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    • Jimpoplay
    • By Jimpoplay 26th Oct 16, 10:58 PM
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    Jimpoplay
    Value of estate?
    • #1
    • 26th Oct 16, 10:58 PM
    Value of estate? 26th Oct 16 at 10:58 PM
    My partner passed away last year, intestate.
    Letters of administration were obtained, this stated estate gross value not exceeding £325,000
    Estate net value not exceeding £6000
    A death benefit of approximately £70000 was paid to estate.
    There were debts of approximately £65000
    There was a property held as joint tenants with another person, value of property approximately £400000
    My partner and I were not married/civil partners
    So his mother was next of kin by intestacy rules
    Other person has agreed to sell property with proceeds going to the estate/mother
    The figures on letters of administration are now wrong
    Must they now be changed or are they correct value at time of death
    Will IHT now need to be paid?
Page 2
    • getmore4less
    • By getmore4less 27th Oct 16, 6:20 PM
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    getmore4less
    DOD?? Date of death?
    It was valued rather low at £270000
    So half of that figure I guess they used for IHT figure
    Originally posted by Jimpoplay
    What about the mortgage?

    This is getting quite complex and the information is still not sufficient to even answer your relatively simple first question

    Is there anywhere you want to go with this other than get your £20k?
    • Jimpoplay
    • By Jimpoplay 27th Oct 16, 6:36 PM
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    Jimpoplay
    What about the mortgage?

    This is getting quite complex and the information is still not sufficient to even answer your relatively simple first question

    Is there anywhere you want to go with this other than get your £20k?
    Originally posted by getmore4less
    Joint owner paid the outstanding balance on the mortgage , that and other expenses he has incurred total £11000 so far.
    I thought my £20k loan repayment, I was entitled to, that's just a matter of when.
    I would like more than 15% share of estate to reflect our relationship.
    I Don't see why mother is demanding 70% and joint owner is agreeing
    • Yorkshireman99
    • By Yorkshireman99 27th Oct 16, 6:56 PM
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    Yorkshireman99
    Joint owner paid the outstanding balance on the mortgage , that and other expenses he has incurred total £11000 so far.
    I thought my £20k loan repayment, I was entitled to, that's just a matter of when.
    I would like more than 15% share of estate to reflect our relationship.
    I Don't see why mother is demanding 70% and joint owner is agreeing
    Originally posted by Jimpoplay
    It is very harsh but under the intestacy rules it seems you are not entitled to anything from the estate except repayment of the loan.
    • Jimpoplay
    • By Jimpoplay 27th Oct 16, 8:01 PM
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    Jimpoplay
    It is very harsh but under the intestacy rules it seems you are not entitled to anything from the estate except repayment of the loan.
    Originally posted by Yorkshireman99
    I thought there was NOTHING in estate! After debts were paid.
    Are we saying the property IS part of estate then?
    And the issue of the figures on L.O.A??
    • getmore4less
    • By getmore4less 27th Oct 16, 8:07 PM
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    getmore4less
    given the lack of info I have to make some assumptions.

    The 6 month you mentioned probably relates to claims against the estate after grant, not always easy as you have to show financial dependence anyway.
    (that is a very simplified explanation)


    Any beneficial claim you have on the property would not be against the estate in the first instant but against the surviving joint owner.

    The estates claim would probably be of a similar category.

    Do you have anything to support your claim for a beneficial interest in the property?

    As the joint owner contributed nothing to the property I can see why they may have seen reason and avoided the risk failing to defend a claim.

    if you gave the solicitor all the relevant information particularly relating to any beneficial claim on the property they may have called it right.
    • Jimpoplay
    • By Jimpoplay 27th Oct 16, 8:10 PM
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    Jimpoplay
    Is the estate claiming equitable interest "with clean hands"
    • getmore4less
    • By getmore4less 27th Oct 16, 8:35 PM
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    getmore4less
    Is the estate claiming equitable interest "with clean hands"
    Originally posted by Jimpoplay
    what are you trying to ask?
    • Jimpoplay
    • By Jimpoplay 27th Oct 16, 9:52 PM
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    Jimpoplay
    Has their conduct been proper
    • Yorkshireman99
    • By Yorkshireman99 27th Oct 16, 10:11 PM
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    Yorkshireman99
    I thought there was NOTHING in estate! After debts were paid.
    Are we saying the property IS part of estate then?
    And the issue of the figures on L.O.A??
    Originally posted by Jimpoplay
    You seem to expect that you have some claim on the property that forms part of the estate in the sense that half the value has too be included for calculating the IHT liability. From what you have said the vale was wrongly declared but it seems it does not make any difference to any IHT liability that seems to be nil. From what you have said although the administration seems to be somewhat shambolic no real harm has been done though your claim for the loan has been delayed. As far as I can see you have no legal claim for a part of the property but may benefit by a gift of part of the value. As far as I can see you will just have to wait and see.
    • Jimpoplay
    • By Jimpoplay 28th Oct 16, 1:09 AM
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    Jimpoplay
    I would like to say thanks to everybody who has contributed to this thread, for their time and knowledge imparted, THANK YOU ALL.
    I feel hurt and let down by my partners family not seeming to acknowledge our relationship. But I guess my partner and I are to blame for not ratifying our relationship or having any financial planning in place.
    I am certain this is not the scenario my partner would have envisaged.
    If I may ask one more question before we conclude.
    Would the surviving joint tenant (holding title absolute)be within his rights to negotiate an alternative division of proceeds, than the one proposed by the mother?
    • Yorkshireman99
    • By Yorkshireman99 28th Oct 16, 3:49 AM
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    Yorkshireman99
    I would like to say thanks to everybody who has contributed to this thread, for their time and knowledge imparted, THANK YOU ALL.
    I feel hurt and let down by my partners family not seeming to acknowledge our relationship. But I guess my partner and I are to blame for not ratifying our relationship or having any financial planning in place.
    I am certain this is not the scenario my partner would have envisaged.
    If I may ask one more question before we conclude.
    Would the surviving joint tenant (holding title absolute)be within his rights to negotiate an alternative division of proceeds, than the one proposed by the mother?
    Originally posted by Jimpoplay
    It is a desperately sad situation to be left in. It emphasises the importance of everyone making a will and keeping it up to date even from a young age. The surviving joint tenant can dispose of the property as they see fit and have no obligation to gift any of it. Given the circumstances they could give it all to you or grant a life tenancy to you.
    • getmore4less
    • By getmore4less 28th Oct 16, 5:36 AM
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    getmore4less
    Would the surviving joint tenant (holding title absolute)be within his rights to negotiate an alternative division of proceeds, than the one proposed by the mother?

    They(joint tenant) could deal with the property how they wish, BUT they will potentially have the beneficial claim from the estate to deal with

    I suspect that is what they have been told, don't do it our way and we will see you in court.

    It is up to the joint tenant to take the legal advice on the likely success of any claim by the estate.

    similarly if you feel you have a beneficial interest you would need to take legal advice on your position. Would you have enough evidence to show that you have any significant beneficial interest,

    What is not clear(other than a DOV) and I don't intend trying to understand is how they are resolving the situation as there are some potentially complex issues with the tax situation(CGT and IHT) and retrospective severance of the joint tenancy.
    This is not a straight forward beneficiary DOV.

    In your position I think you have to decide.
    do you want to pursue a claim(or try to get the joint tenant to change their position) if not do you want to understand what they are trying to do re the property and the DOV or just sit back and get you 15% + £20k

    As long as you are happy that they deal with any tax issues and you get the 15% free of any liabilities then that may be the time to draw a line.


    What is surprising is that the property was joint tenants in the first place as typically in arrangements of convenience(to get a mortgage) you would do tenants in common and document the beneficial interest to be clear of ownership, not good to have a non resident owner having a beneficial interest they don't need/want as that exposes a CGT liability.
    • Jimpoplay
    • By Jimpoplay 28th Oct 16, 7:01 PM
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    Jimpoplay
    The starting point is that equity follows the law and the parties will be joint tenants in law and equity.
    This presumption will be rebutted by evidence that the parties had a different common intention when the home was purchased, or they later formed a common intention that their shares would change.

    How do I prove beneficial interest , is imputed and inferred intentions enough?
    The fact the loan I made was purely a consideration of our relationship
    It was inferred the home was "ours"
    He had said previously said he would remove joint tenants name and replace with mine
    This same intention would be mother's solicitors basis of relieving the joint tenant of any beneficial interest
    Would these intentions alone , without actual financial proof such as payments to mortgage etc be a basis of any claim I could make
    • Jimpoplay
    • By Jimpoplay 28th Oct 16, 7:15 PM
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    Jimpoplay
    do you want to understand what they are trying to do re the property and the DOV or just sit back and get you 15% + £20k


    Is the mother's solicitor under any obligation to explain this to me?
    Would I have to sign anything to say I accept their offer of 15%. I read she doesn't have to sign an actual deed, a written statement of variation is enough.
    • getmore4less
    • By getmore4less 29th Oct 16, 7:23 AM
    • 30,740 Posts
    • 18,376 Thanks
    getmore4less
    do you want to understand what they are trying to do re the property and the DOV or just sit back and get you 15% + £20k


    Is the mother's solicitor under any obligation to explain this to me?
    Would I have to sign anything to say I accept their offer of 15%. I read she doesn't have to sign an actual deed, a written statement of variation is enough.
    Originally posted by Jimpoplay
    I think it will be the joint owner that is making a variation not the mother. As I said this is not your simple beneficiary variation.
    • Jimpoplay
    • By Jimpoplay 7th Dec 17, 4:57 PM
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    Jimpoplay
    Is this thread still open?
    Can I reopen it?
    • Jimpoplay
    • By Jimpoplay 7th Dec 17, 5:14 PM
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    Jimpoplay
    The property has now been sold, and the joint owner has I fear been misinformed there's no CGT to be paid because it's below £500,000
    He's sitting on the procedes of sale,and the families solicitors refuse to repay my loan ,while we wait to see if he will share
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