Solicitors Ltd. The debt has, as a result of this referral risen as my Company’s staff have spent time and material in facilitating the recovery of this debt. This time could have been better spent on other elements of my Company’s business. My Company believes the costs associated with such time spent were incurred naturally as a direct result of the Defendant’s breach and as such asks that this element of the claim be awarded as a damage. The costs claimed are a pre-determined and nominal contribution to the actual losses. Alternatively, my Company does have a right to costs pursuant to the sign (i.e. the contract).
    • infernouk
    • By infernouk 14th Jul 17, 12:37 PM
    • 166 Posts
    • 77 Thanks
    infernouk
    primarily it seems odd to me they would state that taking a permit was the same as signing a contract, and then reference the sign as a contract despite previously saying in the statement that the wording on the sign isnt of importance, hence they are arguing that you dont need to sign a contract and its wording isnt important???
    Last edited by infernouk; 14-07-2017 at 12:40 PM.
    • DoaM
    • By DoaM 14th Jul 17, 12:42 PM
    • 3,198 Posts
    • 3,241 Thanks
    DoaM
    #4 So what? The defendant is perfectly entitled to seek support from anywhere they like! Everything PCM/Gladstones have done to date have been templates. Even the court claim was a robo-claim.
    Diary of a madman
    Walk the line again today
    Entries of confusion
    Dear diary, I'm here to stay
    • DoaM
    • By DoaM 14th Jul 17, 12:43 PM
    • 3,198 Posts
    • 3,241 Thanks
    DoaM
    primarily it seems odd to me they would state that taking a permit was the same as signing a contract, and then reference the sign as a contract despite previously saying in the statement that the wording on the sign isnt of importance, hence they are arguing that you dont need to sign a contract and its wording isnt important???
    Originally posted by infernouk
    This blog from Pranky may be useful.

    http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/2017/07/ukpc-lose-residential-case-tenant-can.html
    Diary of a madman
    Walk the line again today
    Entries of confusion
    Dear diary, I'm here to stay
    • infernouk
    • By infernouk 14th Jul 17, 12:46 PM
    • 166 Posts
    • 77 Thanks
    infernouk
    so i shouldn't be worried? it seemed quite aggressive, and yes very templated ironically! (its surely different for a non legal professional to seek internet help than a law firm ha!)
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 14th Jul 17, 12:53 PM
    • 50,098 Posts
    • 63,478 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    It's the same as all the other Witness Statements written by Gladstones recently, have a look round, they are a template. In this one, they even left in stuff about 'Heath Parade' (a PCM site) in a WS signed by a completely different parking firm saying it was a statement of truth within her personal knowledge:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5510516&page=2

    I did have a chuckle about how the witness (in that linked case) was going to explain the football analogy in Alder v Moore (and I speak as a female football fan, not suggesting all women are clueless about the beautiful game, but suggesting that the case makes no real sense in this context and would be funny to see a witness wriggle around trying to explain something they didn't write!).
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • DoaM
    • By DoaM 14th Jul 17, 12:54 PM
    • 3,198 Posts
    • 3,241 Thanks
    DoaM
    Other's will be able to confirm whether or not you still can, but you should look to try and include that case reference into your defence somehow as it seems (to me) to be directly relevant to your case.
    Diary of a madman
    Walk the line again today
    Entries of confusion
    Dear diary, I'm here to stay
    • infernouk
    • By infernouk 14th Jul 17, 12:56 PM
    • 166 Posts
    • 77 Thanks
    infernouk
    It's the same as all the other Witness Statements written by Gladstones recently, have a look round, they are a template. In this one, they even left in stuff about 'Heath Parade' (a PCM site) in a WS signed by a completely different parking firm saying it was a statement of truth within her personal knowledge:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5510516&page=2

    I did have a chuckle about how the witness (in that linked case) was going to explain the football analogy in Alder v Moore (and I speak as a female football fan, not suggesting all women are clueless about the beautiful game, but suggesting that the case makes no real sense in this context and would be funny to see a witness wriggle around trying to explain something they didn't write!).
    Originally posted by Coupon-mad
    too be fair the football thing threw me as i thought they accidentally copy pasted it from a different case until i read on!

    So is there any specific changes I need to make in combat to this for my own statement? or do i just follow what was set out in my defence despite their attempts to debunk it? Im a bit more nervous having actually seen some substantial content from them now rather than the bare minimum!
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 14th Jul 17, 1:11 PM
    • 50,098 Posts
    • 63,478 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Have a look at the efforts made by Matthew87 in his thread, his OneDrive still shows his method of attack (including the matter of Rights of Audience, to ambush the rep on the day).
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • infernouk
    • By infernouk 15th Jul 17, 4:41 PM
    • 166 Posts
    • 77 Thanks
    infernouk
    Have a look at the efforts made by Matthew87 in his thread, his OneDrive still shows his method of attack (including the matter of Rights of Audience, to ambush the rep on the day).
    Originally posted by Coupon-mad
    Hey there

    I have written my statement, but unsure the best way to share it? at this stage am i able to post a fully non redacted version with my evidences online? As i assume i have to share it to Gladstone regardless?

    if so here is the statement along with the agreement and 2 other statements:
    https://www.dropbox.com/sh/me8kyef9w43msk6/AAD3cYJ2CjRrdYdVbpS-QP7Ua?dl=0
    Last edited by infernouk; 15-07-2017 at 4:45 PM.
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